Tweaking our twinks?

[Hashbrowns]

Hey so my mage is almost done and pretty strong now. I went crit heavy but recently I've been looking to substitute some of that for haste/possible int.

Does anyone know of a good way to determine what's best or how much shuffling of stats I should do?

A while ago I looked things like Simulationcraft/Mr.Robot/etc but they don't really work well with a level 20. I thought maybe I could just run my own test on a target dummy but there are no low level target dummies on Horde that I could find. (Alliance used to have those level 1s in Theramore but I think even those are gone now)

 

[hucklberry]

sorry i dont know anny low level target dummys i usualy use a friend to test things out on,

you mage looks awsome one thing i might change though is the cloak as strength has no benifit to mages, replace it with the agili one (if your going for a full crit build) as this gives a little bit more crit and every little helps.

just a shame you missed 5.0 where crit stacked fire mages were so good

 

[Felix]

I had just been tweaking my own twink. I don't know about simulating actual battleground damage and such, but I did try out the item comparison tool on wowhead. I was able to put together a few sets based around getting hit cap different ways and the tool made seeing the stat differences as easy as it can get. Now testing the sets can be done ingame by using recount and dueling a duid with a keyspam for rejuv. #skill .

example of a comparison (hunter):

 

[Hue]

sorry i dont know anny low level target dummys i usualy use a friend to test things out on,

you mage looks awsome one thing i might change though is the cloak as strength has no benifit to mages, replace it with the agili one (if your going for a full crit build) as this gives a little bit more crit and every little helps.

just a shame you missed 5.0 where crit stacked fire mages were so good

i believe they're in thereamore or something like that. its a place mages get a port to, so you should have no problem getting there on a mage in order to test your dps.

 

[Hashbrowns]

Cool thanks all, I'll look into this. Yea dueling a rdruid is probably the best way to test, might be hard to get iterations high enough to actually make a statistical conclusion but eh, it can be done. I've just heard of a mage's Frostbolt critting 800s pve while mine hovers around 560 with this build. So then it becomes “well do I sacrifice my extra 10% crit to get those numbers or not...”

Huck I actually had both but I vendored the agil one lol It only gives melee crit so I made the decision that if I were to swing my staff I'd take the extra damage over a possible chance to crit with it. But I'm on the lookout for the "of the bandit" one again; the stats look nicer lol. And yea, I miss scorch...

Hu I think those are gone. I'm horde anyways so I can't make it there. But I think all that stuff got destroyed during the Fall of Theramore. When are you gonna come check out BWL... Still waiting for those double mages lol

 

[Zatox]

What? There's addons and crap that do this for you? I always just do item swap comparisons in my head.

 

[Goesid]

I use a word pad document

 

[Sabzep]

...
I thought maybe I could just run my own test on a target dummy but there are no low level target dummies on Horde that I could find. (Alliance used to have those level 1s in Theramore but I think even those are gone now)

Wouldn't those level 3 dummies in South Mulgore work? What do you want to test what you can't see in the tooltip? I haven't done this yet, but i guess we could find out how much int is worth one crit.

 

[Franciska]

Wouldn't those level 3 dummies in South Mulgore work? What do you want to test what you can't see in the tooltip? I haven't done this yet, but i guess we could find out how much int is worth one crit.

Don't these dummies usually disappear after their HP is depleted? Its kinda hard to test constant dps that way...

 

[Sabzep]

Don't these dummies usually disappear after their HP is depleted? Its kinda hard to test constant dps that way...

You are right. They do disappear when their ~280HP are killed. So it's only useful to see the damage of a single spell not very much for a damage rotation. But the necessary information to compare sets if you only want to compare one spell is already there in the tool-tips.

I just did a quick comparison on a pre-BoA frost mage (in a BG) in two sets:

crti stacking:
FB: 226,5; crti: 12,26; average damage: 254,3; average with shatter + 3 stacks: 422,6
int/stam stacking:
FB: 265,5; crti: 05,80; average damage: 280,9; average with shatter + 3 stacks: 475,7


Just a quick test that confirms my gut feeling. For Frost crit is not as good as int. I don't know how much that changes with BoAs.

 

[Hashbrowns]

Just a quick test that confirms my gut feeling. For Frost crit is not as good as int. I don't know how much that changes with BoAs.

Whoa thanks for the work Sabzep. It gets kind of tricky with a rotation. I find the Water Elemental crits a lot and things like Touch of the Grave (can it crit?) might throw off any results from a single spell. I think dueling a rdruid might produce the fastest results, it's something I want to do but just don’t really have the time right now.

The original post was looking for something that I could just leave and run 100k iterations with, like a Simulationcraft. But I don't think that exists. Maybe it can be tweaked… I haven’t found a way to change the boss level.

I'll post my findings for the other mages out there and for people that are interested.

[MENTION=8351]Deadvulcano[/MENTION] have you had any experience with crit vs int as Frost?

 

[Deadvulcano]

Unless you can get 25% crit for 100% crit on shatter, crit isn't that valuable for frost in the long run.

However, in pvp a lucky crit can open an window of opportunity for kills. Crits can allow a weaker player to win in the short term.

Personally, I want the fight to go on longer because I assume that my opponent will make more mistakes than I do in the long run. This is why I run int over crit in most cases.

 

[Nickgoodfield]

You are right. They do disappear when their ~280HP are killed. So it's only useful to see the damage of a single spell not very much for a damage rotation. But the necessary information to compare sets if you only want to compare one spell is already there in the tool-tips.

I just did a quick comparison on a pre-BoA frost mage (in a BG) in two sets:

crti stacking:
FB: 226,5; crti: 12,26; average damage: 254,3; average with shatter + 3 stacks: 422,6
int/stam stacking:
FB: 265,5; crti: 05,80; average damage: 280,9; average with shatter + 3 stacks: 475,7


Just a quick test that confirms my gut feeling. For Frost crit is not as good as int. I don't know how much that changes with BoAs.

Really really nice!
I am considering being the underdog (since baldruid is not longer challenging to play...) by making a mage reroll. But I'd like him to be fire, do you know by any chance if crit stacking might be better than int stacking as fire spec? (considering crit means more pyro proc...)

Anyway thanks for the piece of information

 

[sevenslacks7]

Glubtok

I asked about training dummys before and it seemed like all we really have is the crapy 200 health ones in the starting zones.
I think Glubtok is better however, because there is a moment after you kill him where he is still up and you can dps him at 1 health for a few seconds. Its not IDEAL but I like if better then the target dummys.

 

[Franciska]

Glubtok

I asked about training dummys before and it seemed like all we really have is the crapy 200 health ones in the starting zones.
I think Glubtok is better however, because there is a moment after you kill him where he is still up and you can dps him at 1 health for a few seconds. Its not IDEAL but I like if better then the target dummys.

Why not try to dps Ashbury? Its not likely you will die once you have killed all the trash before him and he will cast Stay of Execution after a while anyway to increase your HP. Although you can't dps him during Asphyxiation, so that might a problem.

 

[sevenslacks7]

Why not try to dps Ashbury? Its not likely you will die once you have killed all the trash before him and he will cast Stay of Execution after a while anyway to increase your HP. Although you can't dps him during Asphyxiation, so that might a problem.

Well the reason I say Glubtok is because once he dies he isnt attacking anyone, he is just hovering in mid air for a few seconds absorbing all the damage you can throw at him. Which is also good for warriors by happenstance because he is then in execute range the whole time.

 

[Hashbrowns]

Really really nice!
I am considering being the underdog (since baldruid is not longer challenging to play...) by making a mage reroll. But I'd like him to be fire, do you know by any chance if crit stacking might be better than int stacking as fire spec? (considering crit means more pyro proc...)

Anyway thanks for the piece of information

I can say almost for sure crit>all for fire. Getting that pyro proc is big. That's originally what I was gearing for but with the lack of scorch I went Frost and I've been loving it. Try all specs and keep your crit gear. You'll find fire is really not that viable, even with a full crit set like mine, you scale to around 17% in a bg. Getting 2 crits in a row is tough now that you don't have a fast spammable spell.

Mage is frustrating but stick with it. The staff makes a huge difference, whichever you choose. Focus on your 6% hit in BG. If you want a crit set mine's BiS so feel free to copy that (need Mindthrust and Int Trinket still). If you are going Horde I highly suggest Undead. You can break almost all cc without burning your trinket.

 

[Snowjobs]

see the thing you all are forgetting is that i will pocket a fire mage with out fail but frost i might not pocket.

thus
fire > all

 

[Talarinden]

I just throw items into my regular sets and do battlegrounds, see if I can feel a difference or see a difference in my recount. It's the only real way to get a feel for it in my opinion.

I collected the entire fang set going for satchels that never dropped, decided to grab foreman's to see if expertise soft capping got my rocks off and it did.

Trial and error.

Personally, I want the fight to go on longer because I assume that my opponent will make more mistakes than I do in the long run. This is why I run int over crit in most cases.

I also really value and agree with [MENTION=8351]Deadvulcano[/MENTION] 's opinion on the subject. I tend to be more reliant on primary stats because it gives me the edge of not having to depend on RNG for a relatively higher sustained DPS. I always prioritize Hit Cap > Agility =/= Stamina (Depending on the situation, elaborated below).

If i feel I'm dying a lot I'll switch over to my Stam Set which puts me at around 1700-1800 health, sustaining me long enough for the players who have been wrecking me to goof up.

If I feel it's a quick win, or I'm 7+/0-3 (kb's/d's) I'll throw on my agility set which docks my health to 1300~ but it gives me roughly a 15-20% damage boost and expertise soft caps me which increases my DPS by 4%.

What can I say, I'm a hunter, I'll just be honest --big numbers are pretty.