TLA Best wep for rets in 3.2?
- Thread starter Talic
- Start date
Druiddroid
OG
Vallei said:
he's saying TLA will be better in some situations, but CM is overall the better weapon if you can only afford one.
NickeQuick
OG
This is the case for TLA
1 Interrupts spells with faster swings.
2 Paladins have no instant attacks.
3 Over time more damage is given.
4 Burst lowered in 3.2 makes DPS more important than burst.
5 Opponents health will be higher in 3.2.
6 A lot of fights in 3.2 will not have healers.
7 Nobody dies until the healers OOM.
This is why these are wrong
1 Hopefully a good twinkx in 3.2 that is casting spells will get away from a lolret before the second or first swing for that matter. If you are fighting in a style where your target remains in one place and cast they are terrible.
2 Paladins have no instant melee attacks, but there are instant spells that cause damage.
3 This is what really is getting to me. DPS on weapons is awesome for PvE where you can stand in front of your target and it doesn't move, but in PvP burst is better because you have to get as much damage as possible in a short amount of time. Casters don't stand in one place during PvP believe it or not; this of course is known as kiting. If you are running with all twinkx like in 3.2 hopefully they are coordinated enough to know to all attack the same target. Higher burst on one target means that the target dies faster.
4 With the re addition of exorcism in 3.2 burst for lolret should not be lowered by so much that it changes the class entirely.
5 Hopefully in 3.1 you have been going after twinkx and not puggers. The health pools of those you are fighting should be exactly the same as before actually.
6 I couldn't possibly imagine a 3.2 with only twinkx v twinkx having situations where there are no healers involved. Especially with the addition of mounts to level 20 making travel to battles so much faster than before. If you are in a group with no healers on your side you are going to lose plain and simple.
7 Everybody that plays 29 knows that there are more huntards with aimed shot than any other class in the bracket. Aimed shot of course is the huntard spell that reduces healing effects by 50%. If you think a healer can out heal aimed shot while being burst on by a group of twinkx then I don't know what to tell you.
1 Interrupts spells with faster swings.
2 Paladins have no instant attacks.
3 Over time more damage is given.
4 Burst lowered in 3.2 makes DPS more important than burst.
5 Opponents health will be higher in 3.2.
6 A lot of fights in 3.2 will not have healers.
7 Nobody dies until the healers OOM.
This is why these are wrong
1 Hopefully a good twinkx in 3.2 that is casting spells will get away from a lolret before the second or first swing for that matter. If you are fighting in a style where your target remains in one place and cast they are terrible.
2 Paladins have no instant melee attacks, but there are instant spells that cause damage.
3 This is what really is getting to me. DPS on weapons is awesome for PvE where you can stand in front of your target and it doesn't move, but in PvP burst is better because you have to get as much damage as possible in a short amount of time. Casters don't stand in one place during PvP believe it or not; this of course is known as kiting. If you are running with all twinkx like in 3.2 hopefully they are coordinated enough to know to all attack the same target. Higher burst on one target means that the target dies faster.
4 With the re addition of exorcism in 3.2 burst for lolret should not be lowered by so much that it changes the class entirely.
5 Hopefully in 3.1 you have been going after twinkx and not puggers. The health pools of those you are fighting should be exactly the same as before actually.
6 I couldn't possibly imagine a 3.2 with only twinkx v twinkx having situations where there are no healers involved. Especially with the addition of mounts to level 20 making travel to battles so much faster than before. If you are in a group with no healers on your side you are going to lose plain and simple.
7 Everybody that plays 29 knows that there are more huntards with aimed shot than any other class in the bracket. Aimed shot of course is the huntard spell that reduces healing effects by 50%. If you think a healer can out heal aimed shot while being burst on by a group of twinkx then I don't know what to tell you.
Vallei
OG
Alright.
WHITE HITS AND SOC
TLA stats. with kings.
21.80 crit,
449 ap.
11 hit rating
2.70 speed.
156-193 damage on the tooltip
64.7 dps
Average actual hit. 120 average soc hit 58 (high hit I managed with soc was 69, and 132 with white swing) 6 swings to do 1000 damage (16.1 seconds without crits.) 1000 / 16.2 = 61.7 DPS
Average crit was 250, and 130 soc crit
Corpsemaker stats with kings
21.80 crit
443 ap
11 hit
208-253 top end
60.6 dps
average hit 170 average soc 82 (average crit 340 average soc crit 160) , 4 swings to do 1000 damage. (15.2 seconds of auto swings to do 1000 damage without crits) 1000 / 15.2 = 65.78 DPS without crits.
I don't know the equation to calculate the 21.80 percent crit into the above figures, and of course the amount of swings to do 1000 damage isn't 100 percent accurate as 6 swings with tla worked out to be 1068 damage on average, and 4 swings of CM worked out to 1008 damage on average, but we can assume they are very similar in DPS with just non crit white swings.
JUDGEMENTS. (Edit:note, later in thread I list the armory of the toon I used for these tests, and it has glyph of judgement on, my ptr toon does not use glyph of judgement.)
CM averaged 80 and average crit for 155.
TLA averaged 65 and crit for 133 average.
65.78 plus 10 dps from judgements puts the CM at 75.78 DPS
61.7 plus 8.1 dps from judgements puts the TLA at 69.71 DPS
EXORCISM
The tooltip and hits of my exorcism literally didn't change between the two weapons. However I wanted to include this section to remind you all of the fact that if are casting when your white swing should have went off, you will reset your swing timer (known as 'clipping' your swing) , 1.5 sec plus 1 sec of pushback means that in order to not clip your white swing you will have to start your exorcism a maximum of 0.2 secs after your previous white swing. I guess i'm not skilled enough to do that every single time and 9 times out of ten during my testing I clipped my swing with tla resulting in a dps loss that CM was not subject to as it is so much slower. (able to start casting exorcism a max of 1.3 secs after my previous autoswing)
Conclusion. from my testing I have shown that if you are an exceptionally skilled player and you don't clip a single white hit with TLA, you will be doing subpar dps if none of your abilities can crit in comparison to CM. If judgements can crit and exorcism can crit, the dps gap between TLA and CM widens, putting cm even further ahead.
As for if white/socs can crit, I don't know the math to calculate that, but I can assume that CM will do the same or better dps then TLA. This is straight dps test where I am on my target 100 percent of the time (never happens, thus tipping the scales further in CMs favour) that doesn't factor in the usefulness of CMs burst or Crusader proc superiority (tests were done without crusader) which gives more burst and more heals.
Tests were done on a rogue with 1.1kish armour ([char=Skywall]Pedr%C3%B8[/char]) With my paladin (The World of Warcraft Armory) please note that it's current armory doesn't have boa shoulders and my spec is -2 percent crit on the ptr, and I had to drop 300 skinning on the ptr , apart from that it's the same set I used on the ptr for these tests.
Final thoughts, TLA is a piece of trash, and should never be used. ever. literally it's only 'advantage' is more pushback on 3 sec cast spells, (Still only one swing on 1.5 and 2.5 sec spells) , for which you give up, burst, dps, crusader procs, 10 hp. (tla has 7 stam, cm has 8), this weapon will never ever be better then cm no matter what you're doing. Please, use a cm and forget this pos wep, you'll thank me.
Note: some of the spelling and grammar in this post may be incorrect. I don't give a shit, too lazy to go back and edit
WHITE HITS AND SOC
TLA stats. with kings.
21.80 crit,
449 ap.
11 hit rating
2.70 speed.
156-193 damage on the tooltip
64.7 dps
Average actual hit. 120 average soc hit 58 (high hit I managed with soc was 69, and 132 with white swing) 6 swings to do 1000 damage (16.1 seconds without crits.) 1000 / 16.2 = 61.7 DPS
Average crit was 250, and 130 soc crit
Corpsemaker stats with kings
21.80 crit
443 ap
11 hit
208-253 top end
60.6 dps
average hit 170 average soc 82 (average crit 340 average soc crit 160) , 4 swings to do 1000 damage. (15.2 seconds of auto swings to do 1000 damage without crits) 1000 / 15.2 = 65.78 DPS without crits.
I don't know the equation to calculate the 21.80 percent crit into the above figures, and of course the amount of swings to do 1000 damage isn't 100 percent accurate as 6 swings with tla worked out to be 1068 damage on average, and 4 swings of CM worked out to 1008 damage on average, but we can assume they are very similar in DPS with just non crit white swings.
JUDGEMENTS. (Edit:note, later in thread I list the armory of the toon I used for these tests, and it has glyph of judgement on, my ptr toon does not use glyph of judgement.)
CM averaged 80 and average crit for 155.
TLA averaged 65 and crit for 133 average.
65.78 plus 10 dps from judgements puts the CM at 75.78 DPS
61.7 plus 8.1 dps from judgements puts the TLA at 69.71 DPS
EXORCISM
The tooltip and hits of my exorcism literally didn't change between the two weapons. However I wanted to include this section to remind you all of the fact that if are casting when your white swing should have went off, you will reset your swing timer (known as 'clipping' your swing) , 1.5 sec plus 1 sec of pushback means that in order to not clip your white swing you will have to start your exorcism a maximum of 0.2 secs after your previous white swing. I guess i'm not skilled enough to do that every single time and 9 times out of ten during my testing I clipped my swing with tla resulting in a dps loss that CM was not subject to as it is so much slower. (able to start casting exorcism a max of 1.3 secs after my previous autoswing)
Conclusion. from my testing I have shown that if you are an exceptionally skilled player and you don't clip a single white hit with TLA, you will be doing subpar dps if none of your abilities can crit in comparison to CM. If judgements can crit and exorcism can crit, the dps gap between TLA and CM widens, putting cm even further ahead.
As for if white/socs can crit, I don't know the math to calculate that, but I can assume that CM will do the same or better dps then TLA. This is straight dps test where I am on my target 100 percent of the time (never happens, thus tipping the scales further in CMs favour) that doesn't factor in the usefulness of CMs burst or Crusader proc superiority (tests were done without crusader) which gives more burst and more heals.
Tests were done on a rogue with 1.1kish armour ([char=Skywall]Pedr%C3%B8[/char]) With my paladin (The World of Warcraft Armory) please note that it's current armory doesn't have boa shoulders and my spec is -2 percent crit on the ptr, and I had to drop 300 skinning on the ptr , apart from that it's the same set I used on the ptr for these tests.
Final thoughts, TLA is a piece of trash, and should never be used. ever. literally it's only 'advantage' is more pushback on 3 sec cast spells, (Still only one swing on 1.5 and 2.5 sec spells) , for which you give up, burst, dps, crusader procs, 10 hp. (tla has 7 stam, cm has 8), this weapon will never ever be better then cm no matter what you're doing. Please, use a cm and forget this pos wep, you'll thank me.
Note: some of the spelling and grammar in this post may be incorrect. I don't give a shit, too lazy to go back and edit
twentynine
Guest
darzk said:
You dont actually play in organized 10v10's do you? I'd be suprised if you honestly play in this bracket at all. Healers going oom in arenas? Maybe in a healer v healer 1v1. If either team has a hunter/pally, it's a guarantee the healer isnt going oom. Have you ever actually tried to heal through aimed shot? I have, its not possible.
You're actually giving an honest argument that you think burst isnt always > sustained in PvP. This leads me to believe that you either do a lot of PvE and think the same rules translate, or you are just trolling us, because anyone who has played enough PvP knows the official rule of doing dmg in PvP is Burst > Sustained. It's not even really up for discussion, and you're discussing it.
For gods sake, you did your math assuming you'd constantly be on someone for 15 full secs. Have you ever played a melee class ever? You get 1 swing in usually, occasionally 2. You run up and hit them, they disengage. You run up and hit them, they blink. You run up and hit them, then you get cc'd. That's what happens in PvP. Not "lawlz tahnk gawd dis guiy iz standen stillz soz dat iz kan hitz himz ovah n ovah!!!11eleven"
There are absolutely no situations that tla > cm. None. Stop trying to find a way for the math to work out so you dont look stupid. It's too late. If I were you, I'd prob delete all my posts about this. People on the bg forums are already making fun of you. (not even joking)
NickeQuick
OG
There was a troll thread created on reckoning forums about this like twentynine said. You should check it out because it made me laugh.
darzk
OG
NickeQuick said:
Cool, I'll look it up.
Sorry if discussing this is pissing you guys off. It really is quite entertaining, and the information is useful. Why sould burst be inportant when 1v1ing other melees? 2v2 arenas, or even 3v3s with 2 healers, unless your healer can CC or they fuck up I usually see fights end up as mana wars. "In fact, in arenas in my experience", I quote. It's cetainly possible in your battlegroup you have a lot of heavy dps teams, hence why weapon choice is a personal decision. Why couldn't you stick to a target for the duration of Freedom? Sure, theres CC's Freedom wont help against, and I've already stated many times that kiting fights are best geared for witha slower weapon.
I'm curious, Vallei, as to how many swings you averaged your data from. You admit yourself that your tooltip DPS is higher on your character screen with TLA, and then somehow your actual numbers support a higher DPS from CM than TLA. I hate to 'accuse' you of anything, but I see no logical reason why this should be so.
I'm curious as to the large difference in the judgement damage on the PTR. I dont know the actual formula 3.2 uses, but on live the difference I see between CM and TLA is closer to 8-10 dmg less for TLA. A 15 dmg difference (pre crit) seems to be rather high - perhaps they increased the weapon damage coefficient? If so, I would concede another advantage to CM
I gotta say, I love these discussions, and I really dislike that theres a 'stigma' against having them.
I will reiterate this: I certainly believe there are many situations where CM is going to be better than TLA. If you have only one weapon, by all means it should be a CM (assuming you dont have an 80 for BaR). However, for the min/maxer like myself having second-best isnt good enough. There *ARE* situations which are not Burst Fests. There *ARE* situations where you need to pressure healers though dps outputs and not burst in order to OOM them. There *ARE* situations where the opponents wont have healers. There *ARE* situations where the opponent isnt going to try to kite you. Hence, the perfectionist is going to have a TLA in thier bags for these situations. They may not be common, but by god they do exist. If you can for sure say that you've never been in one, you need to open your eyes to other ways to look at the PvP situation you're in.
Vallei
OG
darzk said:Cool, I'll look it up.
Sorry if discussing this is pissing you guys off. It really is quite entertaining, and the information is useful. Why sould burst be inportant when 1v1ing other melees? 2v2 arenas, or even 3v3s with 2 healers, unless your healer can CC or they fuck up I usually see fights end up as mana wars. "In fact, in arenas in my experience", I quote. It's cetainly possible in your battlegroup you have a lot of heavy dps teams, hence why weapon choice is a personal decision. Why couldn't you stick to a target for the duration of Freedom? Sure, theres CC's Freedom wont help against, and I've already stated many times that kiting fights are best geared for witha slower weapon.
I'm curious, Vallei, as to how many swings you averaged your data from. You admit yourself that your tooltip DPS is higher on your character screen with TLA, and then somehow your actual numbers support a higher DPS from CM than TLA. I hate to 'accuse' you of anything, but I see no logical reason why this should be so.
I'm curious as to the large difference in the judgement damage on the PTR. I dont know the actual formula 3.2 uses, but on live the difference I see between CM and TLA is closer to 8-10 dmg less for TLA. A 15 dmg difference (pre crit) seems to be rather high - perhaps they increased the weapon damage coefficient? If so, I would concede another advantage to CM
I gotta say, I love these discussions, and I really dislike that theres a 'stigma' against having them.
I will reiterate this: I certainly believe there are many situations where CM is going to be better than TLA. If you have only one weapon, by all means it should be a CM (assuming you dont have an 80 for BaR). However, for the min/maxer like myself having second-best isnt good enough. There *ARE* situations which are not Burst Fests. There *ARE* situations where you need to pressure healers though dps outputs and not burst in order to OOM them. There *ARE* situations where the opponents wont have healers. There *ARE* situations where the opponent isnt going to try to kite you. Hence, the perfectionist is going to have a TLA in thier bags for these situations. They may not be common, but by god they do exist. If you can for sure say that you've never been in one, you need to open your eyes to other ways to look at the PvP situation you're in.
I averaged my swings from 10 swings for each wep, and 5 for each judgement, because they were remaining very consistent I didn't feel the need to do another 5 judgements to get my average.
The tooltip dps was like 4 dps higher, two of which was made up alone in judgements. As I said in my post I didn't bother with doing like 5.8 or whatever swings with TLA to get an even 1000 damage, but I instead rounded to 6 swings with the TLA which yielded 1068 damage on average , and 4 swings of CM which gave 1008 damage on average, so the dps disparity may be made up if one were to get an exact calculation of how many swing (to a decimal) it took to get 1000 damage.
or perhaps it's just a conversion with the SoC effect that favours slower weapons.
However, I am confident that considering the 2 dps from judgements alone, if one were to make the exact calcs then I suspect CM and TLA would be within 1 to 2 dps of eachother, not sure which it would favour.
I also added in my post, that TLA suffers a huge dps loss that CM simply does not, and that is clipping.
A TLA has 6 swings in a 16.2 rotation, and two judgements. 6x 178 = 1068, two judgements of 65 = 130, my exo does aproxx 350, so total is 1548, if you are a perfect player without mind numbing on you and you receive the 1 sec extra pushback, you can do this rotation, and get it off because you can start casting exorcism 0.2 secs after your autoswing, thus getting that last autoswing to land. Total dps including exo 95.5555555 repeating of course . However, 9 times out of ten due to clipping you won't get your last auto swing, so 1548 - 178 = 1370. which = 84.567 dps.
Now, A CM has 4.23 swings in 16 secs. and is simply not subject to clipping at all due to the fact that you can most certainly get a 2.5 sec cast in between a 3.8 swing timer with ease. So you get 1067 damage from white swings and SoC effect , Two judgements, for 164 damage, and 350 exorcism.
1067 + 164 + 350 = 1581 / 16 = 98.8125 dps, since there is no risk at all of clipping with CM unless you're straight fucking terrible and cast it like 0.5 secs before cm is about to swing again, it is pretty clear that if there are slight disparities in my math from my previous post, the clipping with TLA widens the gap further then my math could possible me incorrect.
I mean, come on. 98.8125 dps versus 95.55555 if you're PERFECT and don't have mind numbing on you at all, (this is assuming you'll be hit, and getting pushback, which you will, nine times out of ten. ) then CM is still more dps, add in clipping and you're comparing 98.8145 dps to 84.567 dps.
For thermaplugs left arm to be better dps in 9 out of ten pvp situations(in dps, not overall usefulness), my math would have to be wrong by 14.2455 dps, is my math off by that much? Seriously doubt it.
For thermaplugs left arm to be better in 1 out of ten pvp situations(in dps, not overall usefulness), my math would have to be off by 3.2575 dps, is my math off by that much? perhaps. Although I doubt it. and even if it was, why would you give up the burst, the ease of play, 10 hp, more crusader procs and thus their heals, for max 1 measly dps. 16 damage over 16 secs.
Which brings us back to......
Edit: Just so we're clear, a min/maxer like yourself should use CM. Every time, for every situation, all the time. Never, ever, ever, ever, use TLA
Edit2: If you're still going to try and dispute my evidence and tests and math, please come back with something other than insulting the integrity of my tests and goin' with the 'I still think it's better dps and is better then cm is some situations' , as my tests indisputably show, it's not. it's just not. And until you find/make a 29 ret pally with gear that hits the butter zone for TLA so much so that it overcomes the 15ish dps disparity when you include clipping, and beyond that raises dps so much that it's worth dropping the burst cm brings to the table among other things, just stop talking about it.
darzk
OG
Realize, that making it easier to fit in Exo between swings also makes it easier for opponents to fit in casts between *your* swings!
I'm still kinda confused to where CM is getting *more* dps than TLA, even before counting in judgement damage. But, eh, thats what you're numbers say. I'll concede the point... for now.
When 3.2 hits live, if theres still the discrepancy (on my toon), I'll talk to a GM about it. Maybe if I get my PC put back together before then I'll get on the PTR to test it out.
Sorry, as I said, not trying to insult your integrity. I was just stating that it doesnt make any sense to me, and was wondering if anyone could point out something I missed. Doesnt make any sense for a weapon with higher dps to do less dps.
I'm still kinda confused to where CM is getting *more* dps than TLA, even before counting in judgement damage. But, eh, thats what you're numbers say. I'll concede the point... for now.
When 3.2 hits live, if theres still the discrepancy (on my toon), I'll talk to a GM about it. Maybe if I get my PC put back together before then I'll get on the PTR to test it out.
Sorry, as I said, not trying to insult your integrity. I was just stating that it doesnt make any sense to me, and was wondering if anyone could point out something I missed. Doesnt make any sense for a weapon with higher dps to do less dps.
Vallei
OG
darzk said:
I'm guessing it's just because the SoC mechanic favours slower weps, and then there is the judgements. Besides, it's not like it matters, according to my numbers cm is like 3 dps more, that's nothing. it's the white swing clipping and lack of burst that makes TLA completely terrible really :\, I didn't even think about it until I had actually tested it.
TwinkorDie
OG
corpsemaker is better can you people please get over it. faster weapons have never been better in pvp in wow and never will be. please remember this so these forums are never plagued by this filth again.