[Level 20][Opinion] All Specs Mastery Rundown

[Goesid]

Okey, well thats about time. When are you changing the elemental one which looks even more wrong with the updated scoring criteria.

 

[Siynoth]

After extensive testing can confirm that destro locks mastery scale the best out of all secondaries and crit is kinda bad. Imo mastery verse is the best stat combo for destruction and it has the added benefit that it's usable for affliction as well without having to get a second gear set.

 

[JadeFire]

Haste/Verse scales better than Mastery on a DK Frost or Unholy (and even more so when you simply look at verse increases the damage all around AND you increase the damage from your physical attacks - mastery does nothing there)... multiple people have posted the numbers from inside a BG. The only reason you want to use mastery is if you are running Verse/Mastery as your only secondary stats. I don't see why its not 0/5 for both of them at this point if everybody is stipulating on Haste+One other Secondary.

And obviously verse comes with its own healing/reduction benefits... mastery does nothing.

The math has already been posted... not sure why we are clinging to this shit... it is 0/5... unless the purpose here is to simply show that mastery is ok overall... but, the theme/tone of the thread for a 4/5 rating seems suggest that it is the best and people should build as such.

 

[Chops]

not sure why we are clinging to this shit

Because yall had this conversation 3 months ago and everyone pretty much settled on "the role of UH DK is to CC like mad and then drop a healer with Apoc and mastery helps them do that more reliably"

You can go back and read the whole thing if you're still confused, its only a couple pages back.

 

[JadeFire]

Because yall had this conversation 3 months ago and everyone pretty much settled on "the role of UH DK is to CC like mad and then drop a healer with Apoc and mastery helps them do that more reliably"

You can go back and read the whole thing if you're still confused, its only a couple pages back.

Again, that would be Haste+Verse for that best effect overall... as if that just went away some how after the actual math was posted showing Mastery was worse... because a couple of people don't want to resub/regear (which is basically 90% of the issue around here when it comes to stat arguing). Does it really matter... no... mainly because DK at the end of the day is another meme spec for something like solo shuffle.

 

[Chops]

mainly because DK at the end of the day is another meme spec for something like solo shuffle.

But this isnt true. You just have a very hard time wrapping your head around the idea that not all DPS classes are built to maximize total damage output, but rather some of them are extremely good at one very specific thing.

I'll let Bop take it from here, since he covered very well and I'm not terribly interested in arguing with you yet again about your inability to do anything but sort by "damage done" on a BG scoreboard to decide what is and isnt a good spec.

If you only play Battlegrounds and only have the perspective of trying to make the class fit into a max damage role despite its inherent shortcomings, then yes - going for a build that doesn't revolve around a 90 second cooldown will definitely perform more overall damage in that battleground (For Unholy, at least - for Frost based on your own numbers, it still looks like Mastery is the way to go...).

But that's not what Unholy does better than any other melee, so I'm not sure why we're using a standarized melee dps metric of base ability damage as a comparison between two builds.

Unholy has Apocalypse. It's a very powerful ability at level 20. Geared correctly and with the right setup, Unholy can solo a healer in arena if the healer isn't given heavy peels. There aren't many DPS that can claim that. Unholy can take a lot of losing 1v1 matchups and turn them into wins with Apoc. It's a long cooldown, mastery has marginal benefit outside of Apoc, but it's the best aspect of the spec.

There's different forms of pvp for different folks, I suppose. But I don't feel comfortable giving the best stat at improving the one shining advantage Unholy has over other specs less than a 4/5. It would communicate that Unholy should build to maximize its Festering/Death Strike damage (and healing) - but it would fail to give the more important message: focus on what your class does well, not making up for what it lacks.

 

[Bop]

Okey, well thats about time. When are you changing the elemental one which looks even more wrong with the updated scoring criteria.

Where would you put Ele mastery in the updated scoring? I might have been unclear when I mentioned savant pieces in the 5/5 score criteria - I don't mean full Savant is best, but rather that mastery is strong enough on that spec that you're fine with a few pieces of your gear having no other secondary.

Maybe another way to frame the 5/5 vs. 4/5 score:

5/5 = mastery is the "main" stat you're going for in feverflare/harmonious/peerless
4/5 = mastery is the secondary stat you're going for in FF/Harm/Peer

A 5/5 score isn't meant to be savant = bis.

Haste/Verse scales better than Mastery on a DK Frost or Unholy (and even more so when you simply look at verse increases the damage all around AND you increase the damage from your physical attacks - mastery does nothing there)... multiple people have posted the numbers from inside a BG. The only reason you want to use mastery is if you are running Verse/Mastery as your only secondary stats. I don't see why its not 0/5 for both of them at this point if everybody is stipulating on Haste+One other Secondary.

And obviously verse comes with its own healing/reduction benefits... mastery does nothing.

The math has already been posted... not sure why we are clinging to this shit... it is 0/5... unless the purpose here is to simply show that mastery is ok overall... but, the theme/tone of the thread for a 4/5 rating seems suggest that it is the best and people should build as such.

This has been discussed in great detail before. Mastery has high damage scaling per mastery point for DKs. I moved it from a 5/5 (1st stat prio) to a 4/5 (2nd stat prio) after seeing the numbers last time we had this discussion.

I would have this same discussion over Feral Mastery, which itself is even a 5/5 score in this thread. With Vers will you be a more well rounded Feral druid? Sure.

But everything that your spec does outside of the specific playstyle afforded by mastery is absolutely not competitive. The thing that both Feral and UH dk can do with mastery is a unique upside - that is, very high pressure in a very small window.

It comes down to a difference in gearing philosophy - and this is ultimately an opinion post.
[Philosophy 1] = I want to make my character as strong as possible in as many situations as possible. I play that character because I like it, even if what it does is done better by other characters.
[Philosophy 2] = I want to maximize strengths unique to my character. I want to play that character in any way that it will outshine other characters.

I am more in Philosophy #2 - I don't like the venn diagram circle of what my character does to be entirely within the circle of another spec or class. And before you say "hunters" --> I don't really include hunters in this analysis. They're an endgame class at level 20. Of course they outperform everything. I view Philosophy #1 as sort of chasing the bar set by hunters, which we will never reach.

 

[Goesid]

Where would you put Ele mastery in the updated scoring? I might have been unclear when I mentioned savant pieces in the 5/5 score criteria - I don't mean full Savant is best, but rather that mastery is strong enough on that spec that you're fine with a few pieces of your gear having no other secondary.

Maybe another way to frame the 5/5 vs. 4/5 score:

5/5 = mastery is the "main" stat you're going for in feverflare/harmonious/peerless
4/5 = mastery is the secondary stat you're going for in FF/Harm/Peer

A 5/5 score isn't meant to be savant = bis.

4 probably. You want alot of mastery, but you dont want to sacrifice stats for it, so Savant on stuff like rings, neck, cloak and wrists is good but you dont want to use greens on other slots sacrificing the int, unless youre going for the terts. Ele mastery is tricky because its the only dps mastery that does not increase your damage or the atleast some of your spells, so if you lack int, it doesnt matter if you proc mastery rng procs because they dont do any damage.

 

[JadeFire]

Where would you put Ele mastery in the updated scoring? I might have been unclear when I mentioned savant pieces in the 5/5 score criteria - I don't mean full Savant is best, but rather that mastery is strong enough on that spec that you're fine with a few pieces of your gear having no other secondary.

Maybe another way to frame the 5/5 vs. 4/5 score:

5/5 = mastery is the "main" stat you're going for in feverflare/harmonious/peerless
4/5 = mastery is the secondary stat you're going for in FF/Harm/Peer

A 5/5 score isn't meant to be savant = bis.



This has been discussed in great detail before. Mastery has high damage scaling per mastery point for DKs. I moved it from a 5/5 (1st stat prio) to a 4/5 (2nd stat prio) after seeing the numbers last time we had this discussion.

I would have this same discussion over Feral Mastery, which itself is even a 5/5 score in this thread. With Vers will you be a more well rounded Feral druid? Sure.

But everything that your spec does outside of the specific playstyle afforded by mastery is absolutely not competitive. The thing that both Feral and UH dk can do with mastery is a unique upside - that is, very high pressure in a very small window.

It comes down to a difference in gearing philosophy - and this is ultimately an opinion post.
[Philosophy 1] = I want to make my character as strong as possible in as many situations as possible. I play that character because I like it, even if what it does is done better by other characters.
[Philosophy 2] = I want to maximize strengths unique to my character. I want to play that character in any way that it will outshine other characters.

I am more in Philosophy #2 - I don't like the venn diagram circle of what my character does to be entirely within the circle of another spec or class. And before you say "hunters" --> I don't really include hunters in this analysis. They're an endgame class at level 20. Of course they outperform everything. I view Philosophy #1 as sort of chasing the bar set by hunters, which we will never reach.

I guess I necro that thread again where the in BG numbers (the only numbers that matter) showed that Mastery was directly on par with Verse and also showed that you did less overall damage do to Mastery not affecting all of relevant UH damage. I'm still convinced that a lot of this bad data came out of solo shuffles brief stint of popularity, where people got to run around with tier 3 as if it was tier 1 and make comments about it.

"I hid behind a pillar and summoned ghouls!"... I bet it was cool.

 

[Chops]

BG numbers (the only numbers that matter) ...

"I hid behind a pillar and summoned ghouls!"... I bet it was cool.

herein lies the problem

 

[toskosa]

After extensive testing can confirm that destro locks mastery scale the best out of all secondaries and crit is kinda bad. Imo mastery verse is the best stat combo for destruction and it has the added benefit that it's usable for affliction as well without having to get a second gear set.

Wouldn't haste mastery be better? Faster incins equal more soylshards which in turn means more bolts?

 

[Nutsmite]

Wouldn't haste mastery be better? Faster incins equal more soylshards which in turn means more bolts?

Yeah also casting chaos bolts in less than a 5 minutes feels nice

 

[Goesid]

Harm stacking lock is very 2021.

 

[kewnoober]

After extensive testing can confirm that destro locks mastery scale the best out of all secondaries and crit is kinda bad. Imo mastery verse is the best stat combo for destruction and it has the added benefit that it's usable for affliction as well without having to get a second gear set.

Vers/mastery destruction? You're gonna have a 3 day cast time on CB and Soul Fire if you prefer that talent.
A certain amount of vers/mastery that makes you more tanky than straight 30% vers? Absolutely, but then you also dump a good amount of points in haste afterwards

Vers/mastery affliction? Have pondered on it, but not done the math as I have been busy with other stuff. Maybe one day I look at it

 

[Batchee]

The fire mage mastery breakdown fails to mention the firestarter/controlled burn burst opener playstyle. which is the only playstyle that makes fire mage useful

 

[Chops]

Vers/mastery affliction? Have pondered on it, but not done the math as I have been busy with other stuff. Maybe one day I look at it

Big fan of a more "feverflare" build on aff lock. gotta keep those fears nice and quick.

 

[Bop]

The fire mage mastery breakdown fails to mention the firestarter/controlled burn burst opener playstyle. which is the only playstyle that makes fire mage useful

I don't always mention the best stats available for each spec. For one, that would make for some really long spoiler discussions. It would be even longer and more speculative if I tried to also mention the best playstyle for each spec.

The times when I do are usually for a specific reason related to weighting mastery a score that might be surprising / I feel a need to justify.

 

[Donor]

MONK​

BREWMASTER (2/5)
Mastery: Elusive Brawler
+1% Extra Dodge per Non-dodged Attack or Blackout Kick hit
+1% Attack Power

nice icons bro

I don't think I've seen a single twink play Brewmaster at 20.

Extra dodge seems incredibly lackluster. The attack power conversion is not enough to save this mastery by itself, but I'll give it a small bump on the off chance that there's some wonky full mastery build to counter hunters / warriors that we just haven't seen yet.

the built up dodge stax themselves r not a terrible mechanic
mastery contribution 2 it is barely noticeable tho
them shits stack up 2 an inevitable dodge regardless of mastery rating
its just
does it happen in 4-5 actions
or in 6-7

problem with bm is u dont hav dmg buttons
no keg
no RSK
u only hav BOK
so as a result i play it as a cc meme
hav 5 interrupts on the build
its a bg spec over an arena spec imo
having the belt punt & glider tinkers rounds the meme out nicely
not sure how it fares in arenas without those 2

long story short
1/5 is legit if u wanna bump it down
u r way better served stacking agi/stam gems in tbc dung gear if u want BOK 2 feel a lil less wet noodlish
or just go big chad chin +3 stam gems
gotta liv long enuff 2 burn all ur cc CDs on that 1st LM engagement

 

[Batchee]

I don't always mention the best stats available for each spec. For one, that would make for some really long spoiler discussions. It would be even longer and more speculative if I tried to also mention the best playstyle for each spec.

The times when I do are usually for a specific reason related to weighting mastery a score that might be surprising / I feel a need to justify.

I wrote my previous message with hope u can reweight mastery.
I can't say what the best playstyle is. Theres no best playstyle, only best at. But this 'Tinder' talent that makes fireball slightly stronger every 8 sec sucks.
Uncontrolled Burn doubles the ignite damage, means u get double the value from Mastery.

Yes you can pewpew with fireballs or scorch until hot streak, you get hotstreak and then it just does puny does 500 damage because you invested 180 points into crit.
Playing around firestarter and fire blast to get ur first hot streak with 0 crit stats invested and then cast 2x phoenix flames which spread that damage to nearby targets is S-Tier burst damage.