EU+US Bracket integration next xpack

Ok so... you still don’t get it.

Unreal.

If you have a 101 with 300 crit rating, and a 108 with 200 crit rating... who has more crit % in a BG?

The one "closer to cap", or the one "farther from cap"? Show me some more of your "mathematics"...

Which makes 0 sense

Because you're explaining it to yourself and you have no fucking clue wtf you're talking about.

Especially in saying:
because blizzard will realize this when they are about to integrate the 110s
 
Unreal.

If you have a 101 with 300 crit rating, and a 108 with 200 crit rating... who has more crit % in a BG?

The one "closer to cap", or the one "farther from cap"? Show me some more of your "mathematics"...



Because you're explaining it to yourself and you have no fucking clue wtf you're talking about.

I have no clue what I’m talking about?

Dude, it’s simple observation. 110 has x amount of secondaries. 111 will have x + some because they will have same gear but 4x stronger gems and enchants.

And you think with that being said, they will scale down 110s even worse?

Your a fucking nut dude
 
Exactly. You don't have a single fucking clue.

If you LISTEN.... you will understand. You cant listen tho, you're too busy "observing" and crucifying math.
 
Exactly. You don't have a single fucking clue.

If you LISTEN.... you will understand. You cant listen tho, you're too busy "observing" and crucifying math.

I think you have done too much observation on how things work for 111, and now your dead set on KNOWING that 110s will be scaled the same way

This is becoming comical for me
 
Everything you need to understand has been explained a dozen times. "Comical" would be polite.

If you can ask someone to do those "mathematics" for you you can see why 110 will follow every other bracket.
 
Everything you need to understand has been explained a dozen times. "Comical" would be polite.

All you have done is showcase how 111s scale.

That’s not what this topic is about. It’s about if/what/and why blizzard will scale 110s how 111s get scaled now.

Omega-derpage
 
You made your mundane, to the script expectations clear. Even though there are perfectly good examples on why 110 might not follow the same regiment when it comes to BG scaling.

Now get the fuck out of my thread
 
I do not agree with any of this flaming or insulting, but I will try to explain how this works in bgs exactly to when I know or learned. When your outside of a bg, your stats are your own according to your level and how much each amount gives you. Once you enter a bg, you automatically "level" up to 109. level in the sense you don't gain any abilities and as far as I remember heirlooms don't scale, but your enchants, potions and food, everything stat wise scales to what it would be at 109. You are in stat numbers effectively 109. This means that all % secondary values adhere to level 109 contribution as well. It doesn't matter if you are 101 or 102 with 50 crit, unless you are outside of the bg and at that level. Because, since it follows the rules of level 109, it requires a specific amount to reach each certain %. It doesn't remember or care of your previous level, it sets all your %s and stats according to what it should be for 109 rather than a 101 or 102. Meaning, that if you want to reach that 30% crit you got at 101, you will need a bit more as in all cases the higher you are the more number of secondary you will need to reach the same %, it decreases each level. Now, 101 is unique in that all the gear you can get at 109 you can get equal gear at 101. This means that you won't be able to get much higher gear, and you roughly have the cap gear for the bracket. You will still decrease, but it seems that its at a much better rate possibly by their intent or from the gear or maybe both. But in the 119 bracket the gear increases at a much larger rate, and 110s have much better number to % ratios for secondary than 119. So, if they scaled to 119 in battlegrounds, they would effectively be a 119 and require the same secondaries and primary stat that they would. Since this is not possible at 110, and the 119s any which way have a bit more trouble getting super high secondaries in some cases. All of this leads me to the conclusion that 110 would basically be a leveler in competition, and 119s would still have a major advantage over them. the decrease of % and need for more value in secondaries is at such a rate that 119s would have that advantage. This is amplified even more so when legendaries are disabled in bgs and especially this disablement at 119 shows even more so that when they are in bgs they basically that level, which in this case is 119.
 
I do not agree with any of this flaming or insulting

Me either, buddy. But the only things he wants is to be right or be an asshole... and I cant make him right.

No problem helping him be an asshole, tho. Showing exactly what he doesn't grasp about anything. Even life.

I tried more than hard to explain politely and understandingly. He doesn't want to hear. Called it early. :(
You again don't want to hear.
 
Not sure I want to jump into a thread that is 6 pages of yelling...but basically everyone in here sucks at communicating.

Based on what we know about scaling, @Warglave is most likely right. Theres a chance that 110s get combine into the bracket when a pre-patch comes out and a bunch of stuff changes - but no one can really predict that (and its still likely to be the same scaling, even if some numbers are squished).

The way scaling works in BGs now is that...
  1. Levels less than the cap are brought up to the cap
  2. Gems/Enchants that scale will scale to that new level
  3. The % secondary per rating is brought to match the new level
But lets delve into that a bit further and give some examples.

Number 1 should be fairly self-explanatory. You go into a BG at 111, you come out at 119. Same for 101->109. Same for 10->19.

Number 2 can be seen most easily with vets in the 20-29 bracket. Currently, the best agility enchant to cloak at 20 outside of BGs is https://www.wowhead.com/spell=44631/shadow-armor . At level 20, it gives 3 agi and 7 armor. The way the scaling works, it also gives 3agi/7armor at 29. BUT the best agility enchant for 29s is https://www.wowhead.com/spell=25083/stealth - which gives 3 agi/3 dodge at 20, but at 29 gives 4agi/4dodge. [Note these enchants are changing next week in 8.1.5...but thats the current setup.] So vet rogues actually take the stealth enchant - as in BGs, it scales up to 4agi. This principle applies the same for each bracket. For our specific case - even though 110 has worse gem scaling than 111, that gem will scale up to 119 values in BGs.

Number 3 can be seen from the picture that Warglave has repeatedly posted. You can see that a 111 in BGs maintains the same crit strike rating, but the effectiveness has gone down. If you get a natural 119 and give it the same 267 crit rating - then the 119 will have that same 15.44% crit. This applies to all levels. Its why a level 10 from the MoP days isn't strong anymore - they scale up to 19 and the effectiveness per rating goes down to that of a level 19.

GcJh5zY.png

So now lets examine what would happen if we took a 110 into the 111-119 BG tomorrow and followed these rules.

Rule #1 should be straightforward. The 110 would be scaled up to 119. Rule #2 gets a bit more complicated. Enchants, gems, and legendaries now treat you as a 119. BfA enchants are going to scale up to BfA levels. BfA gems are going to scale up to BfA levels. And legendaries will stop working since you're above level 115. (I'll note that currently, many 110s don't use BfA gems/enchants because they tend to be the same effectiveness as the legion gems/enchants, but are more expensive. We're going to assume the 110 has switched to the same BfA enchants/gems that a 111 currently uses. While this is done to compare on equal footing, it is also what 110s would do if they wanted to BG in 110-119, the same way that level 20 vets enchant based on the 29 scaling.) Finally, rule 3 says that for your secondaries, the amount of rating stays the same - but the scaling ends up what it would be at 119. But keep in mind that our rating will actually go UP since the BfA gems/enchants scale better.

So looking at Warglave's image for a more specific scenario. Lets imagine a 110 DH that has the exact same gear and enchants as a 111 (we'll ignore tincture and any other 111-specific gear). We can guesstimate that our 110 DH might naturally have, say, 230 crit rating outside of BGs. As has been stated - some is lost due to the way BfA gems/enchants scale. Rule 2 says that when the 110 is brought up to 119, then the gems/enchants scale up, so we actually go up to 267 rating! But then Rule 3 kicks in and the effectiveness per rating is brought to 119 levels, giving us the same 15.44% crit strike chance as the 111.




@Veechard - You've been coming at it with a different angle. You're looking at the % stats lost going from level 101 -> 109 (or 60->69, 70->79, etc). Its not a bad way to look at it, and was considered when people were trying to figure out how scaling works. You've found a pattern that most of the time, 10% stats are lost between the bottom and top of the bracket. The 111->119 situation doesn't fit your pattern, so you're assuming that 110+ or 111+ (current xpac levels) is scaled differently for some reason. Its not a bad train of thought - but it isn't quite correct. Lets go through a couple of points.

First is the pattern happens to fit the data, but that ends up being a coincidence rather than blizzard straight applying a 10% stat loss. So lets test it. Given rules 1 and 3 above - lets pick a 101 toon with one set of gear, no enchants, and no heirlooms. If we level from 101 to 109 and stop in a BG each level without changing gear, then your toon will stay the same power and have the same crit % every level. Agreed? Thinking through it - a level 101 with an arbitrary set of greens will scale up to 109, the greens will provide the same crit rating, but its scaled down to 109 effectiveness. We're basically a 109 in 101 greens. Say we level to 102 and don't replace ANY gear. We go into a BG and the greens still give the same rating, but we're scaling up to a 109 and get 109 effectiveness. We're still basically a 109 in 101 greens. Skip a few steps and we finally hit 109 - but we're really bad and haven't upgrade any gear. We'll actually have the same effectiveness outside of BGs as we do inside of BGs - as we're 109 in both places. And we'll have the same numbers as every level before - since we ARE a 109 in 101 greens. If you have an old toon that is near the beginning of a bracket - equip a set of gear (no scaling enchants and no heirlooms) - you take a screenshot in the same gear in BGs and your stats will be about the same as you level through the bracket. Note that the amount of health per stam increases per level, so your health will scale up. You may also have some slightly different numbers due to talents or skills learned - but it'll basically be the same.

So then to the second point. Why is 111->119 so different in % stats lost compared to the earlier brackets? Warglave brought it up (in a non-helpful and combative manner, but still...) - its due to the stat squish that happened at the end of legion. Before that stat squish, the amount of stats on gear was growing exponentially. Its like watching dragonball Z - each season (xpac), theres a new big bad enemy that is going to destroy the earth/solar system/universe (azeroth) that is WAAAAAY stronger than before, so our heroes need to train to crazy new levels of super saiyan or special abilities (level up to the new level cap and get raid gear) in order to beat them. However its not really sustainable...what started as over 9000 in the first season was probably something like 9 trillion or some shit by the end (I didn't get that far). Likewise, without the stat squish - you would probably have 20 or 30 million health right now. So what the stat squish did is flattened that exponential curve into a linear curve from 1-110. Then BfA happens and does its usual exponential growth bullshit - but since we flattened the curve from 1-110, its only 110-120 that has the exponential growth. Thats why most of the numbers look pretty similar when going from 60-69 or 101 to 109 - the stats have been flattened. But the gear from BfA scales exponentially.

So we have 119s with 333 ilvl gear. That is way better than the 110/111s which are limited to mostly 265 gear. When a 111 steps into the 119 BGs - they are basically a 119 wearing 111 gear and fighting the 119s wearing 119 gear. But since BfA growth is exponential, the difference in gear between 111 and 119 is way bigger than it is from 60 -> 69.

Chances are there will be a pre-patch for next xpac when the bracket is merged. And who knows wtf they'll do. But as of right now, this is our best guess of how it works (backed by numbers).

I hope that helps.

TL;DR - Warglave is right, but couldn't quite communicate the details. Veechard had a decent starting theory, but wants the details that Warglave wasn't able to communicate. And then things went downhill from there....for 6 pages...god damn guys.
 
god damn guys.

Thanks for the well-thought input, as always @necroaqua and thanks for taking the time to explain. I tried my best to be brief, and it clearly wasn't even worth that amount of time trying to explain. Good luck getting them to read that.

I took another screenshot in the meanwhile, this time at 60 so it wouldn't be "confusing" as 111. I actually had to swap weapons because the enchant on my one sword scaled up 2 crit when I was leveled to 69 - from +7 to +9 changing the crit rating by two. Don't ask why i had +crit on a 2h, it's a BC/wrath toon and the only level I had to test that isn't X9.

/shrug

59LOFNt.png


Almost no difference from 60 to 69, because it's almost linear like you and Arlaren both explained, I believe.
 
Not sure I want to jump into a thread that is 6 pages of yelling...but basically everyone in here sucks at communicating.

Based on what we know about scaling, @Warglave is most likely right. Theres a chance that 110s get combine into the bracket when a pre-patch comes out and a bunch of stuff changes - but no one can really predict that (and its still likely to be the same scaling, even if some numbers are squished).

The way scaling works in BGs now is that...
  1. Levels less than the cap are brought up to the cap
  2. Gems/Enchants that scale will scale to that new level
  3. The % secondary per rating is brought to match the new level
But lets delve into that a bit further and give some examples.

Number 1 should be fairly self-explanatory. You go into a BG at 111, you come out at 119. Same for 101->109. Same for 10->19.

Number 2 can be seen most easily with vets in the 20-29 bracket. Currently, the best agility enchant to cloak at 20 outside of BGs is https://www.wowhead.com/spell=44631/shadow-armor . At level 20, it gives 3 agi and 7 armor. The way the scaling works, it also gives 3agi/7armor at 29. BUT the best agility enchant for 29s is https://www.wowhead.com/spell=25083/stealth - which gives 3 agi/3 dodge at 20, but at 29 gives 4agi/4dodge. [Note these enchants are changing next week in 8.1.5...but thats the current setup.] So vet rogues actually take the stealth enchant - as in BGs, it scales up to 4agi. This principle applies the same for each bracket. For our specific case - even though 110 has worse gem scaling than 111, that gem will scale up to 119 values in BGs.

Number 3 can be seen from the picture that Warglave has repeatedly posted. You can see that a 111 in BGs maintains the same crit strike rating, but the effectiveness has gone down. If you get a natural 119 and give it the same 267 crit rating - then the 119 will have that same 15.44% crit. This applies to all levels. Its why a level 10 from the MoP days isn't strong anymore - they scale up to 19 and the effectiveness per rating goes down to that of a level 19.

GcJh5zY.png

So now lets examine what would happen if we took a 110 into the 111-119 BG tomorrow and followed these rules.

Rule #1 should be straightforward. The 110 would be scaled up to 119. Rule #2 gets a bit more complicated. Enchants, gems, and legendaries now treat you as a 119. BfA enchants are going to scale up to BfA levels. BfA gems are going to scale up to BfA levels. And legendaries will stop working since you're above level 115. (I'll note that currently, many 110s don't use BfA gems/enchants because they tend to be the same effectiveness as the legion gems/enchants, but are more expensive. We're going to assume the 110 has switched to the same BfA enchants/gems that a 111 currently uses. While this is done to compare on equal footing, it is also what 110s would do if they wanted to BG in 110-119, the same way that level 20 vets enchant based on the 29 scaling.) Finally, rule 3 says that for your secondaries, the amount of rating stays the same - but the scaling ends up what it would be at 119. But keep in mind that our rating will actually go UP since the BfA gems/enchants scale better.

So looking at Warglave's image for a more specific scenario. Lets imagine a 110 DH that has the exact same gear and enchants as a 111 (we'll ignore tincture and any other 111-specific gear). We can guesstimate that our 110 DH might naturally have, say, 230 crit rating outside of BGs. As has been stated - some is lost due to the way BfA gems/enchants scale. Rule 2 says that when the 110 is brought up to 119, then the gems/enchants scale up, so we actually go up to 267 rating! But then Rule 3 kicks in and the effectiveness per rating is brought to 119 levels, giving us the same 15.44% crit strike chance as the 111.




@Veechard - You've been coming at it with a different angle. You're looking at the % stats lost going from level 101 -> 109 (or 60->69, 70->79, etc). Its not a bad way to look at it, and was considered when people were trying to figure out how scaling works. You've found a pattern that most of the time, 10% stats are lost between the bottom and top of the bracket. The 111->119 situation doesn't fit your pattern, so you're assuming that 110+ or 111+ (current xpac levels) is scaled differently for some reason. Its not a bad train of thought - but it isn't quite correct. Lets go through a couple of points.

First is the pattern happens to fit the data, but that ends up being a coincidence rather than blizzard straight applying a 10% stat loss. So lets test it. Given rules 1 and 3 above - lets pick a 101 toon with one set of gear, no enchants, and no heirlooms. If we level from 101 to 109 and stop in a BG each level without changing gear, then your toon will stay the same power and have the same crit % every level. Agreed? Thinking through it - a level 101 with an arbitrary set of greens will scale up to 109, the greens will provide the same crit rating, but its scaled down to 109 effectiveness. We're basically a 109 in 101 greens. Say we level to 102 and don't replace ANY gear. We go into a BG and the greens still give the same rating, but we're scaling up to a 109 and get 109 effectiveness. We're still basically a 109 in 101 greens. Skip a few steps and we finally hit 109 - but we're really bad and haven't upgrade any gear. We'll actually have the same effectiveness outside of BGs as we do inside of BGs - as we're 109 in both places. And we'll have the same numbers as every level before - since we ARE a 109 in 101 greens. If you have an old toon that is near the beginning of a bracket - equip a set of gear (no scaling enchants and no heirlooms) - you take a screenshot in the same gear in BGs and your stats will be about the same as you level through the bracket. Note that the amount of health per stam increases per level, so your health will scale up. You may also have some slightly different numbers due to talents or skills learned - but it'll basically be the same.

So then to the second point. Why is 111->119 so different in % stats lost compared to the earlier brackets? Warglave brought it up (in a non-helpful and combative manner, but still...) - its due to the stat squish that happened at the end of legion. Before that stat squish, the amount of stats on gear was growing exponentially. Its like watching dragonball Z - each season (xpac), theres a new big bad enemy that is going to destroy the earth/solar system/universe (azeroth) that is WAAAAAY stronger than before, so our heroes need to train to crazy new levels of super saiyan or special abilities (level up to the new level cap and get raid gear) in order to beat them. However its not really sustainable...what started as over 9000 in the first season was probably something like 9 trillion or some shit by the end (I didn't get that far). Likewise, without the stat squish - you would probably have 20 or 30 million health right now. So what the stat squish did is flattened that exponential curve into a linear curve from 1-110. Then BfA happens and does its usual exponential growth bullshit - but since we flattened the curve from 1-110, its only 110-120 that has the exponential growth. Thats why most of the numbers look pretty similar when going from 60-69 or 101 to 109 - the stats have been flattened. But the gear from BfA scales exponentially.

So we have 119s with 333 ilvl gear. That is way better than the 110/111s which are limited to mostly 265 gear. When a 111 steps into the 119 BGs - they are basically a 119 wearing 111 gear and fighting the 119s wearing 119 gear. But since BfA growth is exponential, the difference in gear between 111 and 119 is way bigger than it is from 60 -> 69.

Chances are there will be a pre-patch for next xpac when the bracket is merged. And who knows wtf they'll do. But as of right now, this is our best guess of how it works (backed by numbers).

I hope that helps.

TL;DR - Warglave is right, but couldn't quite communicate the details. Veechard had a decent starting theory, but wants the details that Warglave wasn't able to communicate. And then things went downhill from there....for 6 pages...god damn guys.

Seems like you addressed the reason WHY they made gems and enchants spike up for 111, I think? Basically to help bring levelers 111+ up to par in a way?

That’s the one part of this puzzle I’m still a bit stumped about. That there is a clear gap that happens at 111 outside of BGs. And is my only concern on the topic when they do decide to integrate the 110.

I mean, it’s easy to say that 110 scaling will follow suit like all other lower level brackets, but then on the opposite side, 111 jump in gem and enchant values is the only time we have seen this kind of massive jump happen

Is this hidden massive jump a point where blizzard starts BG scaling you differently? /shrug
[doublepost=1552114842,1552114260][/doublepost]Its almost too coincidental that at 111 not only do you start really getting amazing gem and enchant values, AND also see an almost 50% nerf I’m secondary stats, compared to all other bottom of bracket bump ups, @ about 10%
 
Seems like you addressed the reason WHY they made gems and enchants spike up for 111, I think? Basically to help bring levelers 111+ up to par in a way?

That’s the one part of this puzzle I’m still a bit stumped about. That there is a clear gap that happens at 111 outside of BGs. And is my only concern on the topic when they do decide to integrate the 110.

But I guess you had stated that 110 gems will bump up to higher values when you enter?

I mean, it’s easy to say that 110 scaling will follow suit like all other lower level brackets, but then on the opposite side, 111 jump in gem and enchant values is the only time we have seen this kind of massive jump happen

Is this hidden massive jump a point where blizzard starts BG scaling you differently? /shrug
[doublepost=1552114842,1552114260][/doublepost]Its almost too coincidental that at 111 not only do you start really getting amazing gem and enchant values, and also see an almost 50% nerf I’m secondary stats, compared to all other bottom of bracket bump ups, @ about 10%

The clear gap between 110 and 111 with the gems/enchants just happens to be where the scaling kicks it up. Basically 111 is BfA content and gets BfA scalings, which is a huge jump from the 110 legion stuff (still part of the stat squish).

As for the jump from 110-111 in scaling - you see it (or at least, saw it before the stat squish) with heirlooms hitting expacs. The level 60 heirloom was ok, but the jump to 61 was HUGE since it got you into BC scaling.

If you have a random toon you can do the same experiment I mentioned earlier with getting a random set of greens at 111 and the queing and looking at your stats. Level to 112 with the same gear, queue again and look at the stats. When you hit 119 with the same gear, it'll still be the same stats. It just happens that the exponential scaling of $CURRENT_XPAC ends up with the effectiveness going down much more than at lower brackets.
 
The clear gap between 110 and 111 with the gems/enchants just happens to be where the scaling kicks it up. Basically 111 is BfA content and gets BfA scalings, which is a huge jump from the 110 legion stuff (still part of the stat squish).

As for the jump from 110-111 in scaling - you see it (or at least, saw it before the stat squish) with heirlooms hitting expacs. The level 60 heirloom was ok, but the jump to 61 was HUGE since it got you into BC scaling.

If you have a random toon you can do the same experiment I mentioned earlier with getting a random set of greens at 111 and the queing and looking at your stats. Level to 112 with the same gear, queue again and look at the stats. When you hit 119 with the same gear, it'll still be the same stats. It just happens that the exponential scaling of $CURRENT_XPAC ends up with the effectiveness going down much more than at lower brackets.

Now your just starting to take the point of warglaive, in that your giving examples of how 111, 112, 113 etc work. That’s all fine and dandy, but you even said, they did the large increase of gems and enchants because of the xpack and wanted a seperation.

So if blizzard even draws imaginary lines, do you think they just disregard that, and will do so when bringing in 110 to bracket?

I tend to believe they are well aware of separation and either A won’t integrate at all, or if they do, have it be done in a different way than 111+ sees
[doublepost=1552115600,1552115339][/doublepost]Seems like every time the topic gets delved into, the bit about the fact blizzard drew a giant imaginary line from 110/111 gets forgotten about. What makes you think they will disregard that when seeing how fair it will be if they let lose the way scaling works for 111+, on 110s
[doublepost=1552115994][/doublepost]You can make it as fair as possible when entering the BG, but with the current system, players with EXTREMELY high secondaries can just offset that loss they get from being scaled up. But blizzard clearly caught onto that and scaled back how 111 secondary’s tone down. So it’s like a double edged sword. Yes they have high amounts going into bgs because of the gem and enchant boost, but clearly get throttled way more than other brackets do.

So with that logic, wouldn’t a character just under that invisible line, also avoid the excessive down scaling of secondary’s so harshly? Aka 110
[doublepost=1552116393][/doublepost]I mean, is it not uncanning that 111 stats in bgs get halved, and coincidentally that’s the same level that gems and enchants grow 4 fold?

I think this was done very strategically by blizz, knowing those extra boosts will really be OP if they don’t tone down 111+. So is it that far fetched to think that 110, since they are below that gem and enchant boost, will also avoid such a heavy secondary pruning?
 

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