TLA Best wep for rets in 3.2?

[Talic]

holy shit, you people are so ridiculously retarded.



the guy who wrote the wall of text needs to just delete all his characters and quit the game. i can't believe people still don't have this shit figured out after this game has been out for like 6 years.



stop.



posting.



about.



TLA.



being better than.



corpsemaker.



it's not. the verdict has been out. it's been out for years. it's virtually unanimous, save for the random retards like this guy.



just stop. posting. about it.

for almost like 6 years command was a ppm

this is no longer the case



how



hard



is to



understand



that?



Now can you post a valid argument about how CM will be better than TLA in all cases?



As for Burst > Sustained dps

Burst will no longer come from command. Exorcims will be our burst attack

 

[Rottentomato]

It's a lost cause. All the players who aren't retarded will be using CM/BAR while people like this guy will be using TLA. Just use CM/BAR and save yourself the embarrassment.

 

[Drayner]

If the dude is wrong, discuss it. Show why he's wrong. If then, he still doesn't see the light, move along. You tried and you can agree to disagree.

 

[oknob]

funny all the people in this thread just spewing the same comments other kids are making "blah blah CM is best" "blah blah you suck cus its not top dmg" "blah blah faster weapons are useless"



no one has yet to prove anything based on 3.2 notes that CM/BAR will be better than TLA, you're all just saying thats how it was the whole time. well like people have said, things change, pally burst will not be SoC dmg anymore.

 

[Neratho]

You can't come here and say 'Burst is #1, burst has always been most important'

Try to argue why burst is > DPS when it comes to, for example, fighting a warrior 1v1 as a 29 Ret Paladin when 3.2 hits. Just tell me.

 

[Neratho]

Double posted, sorry.

 

[Screamforme]

NO. just NO. burst has ALWAYS been the ONLY thing that matters in pvp when it comes to doing damage. THE. ONLY. THING.



burst is NOT being lowered next patch for ret paladins at 29. what in the diddly are you talking about? have you been on the PTR on your 29 ret pally....? let me answer the question for you: you haven't, or else you wouldn't be posting this garbage. good riddance.



"lessening in the importance of burst because you will be fighting other twinks with larger health pools"....???????? here's where i know you're trolling for sure, because this statement is stupider than trying to breathe underwater. why the diddly do you think burst is so important in the first place....? that's right, because you need the unpredictable burst damage to be able to take down players' larger health pools. jeeeesus, welcome to 1st-grade level logical reasoning.



good lord, where are you even coming up with this complete and utter bullshit???? you have to be trolling. every single thing you have posted has been completely 100% wrong - that spells T-R-O-L-L to me.



edit: reporting your post for trolling because everything you say is so damn stupid and counterproductive.

Has nothing to do with what is going on here in the actual discussion, but I am just curious as to why you are such a jerk?



Seriously--why can't you back up your claims, instead of name calling? Are you 6?

 

[Rottentomato]

Has anyone besides me even played a 29 pally on the ptr?

 

[NickeQuick]

Sad truth is that Rotten is probably the only one that has played a 29 paladin on PTR. If you aren't willing to listen to somebody that has a 29 paladin on PTR who knows a lot about the 29 bracket and knows exactly what he is talking about it just shows you don't want to hear anything besides what you are saying.



Wanted to add some more behind Rotten's credentials. Officer in top reckoning battlegroup 29 horde guild, has made multiple 29s, and his lolret has BiS in all slots. I could go on but if you still will not listen to at least Rotten then there is no point of continuing this discussion.

 

[Vallei]

See, this is my whole point. This isn't true, and has never been true. Certainly there are situations where burst is the primary factor, and certainly Paladins have some pretty good burst potential. However, with burst being lowered YET AGAIN with this next patch, DPS becomes more and more beneficial over burst. For certain fights.



And, again, the next patch will see a lessening in the importance of burst because you will ONLY be fighting other twinks, so the average health pool of your opponents will be increasing.

LOL you cannot be serious, I burst for upwards of 1k damage in my burst rotation if even ONE thing crits. EVERY 15 SECONDS. WITHOUT CRUSADER UP.



Burst for ret pallies has NOT been lowered.

 

[Vallei]

Sad truth is that Rotten is probably the only one that has played a 29 paladin on PTR. If you aren't willing to listen to somebody that has a 29 paladin on PTR who knows a lot about the 29 bracket and knows exactly what he is talking about it just shows you don't want to hear anything besides what you are saying.

I've played my ret on the ptr. Trying to get a thermaplugs arm so I can show with hard evidence that CM/BAR are vastly better than TLA.

 

[twentynine]

Are people really arguing that burst will somehow not be as important as sustained dps in pvp now?



Is that really what's happening here?



Blizz isnt changing the way PvP works, they're changing the way SoC works. Burst has always, and will always be better than sustained dps in pvp for every single class in wow, for the rest of wow existence. In fact I'd say that's true for any game ever that has some sort of "healers" or a healing mechanic. Sustained dps is very easy to heal through for anyone who has ever played a healer ever, and has at least some working fingers. If you get 2-3 people with good burst to hit someone at the same time, there's basically nothing a healer can do (especially with lolaimedshot) That's not even mentioning the fact that if you're playing against people who are good (aka the next patch) you will need to do your damage quickly before they either get off their own burst, or start to kite you (negating your loldps)



Larger health pools makes burst even more crucial, because it's literally the only way to kill someone before they get heals.



I hope I cleared this up for you guys.

 

[Neratho]

There's enough scenarios where no healers are involved. Did you realize your nice CM won't be BiS against certain classes then?

 

[twentynine]

There's enough scenarios where no healers are involved. Did you realize your nice CM won't be BiS against certain classes then?

No, it still will be because every other class can burst back, or start to kite you.



Not that anyone plays them, because they're so underpowered, but lets take hunters for example. You hoj the hunter, exo, and then run up to them and smack em once with your tla. They get out of the hoj, trap, disengage. Now they're 30 yards away from you, and maybe conc shotted you. Depending on which trap, you either trinket, or BoF at this point, and if they're a good hunter they kite you around. If they're decent, you maybe get in 1 hit after your bof wore off, and they wing clip and get away again.



If it was a mage, they would fn blink. If it was a lock, they'd seduce/fear. If its a priest, they fearbomb, shams earthbind/fs. Every class has something that can get them away from you (kite), or burst you down before you burst them down. Especially if you dont have any heals, you better have the best burst, or you're going to get bursted down before they do.



Since you're only getting in 1, possibly hits in at a time in real pvp. You need those hits to pack a punch, or they're going to be useless. Thats why burst will always be better than sustained dps.

 

[darzk]

LOL you cannot be serious, I burst for upwards of 1k damage in my burst rotation if even ONE thing crits. EVERY 15 SECONDS. WITHOUT CRUSADER UP.



Burst for ret pallies has NOT been lowered.

I assume you mean on the PTR, and with the use of Excorcism. Ex will hit for more when using a TLA, btw.



In a 15 second rotation: (your time limit mentions)



2 Judgements

3.9 (basically 4) CM swings

5.5 TLA swings



With 0 attack power with the CM and 6 ap with the TLA:



CM does 429 damage from swings, +36% SoC dmg = 583.44 dmg

TLA does 486 dmg from swings, +36% SoC dmg = 661.45 dmg



Judgements with CM will hit a little bit harder (average of 8 more on live). Not sure what the new formula for Judgements are, but the difference between the two is smaller. Still, lets give CM +8 dmg per judgement.



In 15 Seconds a pally with no AP will do ~600 dmg with CM (+crit, +ap factor, +actualy base judgement dmg) and will do ~660 dmg with TLA.



Thats 10% more damage with TLA.



If you want to truncate that, assume they die in exactly 15 seconds (who does?): CM=464.8 dmg (3 swings+16 from 2 judgements), TLA = 601 dmg - thats almost 30% damage increase over CM, because you didnt get that fourth swing off.

 

[darzk]

Are people really arguing that burst will somehow not be as important as sustained dps in pvp now?



Is that really what's happening here?



Blizz isnt changing the way PvP works, they're changing the way SoC works. Burst has always, and will always be better than sustained dps in pvp for every single class in wow, for the rest of wow existence. In fact I'd say that's true for any game ever that has some sort of "healers" or a healing mechanic. Sustained dps is very easy to heal through for anyone who has ever played a healer ever, and has at least some working fingers. If you get 2-3 people with good burst to hit someone at the same time, there's basically nothing a healer can do (especially with lolaimedshot) That's not even mentioning the fact that if you're playing against people who are good (aka the next patch) you will need to do your damage quickly before they either get off their own burst, or start to kite you (negating your loldps)



Larger health pools makes burst even more crucial, because it's literally the only way to kill someone before they get heals.



I hope I cleared this up for you guys.

Naw, just that there are situations in which burst is less important. Theres lots of fights without healers - and lots of fights where noone dies until the healer OOMs. In fact, in arenas in my experience, almost never will it end before one or more of the healers are OOM.



Theres no way you can burst through someones health pool before they get heals, CM or not. True, if youve got CC on thier healer and you're all focusing one person he'll die. But thats exactly the situation in which CM is better. I'm not arguing that TLA is always better than CM, just saying that theres lots of instances in which DPS is more important than burst.



And so far the only counter-arguement we've seen is "Its always been better, even tho no one has proven it, and everyone agrees with me, so the math doesnt matter.".

 

[Vallei]

Naw, just that there are situations in which burst is less important. Theres lots of fights without healers - and lots of fights where noone dies until the healer OOMs. In fact, in arenas in my experience, almost never will it end before one or more of the healers are OOM.



Theres no way you can burst through someones health pool before they get heals, CM or not. True, if youve got CC on thier healer and you're all focusing one person he'll die. But thats exactly the situation in which CM is better. I'm not arguing that TLA is always better than CM, just saying that theres lots of instances in which DPS is more important than burst.



And so far the only counter-arguement we've seen is "Its always been better, even tho no one has proven it, and everyone agrees with me, so the math doesnt matter.".

No, my good sir. I burst 1k IN ONE SECOND, not over 15 seconds. the time frame I listed is because exorcism has a 15 second cooldown, the damage in between means nothing. it's just there to finish somebody if they're low /keep pressure of healers until exorcism is off cooldown, I then use my lawl1kburst rotation once again. The sustained means nothing. absolutely nothing.



Also, I play with a rogue, a warrior, and a pally typically as my partner on live in 2s(with me on my hunter) , and I can say without a doubt that healers do NOT need to be oom in arenas, or even cc'd, for things to die. This will hold true even moreso when pallies are more burst oriented in 3.2 and can do upwards of 1k and beyond in a single rotation that has a 15 sec CD. (This little mini argument you 'arenas never end till atleast one healer is oom' argument.)





Also, the fact that CM is slower DOES mean more Crusader procs, as judgement is considered a melee attack, (atleast now it is, for sure) I have my battle text addon tell me many times that I have gotten two crusader heals instantly. the only way for this to happen is for crusader to have procced off an auto swing, and a judgement, at the same time.



When I finally get my thermaplugs left arm to actually test everything, I will be using my un-enchanted corpsemaker, and an un-enchanted TLA, as I don't have money on my ptr ret pally and my BAR has crusader. so even when the tests show that cm is better then tla, you can assume it is even a bigger gap then the tests show when crusader is factored in.

 

[darzk]

Also, the fact that CM is slower DOES mean more Crusader procs, as judgement is considered a melee attack, (atleast now it is, for sure) I have my battle text addon tell me many times that I have gotten two crusader heals instantly. the only way for this to happen is for crusader to have procced off an auto swing, and a judgement, at the same time.

Likely the double proc occurred from a SoC proc, But I digress.



Certainly, with judgements being changed in 3.2 (just read that right before this post, lol) to physical attacks, we will see a slight rise in Crusader Procs.



2% extra chance to proc Cru each Judgement - ~0.1 ppm increase in crusader procs. Works out to 2.5-3.5 extra strength on average - hey, the difference in the weapons' stats!



Just about any healer should be able to outheal one class's dps, even when thats a hunter with aimed shot. If you're doing BGs/Arenas with a DPS heavy setup, then for sure you'd want a CM...



Sigh. Put it this way. Two identical pallies, identical skills, identical gear. Ones got a CM, the other a TLA. Both have >1500 hp, so neither is going to die in the initial stun. Who do you think will win? The one with more burst, or the one who does more damage?



Lets say you decide to stick on that priest healer. However, theres a pally (for example) healing as well. You're never going to do enough burst to kill the priest while the pally is healing (classes here dont really matter.) If the priests are dumb enough to let themselves get low on hp, *then* burst will matter - but theyre only going to let themselves get low if thier teammates are also in dire need of heals, and thats only going to happen when the incoming DPS (not burst) is higher than thier healing output.

 

[Vallei]

Likely the double proc occurred from a SoC proc, But I digress.



Certainly, with judgements being changed in 3.2 (just read that right before this post, lol) to physical attacks, we will see a slight rise in Crusader Procs.



2% extra chance to proc Cru each Judgement - ~0.1 ppm increase in crusader procs. Works out to 2.5-3.5 extra strength on average - hey, the difference in the weapons' stats!



Just about any healer should be able to outheal one class's dps, even when thats a hunter with aimed shot. If you're doing BGs/Arenas with a DPS heavy setup, then for sure you'd want a CM...



Sigh. Put it this way. Two identical pallies, identical skills, identical gear. Ones got a CM, the other a TLA. Both have >1500 hp, so neither is going to die in the initial stun. Who do you think will win? The one with more burst, or the one who does more damage?



Lets say you decide to stick on that priest healer. However, theres a pally (for example) healing as well. You're never going to do enough burst to kill the priest while the pally is healing (classes here dont really matter.) If the priests are dumb enough to let themselves get low on hp, *then* burst will matter - but theyre only going to let themselves get low if thier teammates are also in dire need of heals, and thats only going to happen when the incoming DPS (not burst) is higher than thier healing output.

Every judgement attack has the same chance to proc crusader as a white swing, and if you assume that I got a crusader proc off of a soc proc, then CM has an even better chance to proc crusader then I thought it did (which was already more then tla) it's also a 100 heal.



I am confident if someone with my exact gear were to fight me with a tla, and me with a cm, in a no healing/wep swapping/stunning, just straight exorcisms and judgements. I would win.



with alot of hp to spare.



Why? because I would auto attack once, then kill them on the next swing.



In my reg set my ret pally has 1300 ish hp, 25 percent crit and 400 ap. My first swing will hit for 180 white, 110-120. 1k/1300 remaining, next swing will come with an exorcism, and a judgement.if even one thing crits, they're dead.



Total time elasped, 4 seconds. This doesn't actually happen because hammer of skill or bubble or divine prot or los-ing and bandaging are used, but in a straight dps ability war just standing there, the pally using thermaplugs left arm isn't even going to get his third swing off if ONE thing crits. so even if TLA does more dps, the raw burst from CM will win before that extra dps even gets to show.





Anyways, gettin' gnomer runs right now so we can get some decisive numbers to prove my point.

 

[Bansil]

the problem is, that one person here is not able to have a general decision on one hand and many situations on the other.



yes, CM is overall the better weapon, when only having one.

yes, TLA is doin more and a flat dmg.



there are situations the TLA is the better choice and there is no "CM is generally BiS" anymore. thats it.