Here's an idea.

[24nubsdie]

Any discussion about the 20-24 bracket should take place in the forum dedicated to it. I think it is unreasonable to ask for some heavily moderated thread in the tavern that probably won't accomplish much anyway.



I'm already noticing a shift in moderation (hopefully fueled by the increased civility between the two communities) that they are at least turning a blind eye to most 20 v 24 discussion. I get the impression that CIHC is just a little eager in executing his newly bestowed moderator privilages.

except for the fact that threads are being derailed into f2p 20s vs 24s and discussed in...a uncivil manner. If we can just have on thread in the tavern for the f2p 20s vs 24 debate things would be so much easier for both the f2p 20s, 24s and the mods.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]Rivfader - I expected it to be a decent thread since most of the hate and trolling was over with early. I was shocked by that. I had really hoped that smoke was beginning to clear and some headway made in the 20/24 issue.[/font]



Twinking is an arms race. It's to be the best, no matter the cost. Now it could be done with civility (but you and I both know that emotions are going to flare and it's going to get ugly) but how long can it last? How long will it take for people (both f2p's and 24's) to see that it's not going to change? (Barring something drastic from Blizzard.)



If anything, I would be happy if we could communicate without the same old crap stated by both sides. This is a game, it's supposed to be played to have fun, but nothing is ever perfect. I don't understand why some feel so victimized when they knew that 24's would show up, and keep complaining about it.



I'm not going to say "Can't we all just get along?" But can we at least discuss things without all the hate, the tired old sayings and trolling?

its a fact the f2p 20s and 24s are going to be in the same bracket and i am willing to put all the "24s are all evil" behind me in favor of a more civilized discussion to see reason on both sides.

 

[Rivfader]

[font=times new roman,times,serif].



Twinking is an arms race. It's to be the best, no matter the cost. Now it could be done with civility (but you and I both know that emotions are going to flare and it's going to get ugly) but how long can it last? How long will it take for people (both f2p's and 24's) to see that it's not going to change? (Barring something drastic from Blizzard.)



?[/font]

Twinking doesn't have to be an arms race, that's the point I'm trying to get across. You and all other 24s make it one and in doing so you alienate the very people who are responsible for your queues popping. The 20-24 bracket is facing the same challenges as the 60-64 bracket did. If you don't want it to die the same death then don't repeat their mistakes. It comes down to what is more important to you, having a fun healthy bracket, or steamrolling the undergeared for as long as you can.



The ball is in your court.

 

[Lithogen]

Any discussion about the 20-24 bracket should take place in the forum dedicated to it. I think it is unreasonable to ask for some heavily moderated thread in the tavern that probably won't accomplish much anyway.



I'm already noticing a shift in moderation (hopefully fueled by the increased civility between the two communities) that they are at least turning a blind eye to most 20 v 24 discussion. I get the impression that CIHC is just a little eager in executing his newly bestowed moderator privilages.



Edit: Lithogen, I just noticed that you tagge this post with "fair play". I find it ironic that a 24 is asking for fair play. Tell me, do you think that it is fair play to twink out a toon with a massive gear and level advantage over the vast majority of opponents they are likely to face?

[font=times new roman,times,serif]It was supposed to be ironic, hehe

. But it was also supposed to show that a good attempt was made to communicate and some found it necessary to kick it in the gutter while hiding behind the f2p claims of 20 vs 24 not being fair. But the thing is Riv (if I can call you that.) Life isn't fair, and certainly not everything in WoW is fair. You just gotta roll with it, but there is a line that can't be crossed, some have theirs set a bit farther than others.[/font]

 

[Inkobah]

its a fact the f2p 20s and 24s are going to be in the same bracket and i am willing to put all the "24s are all evil" behind me in favor of a more civilized discussion to see reason on both sides.

I've said in multiple threads about 20s vs. 24s that everyone is going to be better off when all posters (despite their subjective viewpoint) stop trying to change players/users with the other viewpoint's minds and just roll with the cards that Blizz has dealt us. You can have civil communication in the 20-24 section...that's what we designed it for. Again I say move on w/ your civil discussions and report the few bad apples.



-Ink

 

[Lithogen]

Twinking doesn't have to be an arms race, that's the point I'm trying to get across.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]But twinking is an arms race. It wouldn't be twinking if it wasn't. There would be no need to get enchants. There would be no need to run dungeons and chest farm for that perfect BoE if it wasn't about wanting to be the best. Whether or not it's done by f2p's, 24's or even 85's in end game PvP, you strive to be the best so that you win.[/font]



[font=times new roman,times,serif]I don't think that the ball is in my court. I and some of the other 24 twinks have stated why they have made a 24 when no one has to explain any reasoning. (I hope that doesn't come off as hostile, it's really not.)



Edit - To stop the steamrolling, use teamwork, use the terrain to your advantage. If you see a 24 coming at you and he's bubbled with a healer in tow, don't crash against him and let him break your group, go around and kill his healer, or CC him and gang up on another. I get rolled by certain classes like I'm a fat little piggy, so I stay away them and I don't get steam rolled. On that topic about the ball being in someone's court, it's in yours now. 24's are here, and like I said, barring something done by Blizzard you are the ones to deal with them.



Come up with strats, stack a few classes if you have to (since premades are popular) think about the weaknesses of the class you're up against and figure out how to exploit them with what you have.[/font]

 

[Rivfader]

I don't understand why some feel so victimized when they knew that 24's would show up, and keep complaining about it.

I think I can explain why pretty well.



In the first weeks of f2p we built a community on AP that was hnlike anything else in retail WoW before. EU and US players could play together in a bracket that lacked most of the burst problems of pre-70 brackets. We put a lot of time into building characters in hopes of premading H v. A. People helped out by rolling P2P accounts under F2P restirctions so we could form groups. Yaseuh wrote an addon to allow us to communicate. After all this effort we took a previously dead bracket and made it active. After all that work was put in 24s started showing up and kicking over our sandcastle, bringing with them all the problems of the brackets we had left behind.



I would never pay for this bracket as it sits today, if my account was back up you'd see me in 19s, 29s, and 39s because there I have some expectation of competition. If you enjoy being able to own BGs without putting in effort and doing so at the expense of others then by all means say so. To most of us actions speak louder than words.



I think most 24s fall into 3 catagories:



-Bads who need the advantage

-normal players who have no interest ing the bracket and merely enjoy owning it up for the lulz

-Players who are generally new to twinking and are genuinely ignorant of what effect they're having.

 

[24nubsdie]

I think I can explain why pretty well.



In the first weeks of f2p we built a community on AP that was hnlike anything else in retail WoW before. EU and US players could play together in a bracket that lacked most of the burst problems of pre-70 brackets. We put a lot of time into building characters in hopes of premading H v. A. People helped out by rolling P2P accounts under F2P restirctions so we could form groups. Yaseuh wrote an addon to allow us to communicate. After all this effort we took a previously dead bracket and made it active. After all that work was put in 24s started showing up and kicking over our sandcastle, bringing with them all the problems of the brackets we had left behind.



I would never pay for this bracket as it sits today, if my account was back up you'd see me in 19s, 29s, and 39s because there I have some expectation of competition. If you enjoy being able to own BGs without putting in effort and doing so at the expense of others then by all means say so. To most of us actions speak louder than words.



I think most 24s fall into 3 catagories:



-Bads who need the advantage

-normal players who have no interest ing the bracket and merely enjoy owning it up for the lulz

-Players who are generally new to twinking and are genuinely ignorant of what effect they're having.

Actually after grouping with a 24 as a f2p 20 today to do some bgs with there are more than just 3 catergories. There are some who are frustrated of hunters. There are some who are frustrated with AP premades. There are some who want to be the best in the brackets. You cannot assume that all 24s fall into these 3 catergories this will just lead to 24s having their own bias views about f2p 20s.

 

[Lithogen]

[font=times new roman,times,serif]Add a fourth category. >_>[/font]



[font=times new roman,times,serif]- People who love the bracket, the fast que times and take advantage of what they have. (Since that's what twinking is.)[/font]



[font=times new roman,times,serif]I understand that the bracket would be dead or next to dead without f2p. I really do. But do you honestly believe that not one single soul behind the keyboard ever posed the question: "Hey, what do we do when 24's show up? They can be in the bracket." Was this not a huge concern? Some of the f2p's claim to be veterans of WoW and that they just don't have the ability to pay for the game, or refuse to. Why didn't these veterans realize that eventually there would be griefing @#$% show up and do this?



Edit - And if they did know, how come this is such a huge debacle?[/font]

 

[Rivfader]

A few points



-The 64s killed the 60-64 bracket, 24s will do the same.



-You don't need to be a 24 to be competetive in this bracket.



Again, by all means max your character, just do it in the f2p restrictions. This accomplishes 2 things, it ensures that F2Ps (the lifeblood of the bracket) will continue playing and the bracket will stay active. It also changes the bracket from the burstfest of 19s to something resembling balance where player skill dictates the outcome of games, not who pressed their damage button first.



I do group queue, but there is only so much you can outplay. EPIC has two rogues who are absolutely terrible (I stopped fake casting them when I realized they never kick) but they can still global me with ambush>evisc. Bull has almost 3k HP and because of his level advantage is nearly unhittable to most F2Ps. Couple that with the fact that most of the comps your guild runs are some variation of hunter/rogue/priest/paladin and you begin to see why it is unreasonable to tell f2p players to merely "play better".

 

[24nubsdie]

A few points



-The 64s killed the 60-64 bracket, 24s will do the same.



-You don't need to be a 24 to be competetive in this bracket.



Again, by all means max your character, just do it in the f2p restrictions. This accomplishes 2 things, it ensures that F2Ps (the lifeblood of the bracket) will continue playing and the bracket will stay active. It also changes the bracket from the burstfest of 19s to something resembling balance where player skill dictates the outcome of games, not who pressed their damage button first.



I do group queue, but there is only so much you can outplay. EPIC has two rogues who are absolutely terrible (I stopped fake casting them when I realized they never kick) but they can still global me with ambush>evisc. Bull has almost 3k HP and because of his level advantage is nearly unhittable to most F2Ps. Couple that with the fact that most of the comps your guild runs are some variation of hunter/rogue/priest/paladin and you begin to see why it is unreasonable to tell f2p players to merely "play better".

most 60s i think have migrated to other brackets. But 24s certainly will not kill the f2p 20 bracket mainly because f2p 20s are free. When against 24s the best tactic is to outsmart and outplay them such "feeding" them someone to keep them distracted from your FC. Though half of the 24s i have come acrossed are soloable by my hunter. Also best not to call those two rogues terrible because antagonism will always be mutual.

 

[Rivfader]

[font=times new roman,times,serif]I understand that the bracket would be dead or next to dead without f2p. I really do. But do you honestly believe that not one single soul behind the keyboard ever posed the question: "Hey, what do we do when 24's show up? They can be in the bracket." Was this not a huge concern? Some of the f2p's claim to be veterans of WoW and that they just don't have the ability to pay for the game, or refuse to. Why didn't these veterans realize that eventually there would be griefing @#$% show up and do this?



Edit - And if they did know, how come this is such a huge debacle?[/font]

We actually did forsee the issue, that's why most of the veteran players are arena-only now that they have their BoAs. Once I get around to finishing mine I promise you will never hear from me again.



I'm not going to add a fourth catagory because if you love playing a 24 in this bracket you love steamrolling undergeared competition :/ that falls under number two, or number one if you happen to be bad.

 

[24nubsdie]

We actually did forsee the issue, that's why most of the veteran players are arena-only now that they have their BoAs. Once I get around to finishing mine I promise you will never hear from me again.



I'm not going to add a fourth catagory because if you love playing a 24 in this bracket you love steamrolling undergeared competition :/ that falls under number two, or number one if you happen to be bad.

we have to be reasonable to 24s sure you can think they are all bad but its best to keep those opinions un-typed as they will only do harm to f2p 20-24 relations.

 

[Lithogen]

-The 64s killed the 60-64 bracket.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]I think it's high time for this to said. If it hurts your feelings or anyone elses, I'm genuinely sorry. I really do hate to see people lose something they love. - Maybe WoW isn't the game for everyone. The f2p is an advertising tool and I admit, you guys have done some very creative things with it and with what you have. For that, I give you thundering applause. Ingenuity, adapting and overcoming, those are some hard marks to earn. You guys have earned them. I really do congratulate you.



But maybe WoW isn't the game for some. Maybe what you have isn't enough and trying to get others to play your way (not you specifically) is insulting or seen as crying or whining? Maybe it isn't in the cards.[/font]

most of the comps your guild runs are some variation of hunter/rogue/priest/paladin

[font=times new roman,times,serif]We don't run comps, we just invite whoever is online at the time [/font]

 

[24nubsdie]

ps: i have sent a pm to kore to inquire about the tavern thread will let you guys know if he allows it or not. Until then lets save our debate for the thread so we can have a proper one

 

[Rivfader]

most 60s i think have migrated to other brackets. But 24s certainly will not kill the f2p 20 bracket mainly because f2p 20s are free. When against 24s the best tactic is to outsmart and outplay them such "feeding" them someone to keep them distracted from your FC. Though half of the 24s i have come acrossed are soloable by my hunter. Also best not to call those two rogues terrible because antagonism will always be mutual.

Believe me, I know how to approach 24s. Fact is though, they don't have to be good to FC, or kill EFCs. There's only so much you can outplay, just today I kited 2 24 hunters all around alliance base for 5 mins and got globaled by a rogue right before capping.



I'm starting to get frustrated though so I'm gonna leave before I cause problems.



Parting thought:



I've played both sides, I had a BiS 24 druid for a week before I was completely disgusted with how easy and boring everything was. Maybe some of you 24s should try things our way too and see how you feel afterwards.



Edit: Lithogen, you are absolutely right and that is one of the reasons my account is cancelled. This game is full of people who will do what they do without showing any respect or consideration to others. In my daily life I can take steps to corrext that behavior when it is directed at me. Unfortunately on WoW I have to attempt to persuade or simply tolerate it.

 

[Mazurati]

I'm certainly new to this 24 vs ftp 20's, and maybe my opinion is biased, but all I see is ftp's obsessed with 24 twinks.



COTUS/24nubsdie (same person?) and Rivfader especially. Some of you are too f'n sensitive and need to loosen up. It's just a game guys.



Just stop creating posts about 20v24 and start making posts about BiS items, events, links to guilds/characters.



edit: btw, I do have a f2p account and know how it is on the flip side.

 

[Lithogen]

I'm not going to add a fourth catagory because if you love playing a 24 in this bracket you love steamrolling undergeared competition :/ that falls under number two, or number one if you happen to be bad.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]No, I like winning. (Maybe the spirit of twinking is dead.) I don't steamroll anyone, lol. I play classes that have low HP bases and don't bother with getting AGM so f2p's can kill me. Oh if I wanted to steamroll people, I could just make a toon just like Bull and never let anyone out of the GY.[/font]



[font=times new roman,times,serif]A closed mind is a very dangerous thing to have. That's rather poor form to assume something like that about me when I've gone out of my way to explain myself more than once. I could very easily get bullheaded and start tossing out blanketed assumptions like that about all the f2p's, like jobless, kids, crybabies and really throw everything sideways on this 20/24 progression. Let's be open minded here.[/font]

I'm starting to get frustrated though so I'm gonna leave before I cause problems.

[font=times new roman,times,serif]Go have a beer and we can pick up tomorrow [/font]

 

[24nubsdie]

I'm certainly new to this 24 vs ftp 20's, and maybe my opinion is biased, but all I see is ftp's obsessed with 24 twinks.



COTUS/24nubsdie (same person?) and Rivfader especially. Some of you are too f'n sensitive and need to loosen up. It's just a game guys.



Just stop creating posts about 20v24 and start making posts about BiS items, events, links to guilds/characters.

i am not cotus. Secondly some of us on both sides 24 and f2p 20s are probably more than willing to civily communicate with each other without biased opinions. Sorry if any of my posts have offended you or been biased towards 24s i am willing to put that behind us.(Cotus wouldnt be this polite lol)

 

[Mazurati]

i am not cotus. Secondly some of us on both sides 24 and f2p 20s are probably more than willing to civily communicate with each other without biased opinions. Sorry if any of my posts have offended you or been biased towards 24s i am willing to put that behind us.(Cotus wouldnt be this polite lol)

apology accepted and excuse any lashing I've said toward you



Edit: I remember COTUS from back in the day, and I don't remember every playing with him.. unless he was in Cyclone when Team Vengeance came over and maybe he's still mad at me like some others because I didn't give the FC's logon/PW out to anyone for a premade they had in which they needed the guys character. IDK what beef he has with me. ah well.

 

[Rivfader]

[font=times new roman,times,serif]No, I like winning. (Maybe the spirit of twinking is dead.) I don't steamroll anyone, lol. I play classes that have low HP bases and don't bother with getting AGM so f2p's can kill me. Oh if I wanted to steamroll people, I could just make a toon just like Bull and never let anyone out of the GY.



A closed mind is a very dangerous thing to have. That's rather poor form to assume something like that about me when I've gone out of my way to explain myself more than once. I could very easily get bullheaded and start tossing out blanketed assumptions like that about all the f2p's, like jobless, kids, crybabies and really throw everything sideways on this 20/24 progression. Let's be open minded here.[/font]

I like winning too, and I'm able to do it without a gear and level advantage. Actually, given the current state of PuGs I can do it at a gear and level disadvantage. Again, if you need the advantage to win you are probably bad, if you are unconcerned with the gear and level advantage and don't need it you probably don't care about the bracket.



Actions speak louder than words, rolling 24 premades is deafening.