How are we feeling about the 20s bracket in SL so far?

[Henry]

I know it’s still early, but how is everyone enjoying the bracket so far?

What do you like better? What do you consider to be an improvement from BFA?

What do you think is worse? What do you miss from BFA?
[doublepost=1609773892,1609773134][/doublepost]I'll go first:

What I like better:
- Class/spec diversity: Obviously we got DKs and DHs, but I'm also just generally seeing more of a variety of specs performing well.
- Meta seems more balanced: Reign of the Huntards is still a thing, but the meta doesn't feel as dominated by a few select specs like it did with BFA Arcane Mages, MM Hunters, Disc Priests, Resto Druids and RShams.
- Larger BG map rotation: It's been refreshing to get a wider variety of maps instead of the same 3 we had in BFA.
- Farming is more "fun" (XD farming fun omegalul) and group-oriented: Getting an i28 farm group going feels more social and fun than having to re-roll a toon hundreds of times for BiS Epic quest upgrades back in BFA.
- Gearing is much more flexible and dynamic: There doesn't seem to be one right way to gear up any particular spec...lots more room for personal preference, experimenting with different builds, theorycrafting, etc. Plus we have way more gear choices to pick from with all the xpac content.
- Way more PvE content

What I miss:
- BG Reward Boxes having meaningful gear rewards: It made actually BGing feel rewarding because the drops were in many cases BiS with the right stats and a blue upgrade
- Healer Specs having OP Damage Output: This is gonna be a controversial take, but from someone who played the undeniably-OP RSham in BFA I miss when Healer Specs had crazy damage tuning...It made gearing up and queuing as a healer more enticing and meant we had a lot more healers in BGs.
- Rogues seemed to be much more powerful in BFA (specifically Outlaw). I have yet to encounter a Rogue this xpac that does anything meaningful in a BG...I'm guessing they're really suffering from all the added survivability and armor with Talasites and a shift to a more Melee-heavy meta...I miss the "threat factor" that Outlaw Rogues had before; feels like we're missing that role/playstyle now.

 

[Chops]

Its as good as 20s have ever been. I certainly hope the class and spec diversity maintains, but Im worried that people will eventually gravitate to the "best" specs over time. Which will be a shame.

Personally, Im stoked that warriors are in such a great place. Weapon swapping to sword/board feels *almost* like the old stance dancing. We actually have pummel! and spamstring! The addition of Colossus Smash makes arms feel good and not just a slower fury.

I just wish that "que specific" worked so I could never leave Twin Peaks

 

[Henry]

Its as good as 20s have ever been. I certainly hope the class and spec diversity maintains, but Im worried that people will eventually gravitate to the "best" specs over time. Which will be a shame.

Personally, Im stoked that warriors are in such a great place. Weapon swapping to sword/board feels *almost* like the old stance dancing. We actually have pummel! and spamstring! The addition of Colossus Smash makes arms feel good and not just a slower fury.

I just wish that "que specific" worked so I could never leave Twin Peaks

Agreed. I love that Arms is a legit thing now rather than a meme spec, and that notion of more complex rotations/strategies/tricks seems to translate to a lot of other specs as well. The kits, in general, feel much more complete at 20 this Xpac.

And I feel you man, I've only had 1 game of Twin Peaks so far but it's definitely one of my favorites.

 

[Neon]

Warlocks are fotm but don’t tell anyone...

 

[Vyvenem]

I can honestly say that I've had more fun in the last 2 months of playing WoW 20s than I have as a subbed player in the few expansions I actually played. The sheer variety of content is unbelievable and always has me wondering what I can/should do next, both in PvE and PvP. The best part of it all is I don't feel constrained by time like I do when I sub (I hate wasting money which is how I felt each waking minute I wasn't playing).

I just hope they decide to keep things the way they are for the future.

 

[Henry]

I can honestly say that I've had more fun in the last 2 months of playing WoW 20s than I have as a subbed player in the few expansions I actually played. The sheer variety of content is unbelievable and always has me wondering what I can/should do next, both in PvE and PvP. The best part of it all is I don't feel constrained by time like I do when I sub (I hate wasting money which is how I felt each waking minute I wasn't playing).

I just hope they decide to keep things the way they are for the future.

Agreed. You're an F2P as well, right? I've only ever had the patience to make Vets, but the F2P scene seems to have a shit ton more stuff to do now....which is a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it lol (cough engineering grind cough).

 

[Asylum]

(cough engineering grind cough).

legion enchanting called...

 

[Kakakaka]

tldr SL 20s aren't very competitive for a variety of factors atm that aren't even listed below (still fun)

Despite gaining what could be considered a more 'competitive' kit for every class, the BG quality has dropped drastically overall as far as twink vs twink due to BG quantity and effort it takes to gear increasing. This isn't to say the bracket isn't still just as fun, since level 60s scaling and levelers are 'threats' if geared & higher level- but more or less just means that it is insanely more difficult to get into a close BG where both sides are actually playing well than it was in BFA. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in my opinion it does drop what 'competitiveness' BFA 20s had to practically nothing. (this is ignoring the PVE aspect entirely)

 

[Asylum]

the bracket is still just as fun, since level 60s scaling and levelers are 'threats' if geared & higher level

some of these covenant p-sync options seem like a lot of fun!

 

[Henry]

tldr SL 20s aren't very competitive for a variety of factors atm that aren't even listed below (still fun)

Despite gaining what could be considered a more 'competitive' kit for every class, the BG quality has dropped drastically overall as far as twink vs twink due to BG quantity and effort it takes to gear increasing. This isn't to say the bracket isn't still just as fun, since level 60s scaling and levelers are 'threats' if geared & higher level- but more or less just means that it is insanely more difficult to get into a close BG where both sides are actually playing well than it was in BFA. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in my opinion it does drop what 'competitiveness' BFA 20s had to practically nothing. (this is ignoring the PVE aspect entirely)

Really? I sort of disagree with you.

I’ve had a number of close matches that actually feel more competitive, but that’s purely subjective. Twink vs. Levelers games will still be a stomp, obviously, but I’ve had plenty of BGs with Twinks on both sides that got kinda sweaty.

In terms of gearing, I’d actually argue it’s easier to get a basic gear setup now than it was in BFA. You can get a full i28 set in an hour from the AH, or a weekend if you farm it yourself. The TBC dungeon grinds can get lengthy with RNG, for sure, but still better than in BFA where you had to re-roll for quest upgrades and/or get lucky with BG crate rewards.

Min-maxing? Yeah it’s probably a lot harder this xpac with socket and tertiary rolls, but you can get a basic, cookie cutter gear setup very very quickly imo.

 

[Vyvenem]

Agreed. You're an F2P as well, right? I've only ever had the patience to make Vets, but the F2P scene seems to have a shit ton more stuff to do now....which is a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it lol (cough engineering grind cough).

I sure am f2p. I made a brand new email and account on prepatch day starting completely fresh, with plans to only ever have ONE character and farm as many achievements as possible. The grinds just add more content to the game, and the only hard thing about engineering really was getting into the zones and collecting the flights. Once I had those, I just followed my spawn path once a day until I had enough stuff.

You will never have a shortage of things to do, and you won't have to spend a dime to keep playing

 

[Henry]

I sure am f2p. I made a brand new email and account on prepatch day starting completely fresh, with plans to only ever have ONE character and farm as many achievements as possible. The grinds just add more content to the game, and the only hard thing about engineering really was getting into the zones and collecting the flights. Once I had those, I just followed my spawn path once a day until I had enough stuff.

You will never have a shortage of things to do, and you won't have to spend a dime to keep playing

Impressive progress with your gear, the gems, the enchants and the Dragonling for a pure F2P!

 

[zazzyfraz]

I played 20 or so games, didn’t see any twinks I recognized, died every time I got stunned. Had to pop a saltwater and 3x starsurge to get the one twink 4200hp warrior down to 25% hp then he kicked my next spell and I died to an execute that was 50% overkill. The leveler hunters with no enchants were doing 50% more damage than me

overall from my balance druid POV it’s very shit compared to level 50 gameplay. Everyone has way too much health, everyone has a kick and a stun, and only one of my buttons actually does dmg, and i need to cast 4 times to be able to able to do dmg to a twink with 3 surges. I get their attention and shut down in a lot of situations by that time. and I have to min max gear like I’m trying to push rank 1 20s to feel viable against HP stackers

 

[Henry]

I played 20 or so games, didn’t see any twinks I recognized, died every time I got stunned. Had to pop a saltwater and 3x starsurge to get the one twink 4200hp warrior down to 25% hp then he kicked my next spell and I died to an execute that was 50% overkill. The leveler hunters with no enchants were doing 50% more damage than me

overall from my balance druid POV it’s very shit compared to level 50 gameplay. Everyone has way too much health, everyone has a kick and a stun, and only one of my buttons actually does dmg, and i need to cast 4 times to be able to able to do dmg to a twink with 3 surges. I get their attention and shut down in a lot of situations by that time. and I have to min max gear like I’m trying to push rank 1 20s to feel viable against HP stackers

Git gud LOL




...but, granted, that’s a viable perspective. The Talasite stacking may be a bit overkill for the health of the bracket, it must suck facing a 5k HP Melee as a caster.

 

[zazzyfraz]

Git gud LOL




...but, granted, that’s a viable perspective. The Talasite stacking may be a bit overkill for the health of the bracket, it must suck facing a 5k HP Melee as a caster.

Thank you for letting me know my perspective is viable. Your approval as a level 20 only player means the world to me

 

[Chops]

tldr SL 20s aren't very competitive for a variety of factors atm that aren't even listed below (still fun)

Despite gaining what could be considered a more 'competitive' kit for every class, the BG quality has dropped drastically overall as far as twink vs twink due to BG quantity and effort it takes to gear increasing. This isn't to say the bracket isn't still just as fun, since level 60s scaling and levelers are 'threats' if geared & higher level- but more or less just means that it is insanely more difficult to get into a close BG where both sides are actually playing well than it was in BFA. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in my opinion it does drop what 'competitiveness' BFA 20s had to practically nothing. (this is ignoring the PVE aspect entirely)

Agreed. I guess you could say the overall "density" of twinks is less.

but that also gives us an opportunity to appeal to a wider population. The 20-29 bracket currently includes what used to be almost 4 full brackets worth of people. So if the old theory that "twinking gets recruits by owning levelers" holds up, we should hopefully see a growing population of twinks.

Had to pop a saltwater and 3x starsurge to get the one twink 4200hp warrior down to 25% hp

warrior only had 4200 health? fuckin amateur.

 

[Kakakaka]

@zazzyfraz
As someone who has played boomy quite a lot, this is definitely not an issue I see and there are various ways around this problem.
kekw

@Henry
Gearing wise, you could make a very geared character within 4 hours (from personal experience) and I've heard of 2 hours in BFA with multiple sets and at a relatively cheap cost/very easy to obtain. Difference in quality of gear matters a lot (SL 1 talasite and 4 off-stats vs BFA 4 off-stats is a valid example) for this particular subject.

i28s are both, as you mentioned, a weekend farm or you buy it off of the AH. This could be the equivalent of farming ten+ gloves of the fang from BFA, and I don't like that idea. It's also not even close to bis if you go full i28s and is absurdely expensive or a huge grind for sockets. Just not debatable to say that gearing is easier than it was in BFA, and it is definitely much more expensive.

As far as rng for BFA items, epics for one weren't really that broken to begin with and were marginally bis. Additionally, to play devil's advocate, they also made the piece at least feel meaningful (I actually liked the system). As far as BG crate pieces go, I think there's a lot to be said, but the fact that the original post says you miss BG crates says enough.

 

[Henry]

@zazzyfraz
As someone who has played boomy quite a lot, this is definitely not an issue I see and there are various ways around this problem.
kekw

@Henry
Gearing wise, you could make a very geared character within 4 hours (from personal experience) and I've heard of 2 hours in BFA with multiple sets and at a relatively cheap cost/very easy to obtain. Difference in quality of gear matters a lot (SL 1 talasite and 4 off-stats vs BFA 4 off-stats is a valid example) for this particular subject.

i28s are both, as you mentioned, a weekend farm or you buy it off of the AH. This could be the equivalent of farming ten+ gloves of the fang from BFA, and I don't like that idea. It's also not even close to bis if you go full i28s and is absurdely expensive or a huge grind for sockets. Just not debatable to say that gearing is easier than it was in BFA, and it is definitely much more expensive.

As far as rng for BFA items, epics for one weren't really that broken to begin with and were marginally bis. Additionally, to play devil's advocate, they also made the piece at least feel meaningful (I actually liked the system). As far as BG crate pieces go, I think there's a lot to be said, but the fact that the original post says you miss BG crates says enough.

100%. The power discrepancy between under-geared and BiS is massive in SL, and a huge grind.

It’s also possible to roll a fresh 20 in a full i28 set you bought off the AH and immediately jump into BGs and do moderately well (since most teams are predominantly levelers, anyway). But you’re right, it really didn’t take that long in BFA anyway, so it’s a minimal difference in the investment for a viable “starting point”, but a huge difference in the investment for full BiS.

 

[JadeFire]

Steady Talasite paired with Crusader is the only real "retard factor" left. There is a HUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEE difference in just blowing a warriors face off that has +2+2 gems than there is trying to kill one that has all Talasites because they only have to care about Crusader procs to fix their otherwise unplayable build. It just feels "skill-less" and when things feel "skill-less" 1) they usually are 2) its not fun except for the person being able to abuse it. I'm not blaming anybody here, but don't take steriods then claim to be a natty.

Other than that, its not bad. I like how heals can go OOM. I do like how heals are not DPS for the most part.

With fewer twink versus twink games tho as mentioned above... not sure if its going to have 2 years worth of entertainment value.

*however* I will add that because there are fewer Twink versus Twink games... it does add to the fun of a lot of the lesser specs. Enhancement/Elemental are really fun, when there are 3-4 twinks total in a game... if there are more, you just can't compete/have to make a shitty build with Talasites and then rely on procs that are 25% as good as Crusader.

 

[Henry]

Steady Talasite paired with Crusader is the only real "retard factor" left. There is a HUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEE difference in just blowing a warriors face off that has +2+2 gems than there is trying to kill one that has all Talasites because they only have to care about Crusader procs to fix their otherwise unplayable build. It just feels "skill-less" and when things feel "skill-less" 1) they usually are 2) its not fun except for the person being able to abuse it. I'm not blaming anybody here, but don't take steriods then claim to be a natty.

Other than that, its not bad. I like how heals can go OOM. I do like how heals are not DPS for the most part.

With fewer twink versus twink games tho as mentioned above... not sure if its going to have 2 years worth of entertainment value.

*however* I will add that because there are fewer Twink versus Twink games... it does add to the fun of a lot of the lesser specs. Enhancement/Elemental are really fun, when there are 3-4 twinks total in a game... if there are more, you just can't compete/have to make a shitty build with Talasites and then rely on procs that are 25% as good as Crusader.

Can you imagine how useless Warriors/Pallies/DKs would be without Crusader though?