Why Premades are better without Screenshots
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Kiwid
OG
I know I am slow to respond, but whatever.
I don't think many of you know me, but I am the GL of RT. If you did know me, then you would also know that I can handle any amount of heat on the forums / vent / in game. Infact, I cause a lot of that heat. For anyone to assume that just because a person doesn't want to post a SS because they are QQers, is flat out ignorant and wrong. That holds absolutely no truth, yet it is the most played card by the "Post SS!"'s players. So my response to that claim is, "U DUM!"
I am in favor of the no SS policy, and here is what I think about it.
Lunar brings up a very interesting point, and I will quote.
"I had a talk with Brumble in fact that I will equate here. I posted a screen randomly of him and Cantoin losing a 2v2 match to me and somebody (dont rembmer exactly who, id have to go back and look) to show my UI. While brumble didnt care that I posted it, he asked why and we talked about how its totally cool to post screens, but that I needed to be aware that he would try just that much harder to beat me in the future so I couldnt post further screens of him losing to me. That is the difference. That little extra effort to avoid losing and to get that feeling of the win is why screens or at least results are important to a lot of people. The competitive edge is there I suppose for GO vs RT, but is it there as much? Hard to say. It might be for you, but what about the other 19 players involved?"
The difference you are talking about, is also the difference between Nightfall and every other BG prior to 3.2. It is the reason why Nightfall was active, and the others were about to die.
For two guilds to consitently fight each other, you have to have some sort of mutual respect. I understand that two guilds can have respect for each other even while posting SS's, but it is few and far between. Not allowing SS's does an amazing thing for respect.
Before I moved to Nightfall, which was over a year before the rest of you wankers jumped on the bandwagon. I played in Ruin's 29's, and 39's. I was in a guild that dabbled into 10v10's on 29's. I remember that we had a rivalry going with a horde guild. Our first 10v10 with them, we won. We gladly posted SS's on the forums, rubbed it in their face, had a good time gloating after all the forum trash talk before the game. What happened on our second game? Well, that day came and we were short one of our healers, so we had people refusing to play because we were sure to lose. Refusing to play? WTF right? Well, guess what. It is because of all the trash talk that happens. It is because of the "Try that much harder to win so it isn't posted on the forums" mentality that Lunar speaks of.
For anyone to assume that just because SS's were not being posted, trash talk was not taking place, that RT and GO didn't "try that much harder" to win is complete BS. The rivalry was still there. The results were still there. The effort to win was still there. The only difference was, we did not care what any other guild, or any other person that frequents the forums wanted to know about our 10v10's. The "pecking order" was still there. The guilds that did 10v10's knew which guild was better then the other. Just because it isn't flaunted on the forums like a badge of honor, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
In closing. I would just like to try and logically explain why no SS's is better then yes SS's.
I am sure most of you all know Falaris. Well, he posted on the forums the other day his 10v10 record. 26-1
Twenty-seven games of flaunting wins. Just twenty-seven games? RT and GO has roughly over 130 games. Each game fiercely competitive as the last. Till this day, we are still doing 10v10's. Infact, it is my main goal to play right now, for the 10v10's.
P.S. Lunar, I feel I need to defend RT from what you said about us. You know (which you didn't say anything about) that our core members did not like you new transfers to the guild. I understand how wrong it was for them to stop playing just because they didn't like you without giving you a chance. Well, for you to say that "RT was not very competitive." is off base and you know it. We had to recreate our core after you guys transfered. Which left me in charge of the guild, and fairly new to running the 10v10's. Till this day, I am still in a learning process. The guild RT before the transfers was completely different then after.
I don't think many of you know me, but I am the GL of RT. If you did know me, then you would also know that I can handle any amount of heat on the forums / vent / in game. Infact, I cause a lot of that heat. For anyone to assume that just because a person doesn't want to post a SS because they are QQers, is flat out ignorant and wrong. That holds absolutely no truth, yet it is the most played card by the "Post SS!"'s players. So my response to that claim is, "U DUM!"
I am in favor of the no SS policy, and here is what I think about it.
Lunar brings up a very interesting point, and I will quote.
"I had a talk with Brumble in fact that I will equate here. I posted a screen randomly of him and Cantoin losing a 2v2 match to me and somebody (dont rembmer exactly who, id have to go back and look) to show my UI. While brumble didnt care that I posted it, he asked why and we talked about how its totally cool to post screens, but that I needed to be aware that he would try just that much harder to beat me in the future so I couldnt post further screens of him losing to me. That is the difference. That little extra effort to avoid losing and to get that feeling of the win is why screens or at least results are important to a lot of people. The competitive edge is there I suppose for GO vs RT, but is it there as much? Hard to say. It might be for you, but what about the other 19 players involved?"
The difference you are talking about, is also the difference between Nightfall and every other BG prior to 3.2. It is the reason why Nightfall was active, and the others were about to die.
For two guilds to consitently fight each other, you have to have some sort of mutual respect. I understand that two guilds can have respect for each other even while posting SS's, but it is few and far between. Not allowing SS's does an amazing thing for respect.
Before I moved to Nightfall, which was over a year before the rest of you wankers jumped on the bandwagon. I played in Ruin's 29's, and 39's. I was in a guild that dabbled into 10v10's on 29's. I remember that we had a rivalry going with a horde guild. Our first 10v10 with them, we won. We gladly posted SS's on the forums, rubbed it in their face, had a good time gloating after all the forum trash talk before the game. What happened on our second game? Well, that day came and we were short one of our healers, so we had people refusing to play because we were sure to lose. Refusing to play? WTF right? Well, guess what. It is because of all the trash talk that happens. It is because of the "Try that much harder to win so it isn't posted on the forums" mentality that Lunar speaks of.
For anyone to assume that just because SS's were not being posted, trash talk was not taking place, that RT and GO didn't "try that much harder" to win is complete BS. The rivalry was still there. The results were still there. The effort to win was still there. The only difference was, we did not care what any other guild, or any other person that frequents the forums wanted to know about our 10v10's. The "pecking order" was still there. The guilds that did 10v10's knew which guild was better then the other. Just because it isn't flaunted on the forums like a badge of honor, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
In closing. I would just like to try and logically explain why no SS's is better then yes SS's.
I am sure most of you all know Falaris. Well, he posted on the forums the other day his 10v10 record. 26-1
Twenty-seven games of flaunting wins. Just twenty-seven games? RT and GO has roughly over 130 games. Each game fiercely competitive as the last. Till this day, we are still doing 10v10's. Infact, it is my main goal to play right now, for the 10v10's.
P.S. Lunar, I feel I need to defend RT from what you said about us. You know (which you didn't say anything about) that our core members did not like you new transfers to the guild. I understand how wrong it was for them to stop playing just because they didn't like you without giving you a chance. Well, for you to say that "RT was not very competitive." is off base and you know it. We had to recreate our core after you guys transfered. Which left me in charge of the guild, and fairly new to running the 10v10's. Till this day, I am still in a learning process. The guild RT before the transfers was completely different then after.
Druiddroid
OG
only a person who is a) bad and b) cares about not being bad will react negatively to screenshots
Outofspace
Sogeking / Deeps
Screenshots are nearly always posted with hidden agendas that have nothing to do with making the score public. I am 100% with what Kiwid said on this other than the fact that I don't really care about SSs, but her example of the rival guilds competing once and then the 2nd game becoming a huge ordeal is pure truth.
Playing 10v10s in with mutual respect in the air is the only way to do them consistently against another guild. That's why I frown so much on NNC and all the other protagonist guilds out there that have their few games in the limelight and then (typically) burn out soon after.
If two guilds agree to a rule who the hell are any of you to judge them when you know nothing of how things operate between them.
Playing 10v10s in with mutual respect in the air is the only way to do them consistently against another guild. That's why I frown so much on NNC and all the other protagonist guilds out there that have their few games in the limelight and then (typically) burn out soon after.
If two guilds agree to a rule who the hell are any of you to judge them when you know nothing of how things operate between them.
Kiwid
OG
Druiddroid said:
Only a person who a) cares so much what other people think and b) needs the self esteem boost will post SS's in a negative manor.
RT played a guild, and dispite the fact we had rules against posting SS's, posted the SS's on the forums. I think even one is in this thread. The other SS posted was a horrible loss. We lost in like 14 minutes or something stupid.
Anyways, people took those SS's and made a flame post. It did reach 26 pages, and a second thread was posted. A lot of the RT members had a blast in those two threads, including myself. I enjoy a good flaming, even if it as my expense.
So yeah, refer back to my original rebuttle to your lame argument.
"U DUM"
Druiddroid
OG
Kiwid said:
a lot of WDWPFT members had a blast too, it was great. i loved that 26 page thread. it was filled with retarded drama and internet logic.
i dunno about you but i LIKE when there's a 26 page thread on the loose that i can look at if c) i have nothing better to do
Kiwid
OG
Druiddroid said:a lot of WDWPFT members had a blast too, it was great. i loved that 26 page thread. it was filled with retarded drama and internet logic.
i dunno about you but i LIKE when there's a 26 page thread on the loose that i can look at if c) i have nothing better to do
That is too bad WDWPFT became inactive before we had our rematch.
Oh well, that is what happens when people talk trash.
Druiddroid
OG
Kiwid said:That is too bad WDWPFT became inactive before we had our rematch.
Oh well, that is what happens when people talk trash.
i would attribute it to NF having worse competition than reckoning cause most people didn't like the pug games at all
Alteffour
OG
You make a large number of assumptions about both NF pre 3.2 and post.
Let me touch on some points.
Where do you get this from?
Post 3.2 yes a number of these other BGs were going to die...this was not the case pre 3.2 like you seem to make it out to be.
You realize that Had a number of Cyclone players decided to go to reckoning and not NF that NF would now be one of the dead or at the very least very near to dying and Reckoning might be the only BG left. We could have easily chosen to go elsewhere, but we were told a bunch of bullshit about Red Text and decided to go to NF believing what you were telling us.
You also make bad assumptions that no screens is the reason NF was active? lol. Give me a break, do you honestly believe that the population of twinks has anything to do with a no screen shot policy that only directly relates to a tiny tiny tiny amount of the actual players in a battle group?
You can have screens and respect at the same time. Its not the screens that does it, it is how the crybabies in the guild that lost react that ruin it. BA and Paincakes played for ages against each other in Cyclone, with no such rule, and would have continued if 3.2 wouldnt have happened. Again your assumption that it is this silly screen shot rule that keeps games going is just that...a bad assumption.
Here again...an assumption...
did you ever think that maybe the players were responsible and not actually the screens? The rules about a screen shot wouldnt matter with such a group of babies. If you have a team with a bunch of bad apples then THAT is the problem..not the screen shot or the forums. If your players cant handle themselves then no amount of rules is going to work out in the long run. Getting a succesful string of games in depends on the players involved and not some silly rule like no screens. If your players cant handle it, then perhaps you have the wrong players.
While Id agree that this would become established over a long period of time, you are forgetting an important issue here.
pre 3.2 NF could probably do what you suggest.
post 3.2 you have a ton of new players from all over the place...they want to know where to go who to play for who to gun for. Keep everything bottled up and you might have xfers trying to join WWD or Hero thinking they are active solid premade guilds still...
Falarass is an exception I guess...that guy admits to fierce trolling and does it all on purpose.
That means that you can QQ about him and get offended by him, or you can ignore him...if you react badly to him, thats your own fault.
Also, just going off the number of games one player plays is silly. Perhaps he just hasnt had 39 twinks as long? Perhaps his guild just didnt want to premade as often? There are probably 1000 other things that could mean one player plays more or less.
There is also the fact that NF always turns back to their quantity over quality argument. While quantity might be more important to you, quality is more important to others. That is a personal preference thing and it is ignorant of you to assume that just because you dont mind bad games so long as they happen doesnt mean others want any part of said bad games (a key point in why I left RT). I might not play premades currently, but im happier for not playing in them with you guys the way we were playing. Hell a good portion of the pugs ive been in are more competitive than the RT vs GO premades I was in.
All of which makes RT not very competitive....you have individual competitive players, but that does not mean that the guild itself is a high level guild currently. You have a new 10v10 leader, running 10s with players with not much 10v10 experience...its like taking a AAA baseball team and having them try to play games in the Majors...you might get a game or two but its not very competitive in the grand scheme of things. The games I experienced there (and granted it might be better now...Toast claims its improoving) were terrible and not competitive or fun. True they were premades, but we might as well have been pugging players. Eventually im sure you guys will get it, its like you are an expansion team, new manager, new players...I get that...itll take a while...but your own excuses are exactly why you arent competitive yet and maybe never will be.
Let me touch on some points.
Where do you get this from?
Post 3.2 yes a number of these other BGs were going to die...this was not the case pre 3.2 like you seem to make it out to be.
You realize that Had a number of Cyclone players decided to go to reckoning and not NF that NF would now be one of the dead or at the very least very near to dying and Reckoning might be the only BG left. We could have easily chosen to go elsewhere, but we were told a bunch of bullshit about Red Text and decided to go to NF believing what you were telling us.
You also make bad assumptions that no screens is the reason NF was active? lol. Give me a break, do you honestly believe that the population of twinks has anything to do with a no screen shot policy that only directly relates to a tiny tiny tiny amount of the actual players in a battle group?
You can have screens and respect at the same time. Its not the screens that does it, it is how the crybabies in the guild that lost react that ruin it. BA and Paincakes played for ages against each other in Cyclone, with no such rule, and would have continued if 3.2 wouldnt have happened. Again your assumption that it is this silly screen shot rule that keeps games going is just that...a bad assumption.
Here again...an assumption...
did you ever think that maybe the players were responsible and not actually the screens? The rules about a screen shot wouldnt matter with such a group of babies. If you have a team with a bunch of bad apples then THAT is the problem..not the screen shot or the forums. If your players cant handle themselves then no amount of rules is going to work out in the long run. Getting a succesful string of games in depends on the players involved and not some silly rule like no screens. If your players cant handle it, then perhaps you have the wrong players.
While Id agree that this would become established over a long period of time, you are forgetting an important issue here.
pre 3.2 NF could probably do what you suggest.
post 3.2 you have a ton of new players from all over the place...they want to know where to go who to play for who to gun for. Keep everything bottled up and you might have xfers trying to join WWD or Hero thinking they are active solid premade guilds still...
Falarass is an exception I guess...that guy admits to fierce trolling and does it all on purpose.
That means that you can QQ about him and get offended by him, or you can ignore him...if you react badly to him, thats your own fault.
Also, just going off the number of games one player plays is silly. Perhaps he just hasnt had 39 twinks as long? Perhaps his guild just didnt want to premade as often? There are probably 1000 other things that could mean one player plays more or less.
There is also the fact that NF always turns back to their quantity over quality argument. While quantity might be more important to you, quality is more important to others. That is a personal preference thing and it is ignorant of you to assume that just because you dont mind bad games so long as they happen doesnt mean others want any part of said bad games (a key point in why I left RT). I might not play premades currently, but im happier for not playing in them with you guys the way we were playing. Hell a good portion of the pugs ive been in are more competitive than the RT vs GO premades I was in.
All of which makes RT not very competitive....you have individual competitive players, but that does not mean that the guild itself is a high level guild currently. You have a new 10v10 leader, running 10s with players with not much 10v10 experience...its like taking a AAA baseball team and having them try to play games in the Majors...you might get a game or two but its not very competitive in the grand scheme of things. The games I experienced there (and granted it might be better now...Toast claims its improoving) were terrible and not competitive or fun. True they were premades, but we might as well have been pugging players. Eventually im sure you guys will get it, its like you are an expansion team, new manager, new players...I get that...itll take a while...but your own excuses are exactly why you arent competitive yet and maybe never will be.
Kiwid
OG
Where did I get that from? Look at the BG's now. When I say "about to die." That means they were not dead yet. 3.2 hit and everyone jumped ship to a larger population. A.K.A. they were about to die.
Wrong. The four most active guilds are native Nightfallers. So even if you wankers stayed in your BG, or went to another BG. We would happily be doing 10v10's, pug WSG's, and arenas without you. Granted, you guys did come, thus making Nightfall the only 39 place.
It's not an assumption. We were doing 10v10's for over a year straight, every single week, prior to everyone coming over. No other BG has that record. The only difference is because of the rules that were in place for 10v10's. That I take as absolute fact that the reason why the other BG's died, and Nightfall did not, is because of the no SS rule. Trust me, and I am sure a lot of other people can tell you this as well, causing hate between two guilds is the downfall of both guilds. Look at the history of 10v10's.
You misunderstood me. Feel free to reread my post and edit this paragraph. I will give you a hint. "I understand that two guilds can have respect for each other even while posting SS's, but it is few and far between. "
Of course it is the players causing it. You assume I think it's a robot causing it? The method in which they cause it, is through SS's and trash talking. /facepalm
Again, you are pulling the "UR QQ'ers U CANT HANDLE SS'S." Refer to my original rebuttle to that. "UR DUM"
Out of that "ton of new players" how many of them 10v10? Those that did 10v10, even if it were just for a couple games before they became inactive, knew the pecking order.
Hero's 10v10's were bashed by native nightfallers, because they were inaccurate. Their numbers were inaccurate. Anyone who visisted NF forums prior to 3.2 knew that.
WWD is an active and solid guild who at this point in time continues to do 10v10's. Your point is moot.
Sorry, but I do neither with Falaris. I do not ignore him, nor do I get offended by him. Him and I have been "forum enemys" for years. We both have a good time trying to get under each others' skin. If you seen some of the conversations between him and I in game, and you would think we were two different people. I will quote Falaris on this one, "People are amazed you and I are cordial to each other."
You continue you mention "QQ" as if I get offended by what people say on the internet. Once again, refer to my original rebuttle. "UR DUM"
I have played against / with Falaris for years. He is all about the 10v10's. So, your point is moot.
I agree with you, some people have different preferences. In my opinion. I would rather try to build a 10v10 guild, then 10v10 as much as possible and cycle in new players as old ones become inactive. I also agree that there has been some games between RT and GO that were just ROFLSTOMPS on both sides. Guess what though. The fact that GO and RT has the utmost respect for each other, doesn't deter us from playing each other, even if that means we are going into a game knowing we will lose. While you were in the guild, I think there were two different 10v10 days I said that in vent. We are about to lose.
What makes a great a great 10v10 guild is not the fact that you can win a lot of battles, it's the fact that you play to win, and don't stop playing if you lose. Take for example the NFL. Only one team is crowned the winner a year. Does that stop the other teams from playing? Hell no.
Oh, and in before you say "NFL shows SS's!" Well guess what. They get paid to show the results of their game. If I was paid to show SS's of the games between GO and RT, I would do it in a heart beat. Otherwise, I don't care what other people think.
You are saying that RT is not in the right state to 10v10 because of new leadership, and new players to 10v10, then compare us to "playing in the major league?" Sounds like we are out matched, and out gunned.
I guess we are going to have to try "that much harder" to win. Excuse me using your logic against you.
P.S. Our core has been recreated. We took a three week break from 10v10's for recruiting and getting to know each other. We are in good shape right now. Infact, we placed an open challenge to any horde guild on Nightfall for 10v10's.
Druiddroid
OG
o look another internet arguement where one person just keeps chain quoting the other and saying they're wrong
Druiddroid
OG
kiwid said:
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Druiddroid
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Phauren said:
0-2 vs wdwpft but gj u now reign supreme over crappy competition