Civilized conversation about the health of EU bracket
- Thread starter Sputnick
- Start date
Mocha
Legendary
Edit:
If you're going to post in this thread, reply to someone with a post that actually conveys a message, your opinion, supports or respectfully disagrees with someone's post. Everything else is spam.
I know this isn't my place but I'm just going to reflect my thoughts on the issue here. Obviously I'm referencing what happened to US which I'm assuming isn't far off from how it's going in EU.
19s have been in a fragile state since the end of Cata. Activity has not been nearly as constant in a long time. There are powerful guilds like RT and TL etc who use "containment" as a strategy to win games. They see an advantage and they take it. If the other team shows mercy, they shouldn't have and they will be forced into containment. It's a game of dominance. I understand this way of thinking and I agree with it 100%. This is how you win games.
However,
We have not had the numbers to accommodate this highly aggressive gameplay in a long time. The health of the bracket is more important than winning a pug. When every game consists of 5 very overpowered classes, in bis gear, in a group Skype call (scrolled or not) this is not how you should be going into pugs freshly after a period of inactivity.
The reason being: New players don't stand a chance. Instead of being "motivated" like many of you believe they will be, they quit. Every player who quits 19s is a player that could have been made into an active community member on a minimal level. There is no ceiling… These kids who could have stayed in the bracket and perhaps could take 19s to a higher level immediately are robbed of that opportunity.
In addition to that, players who are excited to see games popping again queue up to have fun for the first time in a while. They end up seeing the same garbage gameplay that diminished the pool of active players exponentially over the past few years. This play style does not produce a larger community. It favors dominance over appreciation for others in the same community.
I would rather see a community in the hundreds with a lower level of skill than see a limited community who's numbers only diminish.
Skill is developed when the chance is given for it to.
These groups of 5 fotm bis players in Skype (whether they have scrolls or not) are not allowing any growth in the community.
Don't piss in the tent means exactly this:
Sure you can roll 5 op classes in bis gear into pugs with scrolls and in Skype to completely stomp pugs and win 100% of your games. However that doesn't mean that it is by any means a smart decision in terms of creating a flourishing community. It kills activity. Any argument against that is merely flawed.
"Combat or be steamrolled: the weak will be filtered out resulting in a very competitive and highly skilled bracket"
^ That is wrong. Reason being more skilled players have left the bracket than the amount who currently remain in it. This gameplay favors Skype cooperation and class rolling over skill.
I know exactly how 99% of you will react to this post. Especially this final bit:
This gameplay would be perfect for a community where twinks and non twinks are merged together. However, that hasn't been true in years and people need to see that you're farming twinks. This way of gameplay is not gameplay of the future or the present. It's a thought process that only existed in the past.
If you partake in this gameplay you will only cause damage to your own community. No one wants to put up with this shit. When you make someone afk out, you lengthen your own queue times. You should be more considerate towards how the "opposition" feel about your gameplay and compensate for that.
I promise if you start playing in a way that benefits the community as a whole more and produces growth, the bracket will be 10 times more enjoyable than it is now or has been in the past.
Just because you can play an op spec doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can Skype with your friends against pugs doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can keep a team in their gy the whole game doesn't mean you should.
The way people see this fighting fire with fire. The "if they step down and stop capitalizing on advantages, stomp them harder" thought process is natural. However when it turns into "if they step down and stop capitalizing on advantages, we should respect that and do the same" you will see an amazing world for twinking with room for everyone to enjoy the game and grow as a community.
It just takes balls for the first person to step down when they are usually seen taking every advantage.
Cheers,
Mocha
If you're going to post in this thread, reply to someone with a post that actually conveys a message, your opinion, supports or respectfully disagrees with someone's post. Everything else is spam.
I know this isn't my place but I'm just going to reflect my thoughts on the issue here. Obviously I'm referencing what happened to US which I'm assuming isn't far off from how it's going in EU.
19s have been in a fragile state since the end of Cata. Activity has not been nearly as constant in a long time. There are powerful guilds like RT and TL etc who use "containment" as a strategy to win games. They see an advantage and they take it. If the other team shows mercy, they shouldn't have and they will be forced into containment. It's a game of dominance. I understand this way of thinking and I agree with it 100%. This is how you win games.
However,
We have not had the numbers to accommodate this highly aggressive gameplay in a long time. The health of the bracket is more important than winning a pug. When every game consists of 5 very overpowered classes, in bis gear, in a group Skype call (scrolled or not) this is not how you should be going into pugs freshly after a period of inactivity.
The reason being: New players don't stand a chance. Instead of being "motivated" like many of you believe they will be, they quit. Every player who quits 19s is a player that could have been made into an active community member on a minimal level. There is no ceiling… These kids who could have stayed in the bracket and perhaps could take 19s to a higher level immediately are robbed of that opportunity.
In addition to that, players who are excited to see games popping again queue up to have fun for the first time in a while. They end up seeing the same garbage gameplay that diminished the pool of active players exponentially over the past few years. This play style does not produce a larger community. It favors dominance over appreciation for others in the same community.
I would rather see a community in the hundreds with a lower level of skill than see a limited community who's numbers only diminish.
Skill is developed when the chance is given for it to.
These groups of 5 fotm bis players in Skype (whether they have scrolls or not) are not allowing any growth in the community.
Don't piss in the tent means exactly this:
Sure you can roll 5 op classes in bis gear into pugs with scrolls and in Skype to completely stomp pugs and win 100% of your games. However that doesn't mean that it is by any means a smart decision in terms of creating a flourishing community. It kills activity. Any argument against that is merely flawed.
"Combat or be steamrolled: the weak will be filtered out resulting in a very competitive and highly skilled bracket"
^ That is wrong. Reason being more skilled players have left the bracket than the amount who currently remain in it. This gameplay favors Skype cooperation and class rolling over skill.
I know exactly how 99% of you will react to this post. Especially this final bit:
This gameplay would be perfect for a community where twinks and non twinks are merged together. However, that hasn't been true in years and people need to see that you're farming twinks. This way of gameplay is not gameplay of the future or the present. It's a thought process that only existed in the past.
If you partake in this gameplay you will only cause damage to your own community. No one wants to put up with this shit. When you make someone afk out, you lengthen your own queue times. You should be more considerate towards how the "opposition" feel about your gameplay and compensate for that.
I promise if you start playing in a way that benefits the community as a whole more and produces growth, the bracket will be 10 times more enjoyable than it is now or has been in the past.
Just because you can play an op spec doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can Skype with your friends against pugs doesn't mean you should.
Just because you can keep a team in their gy the whole game doesn't mean you should.
The way people see this fighting fire with fire. The "if they step down and stop capitalizing on advantages, stomp them harder" thought process is natural. However when it turns into "if they step down and stop capitalizing on advantages, we should respect that and do the same" you will see an amazing world for twinking with room for everyone to enjoy the game and grow as a community.
It just takes balls for the first person to step down when they are usually seen taking every advantage.
Cheers,
Mocha
Last edited by a moderator:
Trialdruid
the Oracle
like tbh, TL farming is whatever I just don't seem them having any kind of progress in activity or any other players improving
(READ TL: ) if you really wanted people to play you or improve you would meet them half-way, like sometimes playing other faction, getting more people to play in either side, scrimming and telling what people do wrong in delicate matter so they know what to improve in, respecting each other, teaching something the other team doesn't know about their class and/or giving any kind of contribution towards anyone else that is not in the guild
you need to meet them mid way 'cause by your game-play the bracket hasn't gone in any direction, like do something good for the bracket and eventually you will get something good out of it
I just cba to repeat the obvious since it is right in front of you eyes
when you keep contributing towards the bracket all the time, it will get better for everyone, more active, people will play better, it will be more pleasent to play, more competetive
like honestly fuck all this forum shit "balblalbalblal dodge lbalblal" stop talking just _DO_
(READ TL: ) if you really wanted people to play you or improve you would meet them half-way, like sometimes playing other faction, getting more people to play in either side, scrimming and telling what people do wrong in delicate matter so they know what to improve in, respecting each other, teaching something the other team doesn't know about their class and/or giving any kind of contribution towards anyone else that is not in the guild
you need to meet them mid way 'cause by your game-play the bracket hasn't gone in any direction, like do something good for the bracket and eventually you will get something good out of it
I just cba to repeat the obvious since it is right in front of you eyes
when you keep contributing towards the bracket all the time, it will get better for everyone, more active, people will play better, it will be more pleasent to play, more competetive
like honestly fuck all this forum shit "balblalbalblal dodge lbalblal" stop talking just _DO_
Redrum
:|
I just came to say this and to try and clarify whether I understand all this correctly and establish what the actual problem is and whether this is a dead cause.
(It's long sorry although I tried to keep to the key points and keep it as civilized as possible.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a nutshell:
- TL dominates EU pops with their faceroll comps and high level of play and premade organization (which you do, there's no denying - there simply aren't enough people playing at that competitive of a level anymore here to put up a fight)
(Then again all TL seem to queue with is fotm ranged dps classes that literally 1-2 shot everything anyway coupled with scrolls and pocket healers that no pug has a chance in hell of beating yet you are dribbling about fotm pugs of under-geared players? Thanks for the laugh)
- Months pass, activity gets lower and lower until it reaches an almost dead state.
- People play wargames between themselves when they can between the bursts of activity..
(TL, HSA, AAO, QITBB, everyone - until eventually there's fuck all happening at any sort of consistent time for it to be worth even q'ing or logging our toons because there are no more players coming into the bracket, only leaving.)
- TL plead for people to man up, step up their games and challenge them.
- Nothing.
- TL decide EU is not worth playing and that all it's players are trash so they move to US.
(Where the actual real competition and activity is, and where you guys get the challenge you require.)
- EU, now with it's metaphorical asshole in tatters - has no choice but to find more players from other sources to keep itself alive.
Follow carefully now 'cause this is where it gets baffling/stupid/dumb/contradictory/unbelievably retarded take your pick of words and where many young readers are losing their way:
- I decided to give it a shot myself since I have been in contact with people from here for many months about such a thing before it even saw the light of day in public and it sounded like it COULD work based on who had interest but with those people alone this would inevitably fail like past attempts so we would need to promote the bracket and get more people interested.
- Generally, the other people left who still had an interest decided to give their support to work on forming a new guild(s) and hopefully bring a spark back to the EU side of things with an aim to bring more players into the bracket thus giving us an actual base of activity to work with.
- TL suddenly come out of nowhere to shoot us down with all their negativity, trolling and other dirty bullshit that they do to drive people away every time for whatever reasons they have.
(More than likely because they want to take some kind of credit for this taking off, when in reality we could have easily stayed on Horde and went ahead with this because we are not thinking about a short-term 1 week fix but rather long-term activity over 2014 and whether TL helps or not is only a small part of the endgame idea)
- TL flat out state we are going to fail and continue their trolling instead of actually helping, but why should you help? It's not your job to find competition, this is understandable and a fair point.
(But you can't have it both ways, you either welcome the activity or you don't and it looks like you have little interest in keeping EU alive to actually drum up the competition you so desire or even expand the player-base based on your actions over the last week so why continue to act like we are doing something wrong/bad when you don't care what we do in the first place?)
- People start transferring/re-rolling/getting active again, this in turn discomforts/displeases/enrages TL for some odd reason to the point that they need to let everyone know they are still there (#kidswhowantattention) and kick up a huge shit-storm when these people turn around and say TL are no longer a factor in their enjoyment of the game, just as TL did to them.
- TL feel compelled to harass these said people via this forum, realid, level 1 toons, nerds sat in our guild channel on remote chat relaying chat feed etc. - but whatever, it is just baby level trolling and a desperate attempt for attention because these people are giving less of a shit about TL as the days go by.
- 5 days into the project we have players online, we know the only people we can face in a random pop are TL and we know we cannot compete with them without a solid team and some practice which sadly takes time and preparation, you will get your challenge but you can't expect it to happen in a few days considering what we are working from.
(Many people in this guild are rusty, under-geared, have technical issues, have no premade experience or are just not interested in playing matches that either are lost before the gates open or involve sitting about waiting for the game to end while 9 players gangbang them on yard.)
- We decide to do some wargames (which are now apparently illegal for us lowly maggots to enjoy and only a chosen few are allowed the honor to do so without being criticized or flamed it seems, #hypocrisy and #doublestandards ) and TL get mad because they can't get involved or w/e since nobody wants to play with them thus they spend their time on level 1 toons trolling.
(Yet another laugh when you take all of the above into context. Just a thought though, why don't you piss off back to US servers and play since there is clearly no competition for you here at this time.)
- Some random US garbage posts that have no relevance to me or anyone else involved.
(I don't mean that in an aggressive/offensive way but the these posts were worded clearly to instigate trouble but since this site is US moderated there is jack shit anyone else can do about it and any backchat ends with either a ban, infraction or deleted posts while these other trolls go on the rampage with their trash talk so there is no freedom to discuss this or even get them to lay off while we come to an agreement.)
- Cue full scale pointless flame/rage fest about totally irrelevant crap like dodging, getting upset because someone called you a name in /g chat (more #hypocrisy and yet another free laugh) and focusing on completely the wrong points that are presented to you.
(I don't speak for all but I personally couldn't give a shit about containment, it has always happened and is always going to happen. Although you do cap the flags, I would rather play a wargame with balanced teams and have a good match than get stomped into the floor with a sub-par group that has no experience playing together and has literally no chance of even making it across midfield.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, to TL:
Why do you continue to act as though you want to help/get competitive games when the only thing you can contribute is mindless trolling and criticisms that are both hypocritical and contradictory?
If TL had done what we have tried to do you would be having everyone line up to kiss your asses round about now and you know it, we are trying to help this bracket flourish and if you can't see that then you are either very deluded or just plain mentally deficient.
Care to explain here and now what is it that TL actually want and why what we are doing bothers you so much? Or is it just that - a big troll game out of spite, jealousy or the fact that you just are indeed trolls?
If it's the latter I can handle it, every game has it's trolls but don't go acting like you are the heroes if EU does come back to life, that credit is on everyone else making that effort unless you change your ways/presentation of the bracket.
Give the people still involved with the EU side of things a reason why they in turn shouldn't just say "Go fuck yourselves." as you previously have done to them countless times and are still continuing to do so.
inb4 condescending Ondura and Arkant have a good go at tearing this post apart, feel free because this is the last long one on the subject I'll be posting unless there are some valid questions/arguments to come to an agreement on or that need to be answered I will do so in a civilized manner if you extend me the same courtesy.
(So far there have been none, and you're just making yourself look like clowns now and I'm starting to doubt whether half of you even comprehend what is being said to you.)
We have wasted a lot of time, effort and even a bit of money putting this guild together and if all it's been for is to go back to 2010 elitist nerd-fests over a horribly shallow meta-game then I'll drop out now while it's still early and let someone else take over and put up with all the shit because it's looking like I made a mistake in thinking there was some level of maturity and/or respect within this community/board and I honestly have better things to do than argue over something so trivial.
Peace.
(It's long sorry although I tried to keep to the key points and keep it as civilized as possible.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a nutshell:
- TL dominates EU pops with their faceroll comps and high level of play and premade organization (which you do, there's no denying - there simply aren't enough people playing at that competitive of a level anymore here to put up a fight)
(Then again all TL seem to queue with is fotm ranged dps classes that literally 1-2 shot everything anyway coupled with scrolls and pocket healers that no pug has a chance in hell of beating yet you are dribbling about fotm pugs of under-geared players? Thanks for the laugh)
- Months pass, activity gets lower and lower until it reaches an almost dead state.
- People play wargames between themselves when they can between the bursts of activity..
(TL, HSA, AAO, QITBB, everyone - until eventually there's fuck all happening at any sort of consistent time for it to be worth even q'ing or logging our toons because there are no more players coming into the bracket, only leaving.)
- TL plead for people to man up, step up their games and challenge them.
- Nothing.
- TL decide EU is not worth playing and that all it's players are trash so they move to US.
(Where the actual real competition and activity is, and where you guys get the challenge you require.)
- EU, now with it's metaphorical asshole in tatters - has no choice but to find more players from other sources to keep itself alive.
Follow carefully now 'cause this is where it gets baffling/stupid/dumb/contradictory/unbelievably retarded take your pick of words and where many young readers are losing their way:
- I decided to give it a shot myself since I have been in contact with people from here for many months about such a thing before it even saw the light of day in public and it sounded like it COULD work based on who had interest but with those people alone this would inevitably fail like past attempts so we would need to promote the bracket and get more people interested.
- Generally, the other people left who still had an interest decided to give their support to work on forming a new guild(s) and hopefully bring a spark back to the EU side of things with an aim to bring more players into the bracket thus giving us an actual base of activity to work with.
- TL suddenly come out of nowhere to shoot us down with all their negativity, trolling and other dirty bullshit that they do to drive people away every time for whatever reasons they have.
(More than likely because they want to take some kind of credit for this taking off, when in reality we could have easily stayed on Horde and went ahead with this because we are not thinking about a short-term 1 week fix but rather long-term activity over 2014 and whether TL helps or not is only a small part of the endgame idea)
- TL flat out state we are going to fail and continue their trolling instead of actually helping, but why should you help? It's not your job to find competition, this is understandable and a fair point.
(But you can't have it both ways, you either welcome the activity or you don't and it looks like you have little interest in keeping EU alive to actually drum up the competition you so desire or even expand the player-base based on your actions over the last week so why continue to act like we are doing something wrong/bad when you don't care what we do in the first place?)
- People start transferring/re-rolling/getting active again, this in turn discomforts/displeases/enrages TL for some odd reason to the point that they need to let everyone know they are still there (#kidswhowantattention) and kick up a huge shit-storm when these people turn around and say TL are no longer a factor in their enjoyment of the game, just as TL did to them.
- TL feel compelled to harass these said people via this forum, realid, level 1 toons, nerds sat in our guild channel on remote chat relaying chat feed etc. - but whatever, it is just baby level trolling and a desperate attempt for attention because these people are giving less of a shit about TL as the days go by.
- 5 days into the project we have players online, we know the only people we can face in a random pop are TL and we know we cannot compete with them without a solid team and some practice which sadly takes time and preparation, you will get your challenge but you can't expect it to happen in a few days considering what we are working from.
(Many people in this guild are rusty, under-geared, have technical issues, have no premade experience or are just not interested in playing matches that either are lost before the gates open or involve sitting about waiting for the game to end while 9 players gangbang them on yard.)
- We decide to do some wargames (which are now apparently illegal for us lowly maggots to enjoy and only a chosen few are allowed the honor to do so without being criticized or flamed it seems, #hypocrisy and #doublestandards ) and TL get mad because they can't get involved or w/e since nobody wants to play with them thus they spend their time on level 1 toons trolling.
(Yet another laugh when you take all of the above into context. Just a thought though, why don't you piss off back to US servers and play since there is clearly no competition for you here at this time.)
- Some random US garbage posts that have no relevance to me or anyone else involved.
(I don't mean that in an aggressive/offensive way but the these posts were worded clearly to instigate trouble but since this site is US moderated there is jack shit anyone else can do about it and any backchat ends with either a ban, infraction or deleted posts while these other trolls go on the rampage with their trash talk so there is no freedom to discuss this or even get them to lay off while we come to an agreement.)
- Cue full scale pointless flame/rage fest about totally irrelevant crap like dodging, getting upset because someone called you a name in /g chat (more #hypocrisy and yet another free laugh) and focusing on completely the wrong points that are presented to you.
(I don't speak for all but I personally couldn't give a shit about containment, it has always happened and is always going to happen. Although you do cap the flags, I would rather play a wargame with balanced teams and have a good match than get stomped into the floor with a sub-par group that has no experience playing together and has literally no chance of even making it across midfield.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, to TL:
Why do you continue to act as though you want to help/get competitive games when the only thing you can contribute is mindless trolling and criticisms that are both hypocritical and contradictory?
If TL had done what we have tried to do you would be having everyone line up to kiss your asses round about now and you know it, we are trying to help this bracket flourish and if you can't see that then you are either very deluded or just plain mentally deficient.
Care to explain here and now what is it that TL actually want and why what we are doing bothers you so much? Or is it just that - a big troll game out of spite, jealousy or the fact that you just are indeed trolls?
If it's the latter I can handle it, every game has it's trolls but don't go acting like you are the heroes if EU does come back to life, that credit is on everyone else making that effort unless you change your ways/presentation of the bracket.
Give the people still involved with the EU side of things a reason why they in turn shouldn't just say "Go fuck yourselves." as you previously have done to them countless times and are still continuing to do so.
inb4 condescending Ondura and Arkant have a good go at tearing this post apart, feel free because this is the last long one on the subject I'll be posting unless there are some valid questions/arguments to come to an agreement on or that need to be answered I will do so in a civilized manner if you extend me the same courtesy.
(So far there have been none, and you're just making yourself look like clowns now and I'm starting to doubt whether half of you even comprehend what is being said to you.)
We have wasted a lot of time, effort and even a bit of money putting this guild together and if all it's been for is to go back to 2010 elitist nerd-fests over a horribly shallow meta-game then I'll drop out now while it's still early and let someone else take over and put up with all the shit because it's looking like I made a mistake in thinking there was some level of maturity and/or respect within this community/board and I honestly have better things to do than argue over something so trivial.
Peace.
Last edited by a moderator:
The Saint
I won't like you
you don't get it. one day when you want that tent in will still stink from the last time... unless you don't plan on coming bk to eu 19s, and in that case it will be a happy new year.
Nìck
Legend
Attachments
Ondura
Legend
He was afk in the flag room the minute the game started, but yeah.
If any of you were in that last game and question "What TL give to this bracket" speak no more.
Zanykiss
Legend
so TL queued bgs and people refused to queue ? huh never happened before.
oh and TL won? wow that never happens either.
I see no fault, Bios can play inguild whatever they want, perhaps it is not the best for the bracket as a whole when games could be happening in normal warsongs, but bios can always argue that they would just lose and it is no fun for them so they wanna play within their own level of players and that is their choice.
TL plays both EU and US anyway so they can probably wait until BIOS feel like starting to queue normal games.
Ps Fhayr u should come back and fake cast n things!!
oh and TL won? wow that never happens either.
I see no fault, Bios can play inguild whatever they want, perhaps it is not the best for the bracket as a whole when games could be happening in normal warsongs, but bios can always argue that they would just lose and it is no fun for them so they wanna play within their own level of players and that is their choice.
TL plays both EU and US anyway so they can probably wait until BIOS feel like starting to queue normal games.
Ps Fhayr u should come back and fake cast n things!!
Trialdruid
the Oracle
Vianco, don't be like that
Redrum
:|
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
Sputnick
Made in EU
How is this possibru
Distraction
Guest
Stubs
Legend
Stop it troll
Llare
your dad
dont you worry your pretty little head
i see TL has turned into a casual funtime guild, is about time
inviting people like ondura is a good way to add horde activity gj guys
nice to see everyones doing their part <3