Armory Poll

[CigNus]

Thats like the least cool gfd item in twinking weve ever had.

hey man, that's all my poor shaman's got after the helm gets nerfed lmao

 

[Chops]

Sure the people that wanna brag about destiny or a 12 agi cloak enchants. But love in the air neck? You did a 2 min dungeon and it happend to get GFd. Thats like the least cool gfd item in twinking weve ever had.

its so uncool im honestly more impressed by average socket necks

 

[Ramazith]

For a little bit over 2 years now I have been visiting the armory page very very often, I simply click all chars from the spec / class I'm interested in and compare everything. I have spent my time in the bracket to ignore GF'd stuff but I can very much believe that newcomers don't have the knowledge to do so.
So I still stand by my idea from last night when the purge happened.

Post an image of your character's build that you want people to see as a guideline for your spec.

If you truly wanted your char in here as help for others you'd have no problem at all swapping your juicy GF'd pieces out for obtainable ones
If you cba to do this, so be it and make your "huge pp massive ego GF'd thread"

 

[JadeFire]

idk how to make the armory a super useful place for new players, like I use the armory all the time still so when I say check the armory its a no brainer for me. Like I am constantly seeing what other ppl are doing on the the armory to develop my own set ups and stuff. But I am also pretty in the know on what is gf'd and what isn't as well. Seeing what other twinks were doing was one of the reasons I started coming to xpoff it would feel weird if there was no armory thread.

Will adding a gf'd tag make the armory useful? It already is for me but I can see it not being useful for others. Tough calls here.

I can see that side, it does feel like there is no correct way to combine the armory/guides/and the already available item resources into one SUPER ARMORY MEGA STORE!

I think the armory was fine and the obvious trash should just be kept out using common sense... it should be for only active current toons... not a legacy pile... do you have a green unsocketed two hander?... go kill yourself... did you miss an item update and your toon still has artifact weapons equipped... bye bitch. General things of that caliber.

 

[Illeezz]

I understand the perspective of an "Armory Thread" serving purely as a resource showing gearing options etc, thus not including GF'd geared chars.
But there are guides for this tbh.

i'd view it as an "community thing"
Past successful Armory Threads also served as a platform to showcase, flex, and even inspire certain gearing directions.

You will always see e-peen show-off, in any game/community. get over it.
its completely normal, and usually even healthy (especially for a small community like this) as it doesn't take anything away, but encourages a certain playerbase to participate in something.

Armories also function to give people ideas, showcasing different gearing directions.
Lets look at what "GFd" CAN indicate.
- old toon (experience in twinking)
- spend mil's on some gfd item (cares more about certain gearing aspects)

Personally, i'll rather look at toons that indicate experience in twinking/gearing, or putting in the "extra 10%".. rather than the same predictable copy-paste green ilvl 28 toon with 20hours played.
Even if i know, that i likely cant get my hands on some of their items.

So it actually is a good resource. As you get insight in somebody elses project/thoughts.
Which you can still choose to ignore btw, if they have an simple "GFd tag".

Not to forget.. "GFd" is not necessarily unobtainable. stuff like ilvl 28 epics, or TBC enchanted items u can still buy.. if u care enough

 

[Banishedjr]

You're not entirely wrong, there was some in it, however if you were getting berated for a stupid decision over the last 24 hours it's hard to come at it with a calm and positive mind.


I never said this, and I straight up just wanted a vote man, I legitimately want what the community wants.

You're assuming here. Which is fine, but genuinely was not the intent.

This was the idea behind the post, apologies it didn't come off that way. Like I said man, I'm human, we all make mistakes, I'm just trying to fix them.

You can call me on discord if you want to hear my tone and intent I swear to the gods I'm just trying to move forward with what the community wants and move past the bad decision that was made.
[doublepost=1640282081,1640281968][/doublepost]
I was wrong (zero sarcasm here I promise)

Before responding, I'd like to emphasize that I'm just a fan of a healthy discussion and i definitely am not defending any attacks against you, there's a line and it was crossed at some points, which is not okay. I respect the work you do for the community.

As a community manager, you made an executive decision and because you seem to value the community the extremely negative feedback must have been hurtful, and that is logical. I was just noting that your post was somewhat contradictory and could have been said differently with some reflection on how best to convey your message in a way that isn't self-validating.

I should have used single quotation marks, I was rephrasing your words into the message I got from them. I know you didn't literally say that. No need to apologize, especially not to me; I think everyone that's an adult understands why this happened and is chillin on the assumption that the poll results will be honored.

 

[ohti]

its so uncool im honestly more impressed by average socket necks

i44 necks just mean you need a job

 

[Banishedjr]

I have never and will never understand peoples attachment to the armory thread, it's true. I just don't get it.

It's a poor resource, it's a poor display of "well geared twinks", it's a poor record of "dedication". All things people have claimed that it's good at.

I would assume people want it to exist for one of those reasons but it sure seems like people just really want it to exist as a place where their toon is listed and acknowledged. That's just ego. Not like "big headed" ego, just ego.

But again, I freely admit that I don't "get" the attachment to the thread.

What I do get is that Cig puts tons and tons of energy into this community and provides a vast amount of content and resources and (often) organizational power to help build it.

And he made a change to a resource he manages and got dogpiled, primarily by people who never really come out of the woodwork until an opportunity presents itself to swipe at visible members of the community

You'll have to forgive me for assuming it's predominantly ego driven because I really see no other motive. If these critics genuinely care about the good of the community and not just people recognizing them in a BG, they have a funny way of showing that.

Ego has a different connotation than pride, which seems to be what you mean. If you're saying that it's all about pride, yes. 100%. My character being on the armory makes me proud, because it's a reinforcement to my perception that I'm a peer of the twinking community. I'm proud because people can see my toon, wonder what my xpoff profile is, browse through the thread, and see that I'm a longstanding member that is still actively twinking. I don't understand why that would be problematic, or a cause for contempt. I was always told to do work that I'm proud of and I'm pretty proud of my work twinking too. I can't imagine for a second I'm the only person who thinks like that, and I don't even care that much about my character. I honestly can't even imagine not being proud of what I've accomplished. I think any limit on the armory is a limit on the community, or at least a limit on the ability to feel like an active member of the community, for the above reasons.

The change represented a drastic shift in policy out of the blue. Just as Cig got defensive making this post, old twinks got defensive about suddenly being excluded without any sort of indication of how to continue to demonstrate their active commitment to the bracket. The good of the community includes the wellbeing of all of the players, and I think it's pretty laughable to suggest that, in this instance, the overall good of the community was considered when changes were being implemented. It seems as though a small subsect of the community, new players looking for gearing templates, was catered to over other members based on the provided insights into the initial idea behind this change.

 

[CigNus]

Quality and genuine responses, thanks @Banishedjr

I was a bit groggy this morning when writing the OP so it probably does seem contradictory, I just wanted to get the damn poll out ASAP to get feedback to correct this.

i44 necks just mean you need a job

Fuk u ohti I work remote and have good work-life balance

 

[Soldjah]

The armory thread have always been about flexing. Just mark the gfd ones at the bottom and we are fine.

PS. I am 100% faster than Goesid

 

[toskosa]

your toon still has artifact weapons equipped... bye bitch.

Hey now my priest still has her ilvl 49 (24 now ) weapon equipped because the one I want wont drop.

 

[Chops]

I don't understand why that would be problematic, or a cause for contempt.

not saying it's contemptible to be proud of your work. I display my toons in my signature for this very reason. I'm extremely proud of my F2P and I'm very attached to my vet (despite my very cool GFd gear not being good enough to actually display)

What I don't get is the thread. It all just seems driven by a desire for recognition and acknowledgment... which you acknowledge. We seem to agree there. I just don't understand why that's important to people, I guess? To the point that your presence on the thread is more useful to that aim than simply participating in the community.

But I want to be clear, I'm pointing this out as a limitation I suffer from, not a problem yall have. I don't get it, but that's on me.

As for the "good of the community" I think you'll have to forgive most of the staff for focusing on new people. They're the ones we tend to interact with.

There are a lot of people on these forums who think that because they twinked in cata or wrath or something, they're owed a measure of deferrence as pillars of the community, despite doing very little these days outside of hanging out in goldshire.

They don't talk to us, don't participate in the community, don't produce guides or content or encourage new players. They don't answer questions or help direct people to useful resources.

But when people who do do those things make changes to those resources, these people come out of the dark, pile on, and insist that they're speaking "for the community".

That's irritating to me.

I'm not going to say "the good of the community" was at play here. But Cig WAS trying to make things clearer and easier on new people.

Maybe not the best execution (or even the best idea! But I liked it) but I stand by my statement that most people's outrage was driven not by a concern for the comminity at large but rather that their toon was no longer in the list and they took that personally.

Obviously the desire is for a more inclusive thread with GFd indicators. Honestly, fine by me. I don't really have a dog in that fight. What I will stand for is getting people to maybe set their egos aside and take it easy on Cig. He tried something. It didn't work. He's fixing it.

More than a lot of folks are doing.

 

[Vyvenem]

CigNus I think you're doing a great job with the Armory. It was a helpful resource for me to see what people were using back in the day, and it's still fun to look at them every now and then to see if a new piece of gear catches my eye that I want to farm.

Marking people as GF can be helpful for new people gearing, but another distinction we probably need is Pure versus Non-Pure. Pures no longer have access to ilvl28 greens with sockets/terts but Non-Pures still do. I farmed my ilvl28s when they were available to Pures, but I've since vendored them in favor of current Pure gear because I would rather have my character be a resource to new Pures than have a tiny bit more power. If I still had ilvl28s equipped, I'd consider myself a GF Pure.

Honestly, we would be a lot better off if we just had way more guides with links to individual gear pieces placed in them. Until we do, this Armory is still a great resource and hopefully new people can do some research themselves to learn what they can and can't obtain.

 

[Kaxle]

I farmed my ilvl28s when they were available to Pures, but I've since vendored them in favor of current Pure gear because I would rather have my character be a resource

You coulda just put them in the bank

 

[Chops]

Honestly, we would be a lot better off if we just had way more guides with links to individual gear pieces placed in them.

yeeeeeeeeeeep

If folks want the armory to be more of a flex thread, we're gonna need some folks to pony up and write some guides.

 

[toskosa]

I wouldn't mind a druid making a druid guide. I would like to see some insights into stat allocation. like I have been trying tog et better at resto and have been trying various set ups but idk.

You coulda just put them in the bank

For real, I hurt irl when I read he sold them to a vendor. shoulda kept just for the cool factor alone.

I might go back and update the spellhance guide thoughthis weekend. still my favorite pet project for 20's

 

[Vyvenem]

You coulda just put them in the bank

I needed that space for, like, copper ore and stuff.

shoulda kept just for the cool factor alone.

I'd like to think I'm cool enough without them.

 

[Kirise]

I'm all for the first option, running an inclusive armory (with strict standards) and noting GF'd gear next to their armory entries. Five reasons why:

1) It creates the least amount of work for @CigNus for what is already a labor-intensive practice on a regular basis. Curating an armory is a lot of work. Months ago, I briefly considered doing an armory thread for 39s, and decided I didn't want to take that on, and that bracket didn't even get games. Making a twink gets personal in a hurry, and managing an armory requires considerable emotional labor to balance an applicant's desire to be in an armory against telling them that no, your twink doesn't qualify because I'm not going to degrade the work of others by putting your twink's pajamas next to them. Alright, it's not that extreme, but the point stands. That's a big deal, because...

2) ...As @Ivo said, part of the function of the armory has always been to show off our build work. That involves ego and pride (definitely both), which build camaraderie in the community. Our characters get shared, judged, envied, questioned, and leveraged to build the next wave of twinks. The more armories show up, the more interest they spawn. For a significant number of people here, building twinks takes priority over actually playing them, and the armory is where we share our passion with the community. Which is why I love...

3) ...The idea of GF tags. Not only do they warn researchers who are figuring out how they want to do a new build, but the tags also act as a de facto badge for people who got the GF'd gear. Yes, that too involves some ego because daggone, do twinks love themselves some grandfathered gear. But regardless of how difficult or how trivial it was to obtain that gear, GF'd items serve as the most accessible way to demonstrate our time here. I have an SL 19 with one of the greatest grandfathered enchantments in twinking history that ultimately provides only a 1% throughput boost over current options, and I'm excited to finish that build and put it in my sig. That bracket won't see the light of day or get into an armory, and I'm still gonna do it. If that's how I feel about an old twink in a dead bracket, I get how people love showing off their grandfathered items in arguably the most active bracket in the game.

4) Lack of clarity in the armory is a feature, not a bug. For most people, figuring out what to wear and why is not a fun part of twinking. They just want answers about what to go grind and where to grind it, so they compare armories and then (apparently) annoy people in discord with questions about what's best when armory comparisons don't provide a clear answer. But asking questions engages people with the community, and also serves to show which people are doing their homework before bringing questions (or giving answers). Props to @Andre for bringing that facet to my attention.

5) Armories offer a place to catch interesting alternatives. Yes, people can log out in meme sets and other crap gear, but it's also possible to catch a twink using an Ember of Nullification, follow the WoWhead link, and discover that while the trinket only drops for tanks, the twink in the armory didn't have a tank spec. The fluidity of armories can prompt more questions than they answer, for all the right reasons. And maybe you'd have more fun putting together a meme set than you might have thought?

As a side note, I'm seeing a couple of people throw around the idea of "just put up more guides". Dismissing for a moment the degree to which those guides actually get used, it takes a ton of time and effort to make a guide. My resto shaman guide clocked in at easily over 50 hours, and that's from someone who brings extended experience with shamans and with writing guides. To be sure, I loved writing that guide, but how big of a coinciding space do you think we'll find in the Venn diagram of twinks and writers? There aren't enough nutcases to go around filling that need.

TL;DR: Keep doing what you were doing before with the Armory, Cig, and add GF tags that point out specific GF'd gear. That will make it easiest on you, and be more fun for the community.

 

[toskosa]

And maybe you'd have more fun putting together a meme set than you might have thought?

More meme sets plz.
I am working on a 19 shaman atm just for fun, I don't expect to get games or anything on it either. It's just fun to make twinks and try out new things.

 

[Banishedjr]

not saying it's contemptible to be proud of your work. I display my toons in my signature for this very reason. I'm extremely proud of my F2P and I'm very attached to my vet (despite my very cool GFd gear not being good enough to actually display)

What I don't get is the thread. It all just seems driven by a desire for recognition and acknowledgment... which you acknowledge. We seem to agree there. I just don't understand why that's important to people, I guess? To the point that your presence on the thread is more useful to that aim than simply participating in the community.

But I want to be clear, I'm pointing this out as a limitation I suffer from, not a problem yall have. I don't get it, but that's on me.

As for the "good of the community" I think you'll have to forgive most of the staff for focusing on new people. They're the ones we tend to interact with.

There are a lot of people on these forums who think that because they twinked in cata or wrath or something, they're owed a measure of deferrence as pillars of the community, despite doing very little these days outside of hanging out in goldshire.

They don't talk to us, don't participate in the community, don't produce guides or content or encourage new players. They don't answer questions or help direct people to useful resources.

But when people who do do those things make changes to those resources, these people come out of the dark, pile on, and insist that they're speaking "for the community".

That's irritating to me.

I'm not going to say "the good of the community" was at play here. But Cig WAS trying to make things clearer and easier on new people.

Maybe not the best execution (or even the best idea! But I liked it) but I stand by my statement that most people's outrage was driven not by a concern for the comminity at large but rather that their toon was no longer in the list and they took that personally.

Obviously the desire is for a more inclusive thread with GFd indicators. Honestly, fine by me. I don't really have a dog in that fight. What I will stand for is getting people to maybe set their egos aside and take it easy on Cig. He tried something. It didn't work. He's fixing it.

More than a lot of folks are doing.

making me feel so old lmao. Just again to reiterate, I think going hard on cig is the wrong approach. Especially given how hard he’s working to include everyone; EXTREMELY respectable.

I mean this in the best possible way; it sounds like you’re not proud of twinking, rather you’re proud of yourself. Which is great, everyone should have some pride. But I think that might be where the disconnect is. I am wholeheartedly, unabashedly proud of the hardcore grinds and struggles I went through to be considered a dedicated member of the twinking community. My 70s are my fucking babies, and I am so proud to be a member of a community that emphasizes grinds and commitments. I think also you might be equating being a member of xpoff to being an active, contributing twink, which is pretentious. There are a lot of twinks that don’t have accounts, or have accounts and just don’t use them often. They are still members of the community, but it’s right to say fuck their opinions for the purposes of the website, in my opinion. I don’t believe I said that recognition and accomplishment are the driving factors for posting; rather a sense of community. I do think that human beings are naturally driven as social animals to desire distinguishing themselves, but I also don’t think that it is safe to assume that this is a primary factor in most people’s decision to ask for their character to be added to the armory.

I have not seen any pleas for new guides from moderators. Have you tried reaching out to players you considered qualified to make guides for new twinks to ask them to contribute? If so, what is the ratio of acceptance?

May you please clarify your statement that older players feel entitled to deference? I have not seen this in action so I am not sure how to respond. If anything, the older players I interact with are all extremely responsive to questions and offer as much information for improvement as possible.

I would like to point out that on Alliiance at least, BH or a BH merger server is where basically everyone is (in my experience). I know I answer a lot of questions from newbies standing in GS just because they’re there. It’s not a safe assumption that characters are not involved in educating newer twinks just because it isn’t through the website. I feel comfortable saying I’m a voice for the community in some ways because of my experience and friendships within the community, and most of that was generated in-game. There is rarely a reason for us to rally on xpoff because the site has been well managed recently (tho rip @ threads ) but big changes like this bring out those of us who generally lurk here and interact with one another in game.

my character isn’t gfd. I’m not outraged. But I understand why people would be, as outlined before. The sense of community is real, and I think it’s easy to see why that would be desirable.

i am not sure if you have a genuine position on this thread with the way you’ve described your paradigm or if you’re just backing up your boy. Saying you don’t understand the issue is a poor way to qualify yourself to discuss it. I respect your viewpoint as a member of the community, but I just don’t see how it reconciles with being proud of twinking.

Edit: I’ve been drinking so I’ll clarify whatever tmrw