Why this bracket is exceptional

Ok my claim is that the que times are linked to people rolling FoTm classes with less people quing.

So are you discussing for the "garbage" side or the non "garbage" side?
We have established that EU off peak times are 40 min. IMO that is pretty damn long. Anything longer than the actual BG is too long as far as I am concerned. But that alone does not make the bracket "garbage". Because...
US peak times are 8-15 min. That time comes from my own experience. My "peak times" are 7-12 CDT, although I usually only play 60-90 min. I play both Horde and Alliance. I solo queue. I queue as a heal. I generally only queue for WSG and AB. Sometimes I will add EotS. Rarely I will add AV.

I think what has attributed to queue times is multifaceted. It is a combination of the introduction of new battlegrounds, skirmishes, releases of new patches, the Twink Cup and lastly the player base moving on(who wants to be constantly berated). All of these have attributed to longer queue times.

/cheers
Sweetsidney
 
I think this bracket is trash, but sometimes enjoyable.

Why is it Trash :

Number 1 factor, Blizzard and it's "Balance".
2. There are 3 types of accounts involved, F2P, Vet, 29s. Each of them has their play-style, and diversity.
3. It is a fact, that F2Ps don't use enchants, and it is going to be harder for them to win the game. But that's the true challenge, being in the lowest "level" of the community and prevailing!
Actually, the low level brackets, that use enchanting are pretty much "Boring" in my OPINION, and by FACT!
The FACT is, the use of enchants leads to a much more Burst-Based game, which gets really boring. This issue however, is not to be seen when you play as a F2P.

Lets take into consideration the 10v10s going on between F2Ps / Vets / 29s . We can all see the difference between The F2P and the others. F2P leads into more interesting and fun to play games. F2P doesn't offer you a BURST-BASED game, it offers challenge, and strategy, and skill. I myself can tell, i felt the difference between F2P and VET wargames.

This bracket is sometimes awesome!

-When you win against 8 p2ps. And you win a game, as a F2P... oh! This is the best feeling, ever. And if you lose, you have time to think what you did wrong and right. And take notes for the next time. To be honest, the other brackets do no offer this. For instance, if you play 19s, you will be against different comps , at an equal "level". The "level" difference is the thing that makes this bracket competitive for me!

blizzard attempts to balance endgame, so any changes that are "unbalanced" in any bracket is simply due to the fact that it server the purpose to endgame
 
So are you discussing for the "garbage" side or the non "garbage" side?
We have established that EU off peak times are 40 min. IMO that is pretty damn long. Anything longer than the actual BG is too long as far as I am concerned. But that alone does not make the bracket "garbage". Because...
US peak times are 8-15 min. That time comes from my own experience. My "peak times" are 7-12 CDT, although I usually only play 60-90 min. I play both Horde and Alliance. I solo queue. I queue as a heal. I generally only queue for WSG and AB. Sometimes I will add EotS. Rarely I will add AV.

I think what has attributed to queue times is multifaceted. It is a combination of the introduction of new battlegrounds, skirmishes, releases of new patches, the Twink Cup and lastly the player base moving on(who wants to be constantly berated). All of these have attributed to longer queue times.

/cheers
Sweetsidney

i was hoping you'd comment on my "feelings"
 
-The addition of several BGs
- Access to more goodies (MOP being added to battlechest)
-Addition of monks to starter edition accounts I guess? WWs and MWs are awesome
-New models

i dont like the male elfs
nelfs look bad
belfs always have that smirk smile that make them look like assholes
 
29's... Yep, it is the 20-29 bracket after all. And it is not as if 29's represent the majority of the bracket.

/cheers[/QUOTE]

y cant we just kept fighting 24s?
is it b/c the 10 extra lvls for endgame?
20-29,90-99
20-24,25-29,
90-94,95-99,
does dev have issues doing math?

i dont mind the 9 lvls, but its extra spells they get
 
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rofl it took quite a while to think of some positive things that this expansion has offered in all honesty

I'm also starting to agree with lanky a little bit regarding the addition of some of the new BGs. I think EoTs is a pretty cool one, however one can't deny that AV has demolished WSG Q times.

The implementation of skirmishes this expansion was awesome, it's too bad a few classes plague it.

i think ppl still do av b/c it gives u rep for frost wolves, leading to the conqueror title
 
What got disputed?
And too late, you failed to ignore me... We are not here to argue anything. At least some are not. We are here to discuss why this bracket is not "garbage" and why it is "garbage".

More improvements.
We no longer have to manually dismount in order to use an ability.
We can use neck and ring enchants!
We can use use leg enchants.
We can use shoulder enchants.
We can use enchants that have no level restrictions.
No longer have to go to a battlemaster to queue for a BG.
Leveling fishing is much faster than it used to be.

Which brings us to 20-10

/cheers

20-10?
the improvements doesn't mean we have the advantage, just that we're almost equal to 29s
minus glyths, and less spells, and not having goblin glider in eots
 
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Sooo there's some trolling here and there, but also some really good discussion. Lenny you nailed the difference between the three types of twinks in this bracket. The way I see it we need to make some effort to segregate the bracket when possible. Trial vs. trial, vet vs. vet, 29 vs. 29.

Positive, we still have a few people trying to have an intelligent discussion on the betterment of the bracket.
 
i've already laid out my opinions on this but i figured i would post a more detailed explanation on here as well.

as i stated in my ban thread, i do believe this bracket is “absolute garbage” at the moment. here’s a disclaimer for my post - i’m a total scumbag. i don’t care about the competitiveness of games. i just want to play, and i will farm if that’s what my team wants to do - the most enjoyable moment for me in MoP was stomping horde f2ps on 24s when myself and some other bwl players rerolled.

i have over 400k hks in this bracket. i’ve been playing f2p on and off since june 2012, so i can’t speak on the earliest part of its history, yet i do feel like i have a decent grasp on the motives for both the f2p and p2p players who are still queueing. i’ve played on pretty much every major f2p realm - ap, bwl, mixxar, et, etc - and for me, f2p 20 was endgame - i almost stopped playing my p2p account entirely, left the heroic raiding guild that i was in, etc. pretty sure i’m still top 3 overall for f2p char specific achieve points, in addition to being one of the first (shoutout to bisonpower for #1 ) pure f2p bloodthirsty on US.

the first major issue with this bracket at the moment - queues. the one redeeming thing about pvp in this bracket has always been the queue times, and unfortunately, they’re absolute shite at the moment. as someone with thousands of wsg and ab games played at this level, i had no interest in those bgs - yet, due to the queue times on random bgs (30+ mins all day), i was forced to queue for those two instead - lowering the queues on horde to around 15-20 mins at what used to be peak hours. sometimes you’ll get lucky and have a few instant pops in a row, yet this is still horrid compared to the previous queues - if they were over 5 mins for horde wsg, even at 5am, something was wrong.

i couldn’t care less about the class balance, considering that i had at least one of every class and several hunters to faceroll with, yet i have to admit that it’s not too bad at the moment. the bad thing, however, from a f2p perspective, is the amount of p2p in the bracket. for as long as i can remember, this bracket has had a f2p majority - usually, there were 3-4 p2p on a wsg team at most unless it was a premade. at the moment, that is certainly not the case - with the influx of both vets and 29s, especially on bleeding hollow and other high pop realms, the large majority of players in this bracket are p2p - it’s not uncommon for there to only be 2 f2p on a team now, and in most cases they will be undergeared jajas.

is this amount of p2p a bad thing? not necessarily. yet, in this case, it is, as f2p are now near useless in comparison - i was still able to compete with, and most cases outplay, most p2p rogues on my f2p, yet i still felt pressured to upgrade to vet in order to stay competitive. the only classes unaffected by this are priests and druids - everything else is near-useless as f2p in comparison to vet, with some specs being unplayable as f2p. a great example of this is f2p affliction warlock, or any non-disc clothie for that matter - aff has never been a strong spec, in most cases i would die pretty quickly in MoP too, yet at the moment it is absolute rubbish - at least in MoP everyone else was still gimped as a f2p too, so you could derp around without fear of being too much of a hindrance to your team. one of my favorite moments as a f2p in MoP was an ab game where i broke 100k dmg as an affliction lock - hid in bushes at BS during teamfights to avoid the jaja rogues who didn’t have nameplates turned on, tab dotted everything in sight, ended up going like 3-8 but guess what? i topped damage and it was still a fun game in my opinion. now, that would never happen, considering that p2ps will global you and there’s no chance of being competitive on damage - now, the most you can hope to contribute is cc, yet that is still unlikely too. it’s the same way with mages at the moment - even vet mages, as i was able to outplay equally skilled players, e.g. tacticz (sorry for being an annoying gnome), with complete ease on my vet rogue.

sure, there have always been strong and weak specs, yet people who are too stubborn to upgrade to p2p, or people who do not have financial means to do so, are not able to compete in pvp at the moment - i know many f2p players who have stopped queueing for this reason. sure, f2p premades might still have some semblance of a chance at winning, yet i’m talking from the perspective of a solo queuer. the bracket also just isn’t interesting at the moment - in MoP, i mainly played on low pop rp realms for easy agm + fishing contest rewards, yet the f2p player base still felt like a community - i would constantly see the same players night after night of bging, despite not being on their realms, and i met many great people from doing so. at the moment, the vet community feels a similar way, due to access to battletags - yet, the f2p community is now an absolute shadow of its former self, with aerie peak being the only active f2p realm. i remember queueing with, and playing against, premades from smaller realms on a regular basis - bwl, vashj, mixxar, etc - they’re all pretty much completely dead now. ap is the only remaining f2p realm, which i think is really sad as i have never agreed with the mindsets of some of the prominent members on there - especially ap horde, which was known for being pretty much as scummy as it gets in MoP, and i deleted my characters on both factions last summer.

now that i’ve finished my rant about f2p, i’m going to try to view this bracket from the perspective of a new player - as a vet, i’ve introduced and funded several, who seem to be finding some degree of enjoyment in the current state of the bracket. positives of this bracket - still faster queues than any xp off bracket outside of endgame, jokingly easy to play pretty much any class, and still a decent amount of undergeared players to farm. most people in this bracket are not playing, at least in random bgs, for competitive games - they want to stomp people with overpowered characters, and horde 29s at the moment is pretty much the best way to do so. horde wins over 80% of the games in this bracket - that’s a fact, and no matter what time of the day you queue, it will not change. feel free to look at all of my characters’ stats if you wish to verify this - my win/loss on my rogue, despite that i played the spec to its fullest potential, is still trash in comparison to some of the characters that i admittingly botted on horde. av is perhaps the best example, with the conqueror title grind being 3x faster on horde than it is on alliance.

outside of the terrible faction balance in pvp, which has existed in previous expansions as well, there really isn’t much going on in the bracket at the moment - i used to always be able to find stuff to do on my alts, whether it be dueling and playing arenas against other f2p in goldshire or farming achievements with other interested f2p. i understand that many players are not interested in these activities, especially players who are new to this bracket, as they mainly just want low level pvp - yet, it’s still depressing to see that there is really no f2p community activity outside of the occasional wargames.

do note that this entire post is my opinions, yet i believe this bracket used to be enjoyable for all players - everyone could find something that they wanted to do in pvp, whether it be facerolling bgs on a 24 or as a f2p hunter, premading with a group of f2p and having a chance at beating 24s, solo queueing and still having a decently fun experience at times as a f2p - i personally believe this is not the case anymore. f2p will now have a pretty horrible time in most battlegrounds, assuming that they aren’t rolling broken specs (shoutout to feral druids), yet you can argue that the same has always been the case - i do believe that in WoD, however, with the addition of vet accounts, things have worsened in terms of balance between f2p and p2p. you will now be pressured into rolling a vet account in attempt to find enjoyable pvp, and i do admit that vet accounts can be fun - i average over 40 kbs in av games now, for example, which i would not have been able to do as a f2p sub rogue. the issue is that the bracket is significantly less enjoyable for everyone, and queue times have suffered as a result - also, due to the addition of the two new battlegrounds, which are a mixed blessing - they give more variety and the potential for new achievements, yet they lead to longer queues for both random bgs and people who specifically queue wsg.

this entire post is my opinion - i’m sure some of you will disagree. with that said, in my opinion, this bracket has never been at a worse state - feel free to counter any points that i made. do note, i have personally not enjoyed this game for quite some time, as i mentioned in my ban thread - was still playing out of the feeling that my rogue was not entirely “complete” after upgrading it to vet, which probably sounds like the dumbest shit possible, but it was enough to get me hooked on this bracket again for a bit longer. i’ve been burnt out from f2p for ages, and that can be some of the reason for why i haven’t found enjoyment in this bracket, yet i do believe all of the points that i mentioned are reasonable and not entirely related to my personal feelings. lenny's post on here, for example, is another good outlook on the issue - all 3 "factions" in this bracket (f2p, vet, 29s) must be finding enjoyment for the bracket to truly flourish in terms of queue times, and that clearly is not the case at the moment - less people are interested in this bracket than ever before, most likely due to the reasons that i mentioned above.

tl;dr: this'll be my last major post on ti, for obvious reasons, so skip it if you want
 
This is NOT a 20 vs 29 thread. I repeat NOT.
Please continue discussing why think this bracket/game is "garbage". Please give a reason. Come up with something original, thought provoking. And the people that like the bracket/game can state why they do not think it is "garbage".
Please stay on topic.

/cheers
 
blizzard attempts to balance endgame, so any changes that are "unbalanced" in any bracket is simply due to the fact that it server the purpose to endgame

They do a really good job on high level balance i'm told....
 
Guard totally balanced. In fact it needs a huge buff because it could be broken. In theory.
 
All I ever hear from level 20's is that the 20-29 bracket is garbage, trash etc... Yet, no one can come up with any reasons why. Well, here is your chance. For each problem or FACT(not opinion) that you all believe why this bracket is such "garbage" either I or a 20-29 supporter, as opposed to detractor, will react with a positive as why this bracket is not "garbage" or is better than it has been in the past.
Please stay on topic of the GAME and the GAME ONLY. Although spirited discussion is encouraged.
Thank you very much.

/cheers

If your metric for quality is 'we have games happening,' that's the wrong metric to go by. There is a huge difference between quality and quantity, and the only thing that 29s have right now is quantity. This is because quality comes from a combination of things that the 20-29 bracket currently lacks:

1. An organized community.

2. Altruism.

3. Good people.

4. Common goals/interests

5. Empathy.

6. Commitment.

When you queue for games in the 20-29 bracket, there exists a number of variables that prevent those games from being quality games. The queue system is not designed to provide fun, fair, and most importantly, competitive games. It literally sees a bunch of people in queue, and puts them into a game, regardless of their specs, gear, skill levels, game development problems, or role. That's how you can end up with 5 level 29 BM monks on one team, being pocket healed by 2 priests and a paladin, all of which group queued from the same guild, while the other team is a random mix of level 20s of all different classes who have no healers and solo queued.

If you think this is a fun, fair, or balanced environment, you're delusional. At some point, people make concessions about what they're willing to participate in, which is why the 20-29 bracket is active in the first place. People are willing to give up balanced games, fair games, fun games, just to get games at all. This is the wrong approach to twinking. Right now, the 20-29 bracket is no different than any XP on bracket. It's the same level of quality, with the same factors contributing to the lack thereof. The only thing you won't find in XP on games, are people with their XP disabled.

You will, however, find people at all different levels between 20-29, at different stages of gearing, with people who have empty slots/white gear, lacking enchants, and people holding their team back from victory because they decided to queue up for BGs before their toon was finished. It used to be, if you wanted to twink, you built a twink and then queued up for BGs. Sometimes you might find a guy who had a slot or two that weren't BiS, but close to it, or a guy who wasn't updated from the latest patch, or a guy who didn't have an item enchanted.

Those things were rare, but normal. Now, twinking is literally just a shit show of apologists and levelers who think they are doing something cool by contributing to a toxic community.

As someone who's been around through thick and thin, who has survived several major changes and shifts in the game over the last decade, I can honestly tell you that it's not possible for there to be quality in this bracket. Not without people queuing exclusively for wargames and organizing a community that excludes all the F2Ps and level 20s.

That is why this bracket is indeed, trash.
 
I miss spending hours skinning boars around Princess for LW kits and knowing that I was a god because I had +16 armor kits compared to those +8 betas.

boa tab sucks, you heard it here first
 
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lenny, where tf have you been, i need 20k for a game token m8!

but fr, you been away for a bit, what's up? I was told by Roboartist to tell you to respond to his ti message. hey hey :)

Yeah i had no internet haha, and don't worry bout it!
 
Male blood elf paladins with names of Lord of the rings elves missing a huge bunch of gear pieces lower the quality of this bracket.
 

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