Growing and protecting and growing the 20-24 bracket

[Kearbear]

The time you had is gone.

What, you mean like the bracket is going to be flooded with 24s and 20s are done? Lol I doubt it.

In my experience it goes up and down. 24s go "ooh look at this" and join up, and 1 of 2 things happen: 1) they suck, and either ragequit for getting beat by 20s or limp along, not really changing the bracket at all out of general badness 2) they're good, faceroll the bracket for a few weeks and get bored. They might keep playing once in a while but for the most part they go inactive because the teams are generally not matched enough to provide a challenge.

Now it's true that if there were more 24 on 24 battles those 24s that enjoy being challenged might stick around longer, but the sheer relative volume of 20 twinks and actual noob trials in the queues makes it highly unlikely that this will ever come about. Maybe you can drum up enough interest, but the truth is that if people are looking for more persistent balanced games they might have a better shot at just increasing the population of a more balanced bracket.

Now I won't argue about why people choose to play 24s or their character, I enjoy playing with any teammate who is positive, does not give up easily, and plays for objectives, regardless of how they choose to do it... and therefore I have enjoyed playing with Crit's premades Hope to see ya'll around.

(^ long article for Honeybadger xD)

 

[shanker]

write a book, say all you want....blizzard changes the F2P program like raise the level or eliminate it, bracket will die

 

[Zorglub]

write a book, say all you want....blizzard changes the F2P program like raise the level or eliminate it, bracket will die

nah, 24's play because they find enjoyment by existing in this bracket, not by rolling opponents.
so when blizz moves the F2P cap, they will all stay in this bracket and have the fun of their lives!
since there won't be any F2P scrubs to annoy them, right?
/sarcasm off

since I came to 20-24 subforum i won't go into details but this

You consciously made a decision to play a character who facerolls 85% of this bracket in order to avoid getting facerolled by 15% of this bracket. Put another way, you decided to make the game a little less enjoyable for the large majority of us to protect yourself against the minority of players.

This is of course entirely your prerogative, and I'm not saying it's a trivial decision. Different people will weigh the pros and cons and come up with different conclusions. I'm just saying lets not sugar coat it. I believe your point regarding the upward trend in 24's doesn't apply as you could have started with a 20 twink and then leveled him up if the balance did indeed shift dramatically.

pretty much explains it why ppl try to justify making 24's.
And why the F2P community won't ever buy it.

But yea, in the end, we ain't living in a perfect world, so why would we think about balance in 20-24 bracket otherwise?
It will never happen, like it or not...

 

[FactorsOf2]

You seem pretty committed to your opinion.

I don't think anything I've said so far is opinion. You stated:

I for one am not going to crimp myself so that 24s can roll me most of the time.

All I did was rephrase this in a way that makes it clear what choice you actually made.

I disagree with your assessment for a myriad of reasons. The biggest is the assumption that there is a bracket at any level that does not have the same or worse ratios. Pops are why those that run with me are here, like it or not, believe it or not.

I'm not sure what ratios you are referring to. The low lvl vs. high lvl issue is unique to this bracket.

Pops are why those that run with me are here, like it or not, believe it or not.

You are failing to distinguish between the reason for playing in this bracket and the reason for playing a 24 rather than a 20 in this bracket. These are 2 completely distinct decisions.

Lump them all together, spin their intentions, promote the vain idea that they all are a bunch of pansies looking to mow grass with machine guns, etc.

I agree that 24's come with a variety of intentions. I do not mean to lump you in with Duopaladin!
I believe you enjoy a good, fair game. I know you don't enjoy GY camping, farming etc. But I also believe that most 24's like you have deluded themselves to an extent. You made yourself untouchable for majority of the bracket but then lament the lack of worthy opponents. You won't acknowledge that what you've done is "chosen to faceroll 85% of the bracket in order to avoid being facerolled by 15%."

Finally, you may be right that a great influx of 24's is on the way, but you've failed to address my point that it would have been trivial to make a lvl 20 and then level up to 24 once the balance of the bracket actually shifted.

 

[Rollop]

The romantic ideal that the majority of players will by choice crimp themselves is not born out by history. The time you had is gone. Be warned, change is the one constant in life and change is upon you yet again. I don't have to like it to report it. It is just the way it is...adapt.

Lets be honest, now. Even though it wont happen, assuming every trial account player quit tomorrow. And this bracket was filled with nothing but 24's. You and the majority of facerollers would also quit and move back to the 10-14 bracket. You guys cant handle pvp on even terms, thats why you rolled this bracket. Without trials it would wither and die, and in a hurry.

 

[Honey Badger]

Example if 20 raise cap to 25. All 24 would roll 29.

Simple. Only fix is to give f2p their own bg. I don't see blizzard catering that way.

 

[Glaber]

You guys cant handle pvp on even terms, thats why you rolled this bracket. Without trials it would wither and die, and in a hurry.

^ true for alot of people, but some of us enjoy the easiness for other reasons. It reminds me of BC twinking, and that feels nice and nostalgic.

on the other hand, Qing wsg with a group of 24 guildies just SUCKS! wsg expedience ftl

 

[Crit]

What, you mean like the bracket is going to be flooded with 24s and 20s are done? Lol I doubt it.

In my experience it goes up and down. 24s go "ooh look at this" and join up, and 1 of 2 things happen: 1) they suck, and either ragequit for getting beat by 20s or limp along, not really changing the bracket at all out of general badness 2) they're good, faceroll the bracket for a few weeks and get bored. They might keep playing once in a while but for the most part they go inactive because the teams are generally not matched enough to provide a challenge.

Now it's true that if there were more 24 on 24 battles those 24s that enjoy being challenged might stick around longer, but the sheer relative volume of 20 twinks and actual noob trials in the queues makes it highly unlikely that this will ever come about. Maybe you can drum up enough interest, but the truth is that if people are looking for more persistent balanced games they might have a better shot at just increasing the population of a more balanced bracket.

Now I won't argue about why people choose to play 24s or their character, I enjoy playing with any teammate who is positive, does not give up easily, and plays for objectives, regardless of how they choose to do it... and therefore I have enjoyed playing with Crit's premades Hope to see ya'll around.

(^ long article for Honeybadger xD)

I did not say 20s are done. That would be Blizzards area of responsibility. Not denying your experience either but more and more 24s have been sticking. With all the guilds I know of that have 24s most are growing their number. As they start to be able to do a 10v10 we will be there as we are ready.

Thanks for noticing our pre-made Horde Invasion groups and our MO. Jump in our vent if you like.

 

[Crit]

write a book, say all you want....blizzard changes the F2P program like raise the level or eliminate it, bracket will die

Is that why the 19s are dying? Oh wait, they never had a F2P program...

The point is the F2P program exists and provides a solid level of activity even when new content and seasons arrive. If the bracket gets momentum, and I believe it has started, it can be self sustaining with 24s just like the 19s were for years despite circumstances that severely impacted the activity.

 

[SallyG]

Is that why the 19s are dying? Oh wait, they never had a F2P program...

The point is the F2P program exists and provides a solid level of activity even when new content and seasons arrive. If the bracket gets momentum, and I believe it has started, it can be self sustaining with 24s just like the 19s were for years despite circumstances that severely impacted the activity.

We'll have to wait and see, but my suspicions are...

People didn't roll 24's for the reason people roll 19's or 29's or 39's or... you get where I'm going with this?

So if F2Ps were to poof, I believe that the bracket would meet it's demise. Quickly.

 

[kratos]

We'll have to wait and see, but my suspicions are...

People didn't roll 24's for the reason people roll 19's or 29's or 39's or... you get where I'm going with this?

So if F2Ps were to poof, I believe that the bracket would meet it's demise. Quickly.

Plus, we need to consider that 19's had a stable bracket, long and before the F2Ps came in.
20-24 bracket only exists because of the F2P's, there is really no denying it.

 

[Crit]

I don't think anything I've said so far is opinion. You stated:

"I for one am not going to crimp myself so that 24s can roll me most of the time." ~Crit

All I did was rephrase this in a way that makes it clear what choice you actually made.

If you have to “rephrase” someone else's words to make your point it becomes yours and as such reflects your opinion.

I'm not sure what ratios you are referring to. The low lvl vs. high lvl issue is unique to this bracket.

You must be kidding me. Every bracket is a “bracket”. More importantly than the levels though are the differences between characters gear, enchants, gems, etc. Take for example a new 85 rolling in to a BG and confronts a 410 gear level 85.

You are failing to distinguish between the reason for playing in this bracket and the reason for playing a 24 rather than a 20 in this bracket. These are 2 completely distinct decisions.

Sorry you feel that way. You are incorrect in your assumption of my understanding.

I agree that 24's come with a variety of intentions. I do not mean to lump you in with Duopaladin! I believe you enjoy a good, fair game. I know you don't enjoy GY camping, farming etc. But I also believe that most 24's like you have

deluded themselves to an extent. You made yourself untouchable for majority of the bracket but then lament the lack of worthy opponents. You won't acknowledge that what you've done is "chosen to faceroll 85% of the bracket in order to avoid being facerolled by 15%."

Finally, you may be right that a great influx of 24's is on the way, but you've failed to address my point that it would have been trivial to make a lvl 20 and then level up to 24 once the balance of the bracket actually shifted.

It is important to state in precise clear words to reduce wiggle room for interpretation or spin.No lamentations <<Very Important Point or VIP>

1. I acknowledge that at any time in any bracket I play that I can faceroll 85% of that bracket
2. When the 20-24 bracket was created it was for 20-24
3. I have several 20s and a F2P
4. "Trivial" is determined by perspective
5. 24s are here to stay
6. F2P can go away and is all about Blizzard marketing their commercial game. If it fails to meet their criteria...
7. 20-24 xp off activity was essentially non existent before F2P and therefore was 100% of the bracket
8. You state that currently F2P is 85% of the bracket
9. In marketing critical mass is 5% penetration
10. 20-24 xp off bracket got to 85%/15% without me doing anything
11. Plan to use my marketing skills to increase the already accelerating 24s
12. Horde Invasion is already organizing 10v10 play
13. Horde Invasion supports and inclusive of F2P players
14. I intend on helping to establish standards and practices that keep it growing and fun

.
If you can't or refuse to see the writing on the wall that is your business. My perspective is on building not picking at others intentions or perspective of what is and is not "trivial" to them. Had I done what you propose the point at which my decision to level would have been a topic for debate and tendered as some form of detractor. The last person to level and play at 24 is not the best of us nor is the first 24 to play the bracket the worst of us. Inspect and then adapt. Some look to pwn noobs. Some seek to be considered by others in a manner of their choosing and do all sorts of things to shape others opinions of them. There are two extremes, try to keep the bubble in the middle.







Any underline, color, italics and bolding are mine.

 

[Crit]

We'll have to wait and see, but my suspicions are...

People didn't roll 24's for the reason people roll 19's or 29's or 39's or... you get where I'm going with this?

So if F2Ps were to poof, I believe that the bracket would meet it's demise. Quickly.

Assuming makes an _____ out of you and me.

If the F2P were to go poof right now you are most likely correct. If the F2P goes poof, ever. Once 24s are around 50% the bracket they should be self sustaining. IE no poof.

 

[Bounce]

How are 24s ever going to reach 50% of the bracket, with so many new players that know nothing about the game joining F2P and then queing WsG at 800 hp. There aren't enough players that will enjoy 3 shotting new players for 24s to reach 50% of the bracket. And yes, everyone who said you are an idiot for complaining about easy games when you roll 24s is correct. Roll a 20 if all of you want fair, competitive games, as you mostly face 20s. BUT, if you are so obsessed with premading at lvl 24, that is COMPLETELY ok, keep a 24. But we all know pugs are 99% of games, in every bracket, and they are what keep people playing.

 

[Stamm]

Solution to fair games while playing a 24: 2 sets of gear.

1st set: Other 24's? Use all your p2p stuff to kill them

2nd set: Just Blue gear from dungeons w/chest and shoulder looms.

True, if you need to use 1st set, you WILL destroy some 20's, but it's better than using 1st set all the time.

 

[FactorsOf2]

Critster, you're worse than Duopaladin, because at least he admits why he's here.

NOBODY is worse than duopaladin If all our 24's were like Critster the bracket would be a lot better.
Now, if all our 24's were 20's the bracket would unstoppably awesome.

 

[FactorsOf2]

Solution to fair games while playing a 24: 2 sets of gear.

1st set: Other 24's? Use all your p2p stuff to kill them

2nd set: Just Blue gear from dungeons w/chest and shoulder looms.

True, if you need to use 1st set, you WILL destroy some 20's, but it's better than using 1st set all the time.

Great suggestion! With those BG spy addons you could just figure out how many 24's the other team had right at the beginning and then decide if you need to gimp yourself. I'd say 2nd set should be gear that puts all stats slightly below the level of BiS 20 twink (slightly below to compensate for the hit issue 20's have on you).

Hell, I might do this with my twink 20 given some of the weak PuGs I've fought! Equipment manager makes this so easy. Ooooh, and that means a 2nd transmog!

Thoughts Critster? I know you're working on pure 24 10v10's but right now you must be doing almost all partial premades and PuGs. You could still premade with your guildies without being crazy OP!

 

[FactorsOf2]

My perspective is on building not picking at others intentions or perspective of what is and is not "trivial" to them.

You're right, I've taken this past the point of being constructive, but please try to understand my perspective:

Some 24's come here to faceroll and torment weaker players, I can't change them and I accept that. But there are some 24's, like yourself, who are worth trying to talk out of the 24's and into the 20's.

I believe some these 24's either a) haven't fully acknowledged to themselves how their presence is hurting the majority of the bracket, or b) haven't seen how much more enjoyable it is to be somewhat evenly matched to the majority of the bracket rather than facerolling them.

Maybe I won't convert anyone, but it's worth trying to make the bracket a little better.

 

[Honey Badger]

lol I'm not gimping myself. I grinded for my gear. I'll just cap fast , unless I've seen you farm or guildie in group im with says you farmed a guildie before. To each their own.

 

[sevenohseven]

You're right, I've taken this past the point of being constructive, but please try to understand my perspective:

Some 24's come here to faceroll and torment weaker players, I can't change them and I accept that. But there are some 24's, like yourself, who are worth trying to talk out of the 24's and into the 20's.

I believe some these 24's either a) haven't fully acknowledged to themselves how their presence is hurting the majority of the bracket, or b) haven't seen how much more enjoyable it is to be somewhat evenly matched to the majority of the bracket rather than facerolling them.

Maybe I won't convert anyone, but it's worth trying to make the bracket a little better.

24's are in your games to carry you to wins. we all know you cant face a 7 hunter team with members who have 500hp. even 1000hp isnt enough. you should be thanking us for feeding you wins instead of trying to dumb our game down to your f2p level. dont like it? stop playing or buy wow. either way i win.
you stop playing and the bracket dies? good riddance.
you buy wow and play a real twink bracket like 29? happy to have more players.