BIS fc and why

[Bop]

This thread has degenerated into monkeys throwing poo at each other.

 

[Mesikämmen]

170 rejuv offheals are serious business as Guardian. Even if it means losing all your bulk.

It's not even that high, maybe 70 ticks in bgs

 

[Srs]

The problem I am seeing is that there are two kinds of people in this thread...

There are people who have played competitive max level, that are competent, and know strategies FOR RBG'S.

And there are people that only play in this 20-24 bracket... and are thinking of this as a premade versus a pug... where they just get throw alot of damage down range... and they can just GY farm.

The prior strategy will always be a more sound strategy, and will not only work for premade vs pug, but will be competitive as a sort of 'F2P RBG'.

I think you hit the nail on the head. RBGs are a whole different story than what we are dealing with. While I appreciate RBG experience, and the strategies developed within. I liken this bracket more to random battlegrounds at 90, where you have people in full Grevious vs. fresh 90s coming in with crap PvE gear, no enchants or gems. While I think some things in this game are universal, I think we are talking apples and oranges here.

 

[Goesid]

I think you hit the nail on the head. RBGs are a whole different story than what we are dealing with. While I appreciate RBG experience, and the strategies developed within. I liken this bracket more to random battlegrounds at 90, where you have people in full Grevious vs. fresh 90s coming in with crap PvE gear, no enchants or gems. While I think some things in this game are universal, I think we are talking apples and oranges here.

The people in the currently major argument are discussing premade vs premade.

 

[Srs]

The people in the currently major argument are discussing premade vs premade.

I guess I was thinking of oQueue premades, where some comps may have consisted of undergeared scubs. Not likely to have seen many premade vs, premade there, but then, neither are you to have seen that in this bracket either. But I digress.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that RBGs and what we deal with are two totally different things (trying to aviod idioms), and that a f2p premade has more in common with other game modes than endgame RBGs with resil, pvp gear, enchants and so on.

 

[Goesid]

I guess I was thinking of oQueue premades, where some comps may have consisted of undergeared scubs. Not likely to have seen many premade vs, premade there, but then, neither are you to have seen that in this bracket either. But I digress.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that RBGs and what we deal with are two totally different things (trying to aviod idioms), and that a f2p premade has more in common with other game modes than endgame RBGs with resil, pvp gear, enchants and so on.

gotcha

 

[Bop]

I guess I was thinking of oQueue premades, where some comps may have consisted of undergeared scubs. Not likely to have seen many premade vs, premade there, but then, neither are you to have seen that in this bracket either. But I digress.

I guess what I was trying to say, is that RBGs and what we deal with are two totally different things (trying to aviod idioms), and that a f2p premade has more in common with other game modes than endgame RBGs with resil, pvp gear, enchants and so on.

Even with that clarification, I disagree in regards to the metagame for handling Flag Maps / Capture Maps. The playstyles would be extremely similar, I believe, in terms of team fights deciding the outcome of games.

In regards to the argument, "Well that is unrealistic, because there will never be rated battlegrounds at 20. So who can tell?" - I would say, the whole purpose of this thread is speculation as to which FC is better in this type of scenario. So yes, we are allowed to speculate

 

[Metro]

Druids got them jumps and wild charge puts them In lead IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Srs]

Even with that clarification, I disagree in regards to the metagame for handling Flag Maps / Capture Maps. The playstyles would be extremely similar, I believe, in terms of team fights deciding the outcome of games.

In regards to the argument, "Well that is unrealistic, because there will never be rated battlegrounds at 20. So who can tell?" - I would say, the whole purpose of this thread is speculation as to which FC is better in this type of scenario. So yes, we are allowed to speculate

I would not dare to say that you should not speculate — this is Murica — about how things would play out in an idealized f2p premade. I would like to posit that things would not play out exactly as the do currently among geared players, in RBGS. Our metagame is different than the metagame of RBGS, There are huge differences.

These differences must be taken in account when using RBGs as a reference. For example, what effect would not having death knights have on RBGS? It is not small. How would this effect the metagame? How is this relevant to what we are talking about? These are just examples of the kinds questions that must be asked and discussed when having a serious discussion. We must be able to critique and refine our argument in order for progress to occur. I suppose I was not taking the dialogue seriously because many seem enter discussion with blinders on. Not responding to critique, and just continuing to hammer their same point over and over again.

We all have our own experiences, and one must know that one's own experiences biases one's thought. Become aware of your biases — come up with counter-arguments to your own thought, and respond to them. Self-critique is the first step in refining a good idea. Letting others hear our ideas gives us the opportunity for feedback that can show us the weaknesses of our arguments; refuse to listen to others and receive no benefit. You might as well talk to your cat.

If you can try and empathize with what others have to say, and give their ideas the best interpretation possible, and try to include them in your own thoughts. The synthesis of both ideas will often bring forth greater truth,

edit:13 pages of posts. you know, in this amount of time, i probably could have arranged some premades.

 

[Zatox]

I would not dare to say that you should not speculate — this is Murica — about how things would play out in an idealized f2p premade. I would like to posit that things would not play out exactly as the do currently among geared players, in RBGS. Our metagame is different than the metagame of RBGS, There are huge differences.

These differences must be taken in account when using RBGs as a reference. For example, what effect would not having death knights have on RBGS? It is not small. How would this effect the metagame? How is this relevant to what we are talking about? These are just examples of the kinds questions that must be asked and discussed when having a serious discussion.

While this may be true, the basic premise of the meta stands true. 2 equally skilled teams face off in a 10v10, the team that stays in a 10 man cohesive group is going to mow down the opposition.Simply put, the warrior BEST fills this roll, and wasn't that what this thread was about? The BEST FC for Premade vs Premade?

 

[Bop]

While this may be true, the basic premise of the meta stands true. 2 equally skilled teams face off in a 10v10, the team that stays in a 10 man cohesive group is going to mow down the opposition.Simply put, the warrior BEST fills this roll, and wasn't that what this thread was about? The BEST FC for Premade vs Premade?

I am not saying that the Rated BG's would be identical, but they would be similar. The basic premise of where you send your team, your fc, your healers and who you focus in fights, how you handle brutality stacks, how you contain and prevent mounting - all of that is extremely similar, with the only differences being changes in mechanics that allow you to be more efficient at those ends. But regardless, they are similar.

I disagree that the Prot Warrior is the only class capable of tanking in these level 20 "rated premades".

As stated in my original post:

Prot Warriors are better at long-term games where brutality stacks get high.
Guardian Druids are better in games that require a mobile FC, that can deal solid damage and have a good CC while still having good mitigation.
Prot Paladins are better in games that focus heavily on team fights. The massively increased damage and CC can effectively add another DPS class to your team while still maintaining high armor, health, and mobility on a single character.

Edit: in regards to Biases, I am in complete concord with you. People often ignore the opposition to their points. Instead, I am aware of the opposition to my own, but I believe strongly that this assessment is the correct one.

 

[Zatox]

I am not saying that the Rated BG's would be identical, but they would be similar. The basic premise of where you send your team, your fc, your healers and who you focus in fights, how you handle brutality stacks, how you contain and prevent mounting - all of that is extremely similar, with the only differences being changes in mechanics that allow you to be more efficient at those ends. But regardless, they are similar.

I disagree that the Prot Warrior is the only class capable of tanking in these level 20 "rated premades".

As stated in my original post:

Prot Warriors are better at long-term games where brutality stacks get high.
Guardian Druids are better in games that require a mobile FC, that can deal solid damage and have a good CC while still having good mitigation.
Prot Paladins are better in games that focus heavily on team fights. The massively increased damage and CC can effectively add another DPS class to your team while still maintaining high armor, health, and mobility on a single character.

Edit: in regards to Biases, I am in complete concord with you. People often ignore the opposition to their points. Instead, I am aware of the opposition to my own, but I believe strongly that this assessment is the correct one.

I'm not saying other FCs aren't viable. You've made great points for all of them, but in premades its no more then 2 of a class, with F2Ps missing Monks and DKs, and the some specs just not being viable, it doesn't leave alot of wiggle room for the way comps are going to be able to work. You're going to want 2 Hpals for great heal throughput, leaving Prot unable to play, You'll want at bear minimum 1 priest for their bubbles and an occasional fear when the oppurtunity arises. You'll want 1 Boomkin and a Resto Druid, for obvious reasons, leaving Guardian null. 2 hunters for obvious reasons. 2 Eles for obvious reasons. With 1 slot on the team remaining, and unable to use a Guardian or Prot Pal, that leaves warrior.

 

[Rollop]

That would be a very sad fate for rbgs indeed if tanking became obsolete by a tank class. I just talked to a friend in Bailamos who isn't on their team, but still insists that a tank class is meta.

5.3 nerfs have made tank specs unplayable in rbgs. However we can still look at this bracket as a remnant of older rbg strats. Too an extent, anyway.

 

[Bop]

I'm not saying other FCs aren't viable. You've made great points for all of them, but in premades its no more then 2 of a class, with F2Ps missing Monks and DKs, and the some specs just not being viable, it doesn't leave alot of wiggle room for the way comps are going to be able to work. You're going to want 2 Hpals for great heal throughput, leaving Prot unable to play, You'll want at bear minimum 1 priest for their bubbles and an occasional fear when the oppurtunity arises. You'll want 1 Boomkin and a Resto Druid, for obvious reasons, leaving Guardian null. 2 hunters for obvious reasons. 2 Eles for obvious reasons. With 1 slot on the team remaining, and unable to use a Guardian or Prot Pal, that leaves warrior.

I'd personally much prefer to see 5 man "RBGs" if they ever came into existence for free to play - the reasons being that queue times would be faster, and you wouldn't have to require a "only X number of that class", since in 5 man versions you need 2 healers and a tank, meaning you can only really have 2 hunters, rogues, etc as DPS anyways.

But assuming 10 man premades at 20, I think there is a little more room than you say.

One example comp with a Guardian might be:

Guardian - (Tank Role) - Potential reasons given throughout thread
Subtlety - (DPS Role) - Late game brutality assassinator
Destruction - (DPS Role) - Burst damage, CC from fear, pets, and enfeeblement
Boomkin - (DPS Role) - Massive Damage, CC from roots
Elemental - (DPS Role) - High Damage, Utility w/ TS positioning and offhealing
Arms - (DPS Role) - High Burst, Mortal Strike debuff (Calls out Kill/Focus Target)
Frost - (DPS Role) - High CC from Poly, CS, and slows.
Resto Shaman (Healer Role) - Mobility, purge/shears/dispels, +health buff to FC for late game.
Holy Paladin (Healer Role) - Core healer, CC from Hoj, Dispels, off-DPS
Disc Priest (Healer Role) - Heavy CC and kite, bubbles, Mind Control positioning.


I don't believe this comp breaks any of the class restriction rules, but it allows for a diverse set up of classes that all have a purpose and can be a strong presence throughout the game. And it allows for a Guardian druid as FC.

 

[Goesid]

I'd personally much prefer to see 5 man "RBGs" if they ever came into existence for free to play - the reasons being that queue times would be faster, and you wouldn't have to require a "only X number of that class", since in 5 man versions you need 2 healers and a tank, meaning you can only really have 2 hunters, rogues, etc as DPS anyways.

But assuming 10 man premades at 20, I think there is a little more room than you say.

One example comp with a Guardian might be:

Guardian - (Tank Role) - Potential reasons given throughout thread
Subtlety - (DPS Role) - Late game brutality assassinator
Destruction - (DPS Role) - Burst damage, CC from fear, pets, and enfeeblement
Boomkin - (DPS Role) - Massive Damage, CC from roots
Elemental - (DPS Role) - High Damage, Utility w/ TS positioning and offhealing
Arms - (DPS Role) - High Burst, Mortal Strike debuff (Calls out Kill/Focus Target)
Frost - (DPS Role) - High CC from Poly, CS, and slows.
Resto Shaman (Healer Role) - Mobility, purge/shears/dispels, +health buff to FC for late game.
Holy Paladin (Healer Role) - Core healer, CC from Hoj, Dispels, off-DPS
Disc Priest (Healer Role) - Heavy CC and kite, bubbles, Mind Control positioning.


I don't believe this comp breaks any of the class restriction rules, but it allows for a diverse set up of classes that all have a purpose and can be a strong presence throughout the game. And it allows for a Guardian druid as FC.

rsham and 2 melees, you'd get wiped. But running this comp would help you test Albinos graveyard scenario.

 

[Zatox]

rsham and 2 melees, you'd get wiped. But running this comp would help you test Albinos graveyard scenario.

Basically this. The Arms warrior would get absolutely mopped anytime he pushed in for anything, the comp lacks enough hard healing to keep anyone up through the pressure of the hunters / boomkin dots. The mages CS would be null because the healers would be ranging it all game long in the teamfights throughout mid field, and if they push up to go for a CS, they're as good as dead. Rogue and Warlock could potentially work but would be an utterly useless asset until stacks and you go all in on the FC (if that's what you're hoping for, you've already lost)

 

[Zehj]

A (mirrored) comp like that would be more interesting though

those ranged dps heavy games are hardly enjoyable

 

[Dorigon]

I'd personally much prefer to see 5 man "RBGs" if they ever came into existence for free to play - the reasons being that queue times would be faster, and you wouldn't have to require a "only X number of that class", since in 5 man versions you need 2 healers and a tank, meaning you can only really have 2 hunters, rogues, etc as DPS anyways.

But assuming 10 man premades at 20, I think there is a little more room than you say.

One example comp with a Guardian might be:

Guardian - (Tank Role) - Potential reasons given throughout thread
Subtlety - (DPS Role) - Late game brutality assassinator
Destruction - (DPS Role) - Burst damage, CC from fear, pets, and enfeeblement
Boomkin - (DPS Role) - Massive Damage, CC from roots
Elemental - (DPS Role) - High Damage, Utility w/ TS positioning and offhealing
Arms - (DPS Role) - High Burst, Mortal Strike debuff (Calls out Kill/Focus Target)
Frost - (DPS Role) - High CC from Poly, CS, and slows.
Resto Shaman (Healer Role) - Mobility, purge/shears/dispels, +health buff to FC for late game.
Holy Paladin (Healer Role) - Core healer, CC from Hoj, Dispels, off-DPS
Disc Priest (Healer Role) - Heavy CC and kite, bubbles, Mind Control positioning.


I don't believe this comp breaks any of the class restriction rules, but it allows for a diverse set up of classes that all have a purpose and can be a strong presence throughout the game. And it allows for a Guardian druid as FC.

Typically, there's a limit of two stealth-capable classes in low level premades. You have three. Otherwise, arms warrior would get pooped on - rather have a hunter.

 

[Bop]

I can definitely see your concerns as being problems with the comp, but I'm not sure I agree entirely.

First, Arms can be extremely bulky while still putting up mortal strike and maintaining decent damage.
More than anything else I think this is true. Even in a hunter boomkin heavy group, they should use an arms warrior. The Mortal Strike can guarantee a kill that would otherwise not be there.

Second, I think Rshams have enough healing with their other utilities (including shears on nuke casts, DoT dispels, and max health increasers) to justify their presence in these games.

I suppose the mage may just be outclassed. Which is sad. I think it can work with some scnarios. I'd ask carebear for his opinion about it.

5v5 would be best. Since flat bursting would be less likely to get kills than CC with burst. Maybe we should assume 5.2 as the best patch this xpac for proposing rbgs. The biggest problem then were prot warriors, but even they weren't so much of a DPS threat as just RNG burst.

 

[Bop]

Typically, there's a limit of two stealth-capable classes in low level premades. You have three. Otherwise, arms warrior would get pooped on - rather have a hunter.

A stealth limit doesn't make much sense. Intangible classes cannot stay as such for long, or risk having their team get wiped. The more restrictions made, the less likely to occur the actual BGs are. Class limits make sense, since blizzard does not class balance at our bracket. But stealth limits are frivolous, in my opinion. Classes do little for teamfights while stealthed. Also: guardian and boomkin as stealth classes? Sure... I guess... they will be spending 99% of the BG out of stealth though