Controversial: Religion
- Thread starter Twinkytoes
- Start date
Ego
OG
Oh sht, ban hammer and post deletion are tearing it up tonight O_O
@Chris, to stay on topic
Not so much the way it's run, but election wise bothers me. If you're not a catholic or christian, you are pretty much viewed as a neanderthol with no set of moral code. We are more likely to see a black president (well duh =P), woman president, an asian face, and maybe (just maybe) a ginger president before we see an atheist/agnostic/nihilist president.
@Chris, to stay on topic
Not so much the way it's run, but election wise bothers me. If you're not a catholic or christian, you are pretty much viewed as a neanderthol with no set of moral code. We are more likely to see a black president (well duh =P), woman president, an asian face, and maybe (just maybe) a ginger president before we see an atheist/agnostic/nihilist president.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
Druiddroid said:
well considering roman catholics believe that the bible is the word of god, yes the generally take the bible word for word. also they have to listen to the pope and what he says (ex. no abortion, no condoms or contraception, no evolution). so like i said, clearly you aren't roman catholic....or you aren't a real roman catholic.
by the by....i dont even remember what i posted that was deleted. but why are mods editing this topic. let the people speak imo.
scytale
OG
@ the original question:
There's really no good argument against it. Religion absolutely should be taught in schools. It should be taught alongside world history. Like it or not, but religion has been the driving force for most of the world-wide developments since.....well, whatever you consider the beginning of man.
Obviously it should not be biased, but it would be stupid to leave it out. I mean even the non-religious revelations world-wide were driven by those "escaping" from religion.
There's really no good argument against it. Religion absolutely should be taught in schools. It should be taught alongside world history. Like it or not, but religion has been the driving force for most of the world-wide developments since.....well, whatever you consider the beginning of man.
Obviously it should not be biased, but it would be stupid to leave it out. I mean even the non-religious revelations world-wide were driven by those "escaping" from religion.
Druiddroid
OG
Falkor said:
who cares there's like 500 types of christianity anyways it's not exactly easy to define what a "real" religious person is
you posted an insult and ya that's it lol
tbh i'm all for letting people speak, just make it remotely intelligent, i can tell you're not stupid
scytale
OG
Orcgasm said:
Obviously a tricky situation. Although a religious (raised Catholic) person myself, I cannot condone a religiously based government. As we've seen throughout history, that more often than not leads to an oppressed society.
However, we should have people representing various religions within the government, as we currently do. After all, it's a government of the people for the people. It should represent the demographic of the country. To those of you that don't like that, the majority of Americans claim some type of religion, whether they strictly follow the faith or not.
As for how it's affecting our Country, ultimately I think it's necessary. Different viewpoints and religious morals/ideals are a good balance point. Sure sometimes religion will lead to bad "governmental" policies, but the same can be said for free-market viewpoints, or military viewpoints.
Painaid
The Immortal
Falkor said:
Go to your nearest Catholic Church and ask the church-goers after mass what their beliefs are on abortion, contraception, evolution, etc. You will get as varied a response as anywhere. Why do I say this? Because I've done this before. You can't just lump every Catholic into the same mould and expect to get away with it.
Any assumption, whether you believe it or not, is generally not a smart thing to use when arguing. For one, it leads to false conclusions as evidenced above.
As for the bible-thumping, evolution-denying religious people you are referring to...take a whack at them all you want. But just because you are capable of knocking down this particular strawman does not prove much of anything--not the least of which being the rational idea of theism itself.
Let's stop focusing on extremes and instead start emphasizing the practical.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
Painaid said:
yes you will get varied answers, which just means they aren't true Roman Catholics. they are church goers who don't understand the doctrine. if they were real Roman Catholics they would have no choice but to back the Pope on everything he says and also follow the word of God - aka Bible.
This was/is also the issue with Catholic Presidents (JFK)...who would they listen too; the people of US, or the Pope. Protestants believe only in the bible and have no church hierarchy with bishops, cardinals & a pope, which is more Presidents are a sect of Protestantism and only one was Roman Catholic.
fyi i was raised roman catholic but am currently nonpracticing
Painaid
The Immortal
Falkor said:
What are you trying to say then?
Druiddroid initially says this:
Druiddroid said:
Druid points out not every religious person is a bible-thumping nutcase. He points to his own experience in catholic school where they taught evolution.
To which you reply:
Falkor said:
Here is where it gets fuzzy. No, not all Roman Catholics believe everything you just ascribed to them. You're trying to label them in a certain way just because of the Pope. It's like saying every American must believe as Obama does. After all, we elect him, so it makes sense that he would represent all of our values. But obviously this isn't so. Just because I don't agree with Mr. Obama over hardly anything doesn't mean I'm not an American. In the same manner, not all Catholics take the bible word for word as you indicated, but that doesn't mean they are not true Roman Catholics.
And even if I did concede this point that they weren't real Catholics, do you realize that the Catholic Church probably would not even exist in the U.S. if it required that all its adherents follow the Pope's every decree?
You can continue to play semantics and say that any 'official' Roman Catholic will believe as you indicated, but it does nothing to help your argument. You're highlighting the extremes and are excluding the general population.
Alright, so why am I saying this? Because in your first post in this thread you make a number of unsettling generalizations about Christianity that puts this debate on the wrong footing straightaway:
Falkor said:
In that case, I guess it's perfectly rational of me to say that it was the atheist regimes which oversaw the greatest mass-genocides in human history -- Mao, Stalin, and Hitler.
But it's obvious this is a logical fallacy known as a false cause. In the same regard, your cause-effect of the fall of the Roman Empire is also wrongly attributed. I question why you would even attempt to present that as fact in this discussion. My guess is you are trying to destroy the credibility of religion by saying it is bad for humans, in which case I would be open to debating this with you in another discussion. You are treading on very dangerous ground here.
The only thing these crazy statements do is poison the well (see: another logical fallacy) and prevent any intellectual conversation from taking place in the debate since you have already dropped any religious proponent in the mud, so to speak.
As for the flat earth theory...you do realize atheist scientists held this worldview as well back in the day? This worldview was not because of religion, but rather a fault of a scientific premise. But you don't see me standing up here calling all scientific theories retarded because they got one theory wrong. That is the point of science -- to continuously correct itself.
As for the debate between the Church and Galileo...once again this has nothing to do with religion. But it is an interesting study in the framework of mankind and our lust for power. The Church was simply trying to retain its power over society.
And dare I say power is an atheist worldview? It certainly falls in line with 'survival of the fittest' mentality introduced as a political and social philosophy by Herbert Spencer in the 19th century. But once again, you don't see me reaching to that extreme like you have done. It does nothing to advance our current discussion.
But as Druiddroid and I just explained, this isn't so at all. In fact, very few Catholics in America listen to the pope. They aren't blindly following the Church at all. And Protestantism? It's all about having an individual relationship with God -- not one where a Pastor is the mediator. So I must strongly disagree with everything that you said here. Your statement once again only applies to the extreme.
And if you want to play 'The Weak Analogies game with Zero Evidence', what is stopping me from saying that it is because of Christianity that secondary education exists today? Universities got their start from Christian foundations and were funded and supported by Christian-backed institutions. So it looks like religion is both the usurper and promoter of all education in the world. That's interesting now, isn't it?
And Falkor please don't take anything I just said personally. So many people in this thread have been doing exactly the same thing -- only much worse. And I'm not one to respond (and in turn give credibility to) such rude and defamatory remarks. So I thank you for being so civil in this thread.
Anyway, I'm not sure when bashing religion became the thing that 'all the cool cats' do, but it's pretty pathetic. It makes for having any rational discussion impossible. Even more ironic is the very people who make fun of the deluded belief in a 'magical sky god' and whatever insults you decide to spit out are in the fact the delusional ones.
I don't know anyone else's story. I don't know what caused any of you to believe what you do. Maybe you simply could not force yourself to believe in something that did not have immediate evidence. Maybe you wanted to be a rebel. Or maybe you were not raised in a religious family. Whatever the case, just because you are a 'big bad atheist' does not instantly make you better, smarter, or more intellectually superior than those who do have religious beliefs.
Whatever you believe, all I ask is that you investigate. You may change your mind, and you may not. But you will definitely learn a lot about yourself in the process. Religion is a powerful subject that exists in all human cultures; it defines humanity.
I have the deepest respect for those who actively and honestly investigate the issue of religion -- no matter their final stance on the subject. Atleast they have developed enough self-respect to take the time to understand quite possibly the most important question in life. From the Bible to the Qur'an, to Shakespeare, Hume, and Dr. Seuss: religion and spirituality are the questions at the heart of all others that mankind will ever pose. Give the seriousness of the subject some respect. It deserves it.
If anyone would like any tips on some good books to read on the subject, feel free to PM me. I'd be glad to tell you some of my favorites.
And if you don't remember anything else of what I have just said, atleast remember this: Very few people have earned the right to be an atheist.
I've said my piece, so I'll step off my soapbox and depart from this thread. Au revoir.
Twinkytoes
OG
Hamcake said:
Twinkytoes
OG
Double Post: THERE IS A NEW QUESTION TO ANSWER. REFER BACK TO THE FIRST POST TO SEE IT.
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
Painaid said:In that case, I guess it's perfectly rational of me to say that it was the atheist regimes which oversaw the greatest mass-genocides in human history -- Mao, Stalin, and Hitler.
that wall of txt crit me for over 9k.
hitler was a catholic.
also ur point about catholics in america not following the pope just means they arent true catholics. they're actually protestants who go to roman catholic churches and call themselves catholics. so they should prolly switch churchs. that has nothing to do with your point about americans sharing beliefs with obama just b/c we elected him. we arent bound by anything to share his beliefs just b/c we voted, govt=/=religion; but true roman catholics are supposed to follow the word of the pope. if the church wouldnt exist then so be it, but a real catholic adhears to the pope.
kudos to droids school for teaching evolution, very baffling i admit since it conflicts with the teachings of the roman catholic church.
also the roman empire did fall apart because of christianity. go to your local book store and pick up a book called day of empire by amy chua and start reading on page 50. you dont even have to buy it, just sit and read it...absorb some knowledge.
religion didnt cause its downfall, it was fine with its mix of pagan religions (which catholicism has often absorbed) and the jews...just go read and save me the typing.
clearly you arent very smart. the in 4th century BC greeks knew the earth was spherical. ffs do some research before coming here blathering man. wikipedia is but a website away!
"Whatever you believe, all I ask is that you investigate. You may change your mind, and you may not. But you will definitely learn a lot about yourself in the process."
great quote since i ask the same of you. idc what you believe, i just think YOU should investigate. im sure you wont change your mind (lets be honest nobody is changing religions over a thread on TI...) but you will at least learn somethings that i have posted in this thread.
Druiddroid
OG
falkor i dont think enough people give enough of a shit to change religions even if their views are closer to one religion than their current one
most religious people frankly aren't that fanatical about religion from my experience, i mean fuck for my catholic school, going to church once a week was like being a saint lol
BUT was he a TRUE one??????????
most religious people frankly aren't that fanatical about religion from my experience, i mean fuck for my catholic school, going to church once a week was like being a saint lol
BUT was he a TRUE one??????????
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
Druiddroid said:
oh they definitely wouldnt. just making a point that they are more protestant than catholic....just a funny little observation.
Druiddroid said:
you tell me: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. .. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison." (wiki)
i retract my "hitler was a catholic" statement and revise it to, hitler was a christian (protestant)....just typed catholic earlier in my haste to prove that he wasn't an atheist
Falkor
Twink Info Legend
Cptheal said:
tl;dr
-painaid(sp?) is misinformed on the roman empire and christianity, i assigned him some reading homework.
-he also is wrong about hitler being an atheist.
-and further wrong about atheist scientists coming up with the flat earth theory when in actuality the greeks knew the earth was spherical as far back as 4th century bc.
also: "As for the debate between the Church and Galileo...once again this has nothing to do with religion. But it is an interesting study in the framework of mankind and our lust for power. The Church was simply trying to retain its power over society."
- that has everything to do with religion and through religion the power the church was able to hold over the poor and illiterate masses.