Huntard Discussion: Survival vs. Beastmastery- PUGing

Status
Not open for further replies.
You make a thoughtful and interesting point. Intimidate is the CC I use the least often, for the reason you stated earlier: its fire-and-forget nature mean that you can't count on it the instant you need it. That combined with the fact that I run with (arguably) the best pet CC of all (Lullaby) means that I should at least consider the possibility that survival has more utility in more situations. This is worth thinking about.

Edit: intended as a reply w/quote to Earl.
 
Yeah, I would have to agree with Earl, and stay with Survival.

Even though I preferred it all along.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
9 people said BM while only 3 said SV and I was about to ask why you made this thread but all you really said was discuss so never said you were thinking about switching..

Have fun with those healers though and relying on pugs to know when to use their CC.. If I see you in bgs more often I'll help you get that kill on the healers ;)
 
I have only recently started a hunter, and BM has been fun for pet management. For the most part, scatter shot + wasp sting has been sufficient to kill most healers. I imagine survival would be just as good if not better for various combat rating issues with the pet--I'll test this later.
 
Main vibe I get from this thread: "If you go survival, you are a mid farmer".
 
Deadvulcano said:
I have only recently started a hunter, and BM has been fun for pet management. For the most part, scatter shot + wasp sting has been sufficient to kill most healers. I imagine survival would be just as good if not better for various combat rating issues with the pet--I'll test this later.
Click to expand...

For a stun, run bat > wasp. Bat stun is ranged, and isn't physical, meaning it can't be dodged or parried.

Edit: And I'm sorry Lil, but if you only got 3 DPS higher in SV, you're missing a lot of potential damage. Explosive shot costs 25% more than arcane shot, and does 100% more damage. You should see a much larger spike than 3 dps if you're using a proper rotation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
allahkazam said:
every hunter that doesn't go BM for the stun is a failure.
Click to expand...

tl;dr - Survival does more damage than BM. BM has more CC than Survival. If you can't land any kills as BM, even with that extra CC, then you are better off going Survival; because now not only are you not getting any kills, you are doing even less damage. You only need as much CC that allows you to get kills. Any CC that is left over could be better spent improving your damage. If you can't get any kills, regardless of how much CC you have, then the CC is irrelevant. If the CC is irrelevant, then the only thing that matters is your damage output.


How valuable is that stun when majority of players are playing their Paladins and Warriors? The stun(if the target isnt already immune) would only be valuable in a sense for it's interrupt. And if the target, who you stunned, is somehow not DR'd already; then you are going to make ur teammate's abilities DR.

1vs1, I would argue that BM may get better results than a Surv hunter.
But if we are talking about pugs, not 1vs1 or premades, your teammates are most likely going to be filled with Paladins and Warriors; which will either make your stun less valuable or it'll make your team's stuns less valuable.

I'd probably go Survival for pugs so that I can pump out lots of dmg and I wouldn't risk DRing my abilities with my teams. Hell I'd even run Moth/Wolf. Get the Crit chance, swap moth, and focus down a healer. Survival hunters are more than capable of putting a lot of pressure on a healer, BM just gives you more opportunities to land a kill with that extra CC. But you sacrifice that 1 extra CC for more damage. The difference may not be very noticeable. And if you can't even produce enough damage from BM to kill a healer in a 1v1 situation, even with that extra cc, then you might as well go Survival since that extra CC isn't getting you that kill anyways.

For premading, it would be debatable. With Coordinated CC, you would never have to worry about your CC DRing from a paladin or Warrior; vice versa. But if you are already running a heavy CC Comp in your premade, the Survival Dmg would look pretty good.


The less CCing your team needs to do, the more time your team has to pump out dmg. If your team already has enough CC to create openings for a kill, then there's no point to go BM. Hunters already have plenty of CC, go Survival if your team is not lacking CC. Scattershot + Moth Silence + Racial CC(if any) should be more than enough to land a kill. In some cases, that extra CC from BM may create more openings; but if you can't produce the damage for a kill then the extra CC is useless and now you do even less damage by using it.
 
I must be getting in different pugs then you earl and cer I think you are letting all your constant 5 mans skew your view of pugging..

I am probably the most pugging hunter so I would know when I say that pugs don't coordinate CC. All these prots/wars that people want to talk about are pointless because half the time they will be attacking a dps enemy while a healer heals away all bg. 75% of pugs go into the bg with no teamwork planned and someone has to literally coach them step by step about where to go or what to do.


If a hunter is worrying about hoping that the pallies or wars or whoever around them knows how to CC then they aren't playing how they should imo. Hunter has always been a class that is well off alone and only thing a hunter should ever rely on is their pet. Don't change your helpfulness in bgs cause you assume that you will get a good pug that knows how to CC cause 9/10 times you will have gimped yourself.

A BM hunt has surprising CC dumps and without a hot I can 1v1 any healer under 1.7k which I don't think a SV hunt honestly could without the intim. I play around healers and I base what I play from them since they are the toughest competition and the ones that will take the most work to kill. Back in cata I used a bird because hunts were tough to kill and it was needed. Back in pre mop I used a moth to compensate for healers. A BM simply has a better chance vs healers imo then a SV does.


Earl I re downloaded recount so I could check dodge and what not and after checking the dmg meters at the end of like 5 bgs I noticed I did on avg from 75-90 dps while a few good SV hunts I saw did from 80-100 dps so there is a small increase there but not enough to take away a 3s stun imo.

Landing an intim really isn't as tough as people make it sound to be and I normally time it up perfectly with my wasp stun even though I use it with like .3s to go. You just have to predict your opponents nxt move and know the cast time of various spells. If it's a Rdruid you leave no time at all in between CC. If it's a Hpal you can leave room if you see them keeping their holy power up. If it's a Rshammy I find the fight kinda tough as either way it's a tough fight but you are better off with constant CC. As a priest you just wait for their casts after you burn their shield and it's over. As BM your max potential is 1v1 but it can also be good for group CC'ing. I would rather take 3 people who are stunned for 2s+ instead of 3 people who took 400ish dmg each.


I played SV pre 5.1, MM 5.1-5.2ish and BM since so this is mostly from a BM standpoint but imo from the damage I see from other good SV hunts I don't think it is worth any loss of CC of BM.
 
If you're still using a wasp, I can't even try to take any of what you said seriously. How many times do I have to explain to people that bat is, in every way, superior?


Now, please point out where I said that SV has a better chance to kill a healer. I simply stated that they have more damage potential. That extra damage, combined with CC from the other people on your team, (yes, there are other people) can be used to better effect, overall, than the extra CC of BM. And honestly, it's not really uncommon for a pug prot pal to use avenger's shield on a healer. If you can't try to work with the people in your pug, you're just as worthless as you assume they are. I don't care how much of a hero you want to be, there are still 9 other people on your team. If you haven't noticed, prot paladins, prot warriors and rogues don't require very much effort to be effective. If they get off a single CC on a healer, they've done enough for you to finish the job. If you can't react to your teammates, that's something you should work on.


And btw, it's not about how many games you've pugged. If quantity mattered, the 10 of you vouching for BM would have convinced the OP. Trying my hardest to not be a dick, but the urge is so strong.
 
1) wasp doesn't DR with intimidation. 2s+3s (5s) > 3s +1s (4s) Wasp doesn't get dodged or parried NEARLY as much as you make it sound like. I've seen it 2 times out of 8 bgs tonight.


2) I'm not going to lower my gameplay and attack the dps all bg just because someone around me wants to. I'd rather not be a hero every bg and it gets annoying when every single bg there's atleast one time where I have to go try and 1v3 the efc but the simple fact is that that is what happens in pugs. 1 FC, 1-2 on D, 1-2 on O, 5-6 in mid, 1 in gy. Unless you plan on just being a mid derper all bg you will have to try and go offensive. If you go offensive and you're the only one then you need all the help you can get to kill efc and alot of times pure dmg just isn't enough so the extra stuns help.


3) I'm not taking away from your opinion or skill or knowledge or w/e but I'm pretty sure if neon was going strictly based on opinions and quality that me+big+oldspike+sally+swoops+drama+ferro+kin (not even sure where she sits)+allah would all mean more quality then you+brov+chase. I mean I know you have 'peen and all but it isn't enough to have a 3:1 ratio.. Neon made this thread as a SV hunt liking SV hunt and just wanted someone to back up his opinion which is why he so quickly said ya I'll play SV even after almost everyone said BM.


4) I can be just as big of a bitch as you can be a dick but I think for the well being of this thread I will just agree to disagree like neon said earlier.. I love hunters and idc what spec you are as long as you're objective based so no need to really get into an argument (even though that was what this thread was made for). Hell if Neon stays SV then wtb MM ally hunt (yes MM is a spec also..) to make a hunt trio to kill any efcs >: )
 
I can tell you where Kin sits. Kin is open minded, and thinks that you both have decent points that should be considered. I'm not the kind of person to make up my mind permanently. As my aikido instructor would say, you can hit water with a hammer all day long and never hurt it, but once it is frozen, you can break it. Such is it with the mind and with ideas too. Flexibility keeps the trees from snapping in a gale.

I did notice that in your post, you said "1v1" a number of times... enough that it caught my attention. I wonder, could you elaborate on how those principles apply in groups, especially in cross heals? Personally I find that there's no way I can keep up with CC on two cross healers and I pretty much have to depend on the CC of another person, in which case one could make the argument that being able to burn down one healer as fast as possible might be the better option. Especially in light of the way changes to healing have turned WSG into bunker battles, I'm facing cross-heals much more often and am interested in developing the best possible response to that.
 
Lillhunter said:
1) wasp doesn't DR with intimidation. 2s+3s (5s) > 3s +1s (4s) Wasp doesn't get dodged or parried NEARLY as much as you make it sound like. I've seen it 2 times out of 8 bgs tonight.


2) I'm not going to lower my gameplay and attack the dps all bg just because someone around me wants to. I'd rather not be a hero every bg and it gets annoying when every single bg there's atleast one time where I have to go try and 1v3 the efc but the simple fact is that that is what happens in pugs. 1 FC, 1-2 on D, 1-2 on O, 5-6 in mid, 1 in gy. Unless you plan on just being a mid derper all bg you will have to try and go offensive. If you go offensive and you're the only one then you need all the help you can get to kill efc and alot of times pure dmg just isn't enough so the extra stuns help.


3) I'm not taking away from your opinion or skill or knowledge or w/e but I'm pretty sure if neon was going strictly based on opinions and quality that me+big+oldspike+sally+swoops+drama+ferro+kin (not even sure where she sits)+allah would all mean more quality then you+brov+chase. I mean I know you have 'peen and all but it isn't enough to have a 3:1 ratio.. Neon made this thread as a SV hunt liking SV hunt and just wanted someone to back up his opinion which is why he so quickly said ya I'll play SV even after almost everyone said BM.


4) I can be just as big of a bitch as you can be a dick but I think for the well being of this thread I will just agree to disagree like neon said earlier.. I love hunters and idc what spec you are as long as you're objective based so no need to really get into an argument (even though that was what this thread was made for). Hell if Neon stays SV then wtb MM ally hunt (yes MM is a spec also..) to make a hunt trio to kill any efcs >: )
Click to expand...

1: Still not better.

2: When did I say attack the DPS or derp in mid. Once again, everything I said went in one ear and out the other. You ignored what I wrote and responded to what you wanted me to say. If you scroll up, you might catch something about how you can improve your gameplay.

3: I'll stick to my guns on this one, and believe that he asked a question and accepted an answer. Sure, he may have already had preference to SV, and people love to have their opinions reassured. But look at Kincaides response. He read what I had to say, and actually considered multiple opinions, rather than arguing the same point that isn't even a direct response to what I'm trying to say.

4: kek




And Kin has it. With the way BG's usually pan out, teams end up turtling or brawling. Survival brings in more potential in long, large scale fights. BM has a combo that might kill a bad healer, 1v1, but won't counter cross healing, or HoTs. SV does more burst, more damage over time, at the cost of one wimpy stun that would most likely be DR'd by two other popular DPS classes that have better stuns anyways.
 
Earlwing said:
2: When did I say attack the DPS or derp in mid. Once again, everything I said went in one ear and out the other. You ignored what I wrote and responded to what you wanted me to say. If you scroll up, you might catch something about how you can improve your gameplay.
Click to expand...
Earlwing said:
If you can't try to work with the people in your pug, you're just as worthless as you assume they are. I don't care how much of a hero you want to be, there are still 9 other people on your team. If they get off a single CC on a healer, they've done enough for you to finish the job. If you can't react to your teammates, that's something you should work on.
Click to expand...
I read everything you wrote and I provided counter points to what you wrote which should have showed that I read it. Idk how improving my gameplay would be sticking around the other 9 people on my team in mid? You said to work with the other people and I replied with the other people normally attack dps and are mid farming so I don't want to help them when I'm trying to actually win the game.



Also Kin I said 1v1 alot because like it or not that is what I seem to do in 4/5 bgs... I don't premade with 4 people behind me and I rarely stick with the group unless they are on D cause 7/10 times the group is all in mid. I admit there are those bgs where there's like 5 people on O but that happens less times then more. To answer your question though.



Big group fight trying to get efc or escort fc (not mid farming):

Set the primary healer in the to your focus and keep your eye on the offhealer or the #2 healer. When the hots end or there's a break or w/e chance you see fitting you cast KC (25 yd gap closer which normally in big fights everyone is within 25 yds) then intim on your focus and you scatter shot either your mouseover or your target. If you have a stunning pet and you used a mouseover scatter you can follow it up with a KC then stun on your target and all that just happened within like 4s and I promise you in a group setting that atleast 2 hordes died from the healer CC's.


1v2 you're only person on offense with 2 healers turtling:

This is tough but for the most part can be done easily if the healers are avg with like 1.3k-1.6k depending on the combo. Set your efc as focus and make the other your target. Go in and immediately put a serpent sting on your target (I find it that efc is normally the person who runs so if you open on the other the efc may run anyways) and depending on if they dps or just spam heals you can use your pet stun first on your target (want to kill target before efc normally since target will be healing efc and efc will be healing efc) then use intim on your focus to have both of them being CC'd at the same time then once they are both out you save your scatter for a focus scatter or a reg one depending on what happens and by this time your 600 serpent sting has ticked off plus aorund 300 pet dmg plus ur 200 dmg so one of them are around 400 hp left which you can try to burst down the rest.

Those are just 2 scenarios of what I meant by group CC and if the 2nd choice is some 2k Rdruid with a 1.8k Dpriest then obviously that would be impossible but it would be impossible for a SV also.

Edit: gotta go take a shower and go to gmas so I will continue this nice friendly spec discussion later tonight if need be
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Good job not quoting the multiple posts where I already said what I'm about to say again.

People aren't as retarded as you're making them out to be. You clearly haven't played a healer in this bracket, or you would have noticed that people DO target them. People DO go after FC's. Yea, you have mid farmers in every game, but there are almost always people going after flags as well. It's obvious that you only see it one way; That you alone are to only person who has ever gone after EFC, or has ever focused a healer, and if you can't do it, nobody can. I've played with you. You tunnel vision and kamikaze. Seems to me that you're so used to pugging, that when you do play with other people, you don't really play 'With' them. Premade experience would help you to understand how to work with your teammates. That includes randoms. Oh, btw, I pug more than I premade, so you can stop flaunting that card.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top