Theorycrafting: Shaman optional stats

[Quintyx]

Hi,
I was thinking ( and it hurts ) about optional stats for restoration shaman, in end game guides write Intellect > Versatility > Mastery > Critical Strike > Haste for PVP , but on this bracket It have no extra beneficts from crit like Resurgence etc... but in f2p bracket where hunter take 1/2 HP with one shot and warlock oneshot you to hell with soul fire I am wondering what is minimum HP and versalility to survive this madness.
1. As a healer must survive , I look armory of other resto shaman and most of them have 30% and more verstatility, it is the most powerull stat, but what about HP? some o them have 1800 and other 2500, what is optional HP, becasue if you want more HP, you sosket 4 armor + 6 stams gem, it seem little OP , but beter is I think for resto shaman 2 int + 2 ver.
2. What about haste? in BFA was good stat, but nowadays its seems restoration shaman prefer mastery and verstatility. What about haste + verstatility EQ? to take about 20% haste to be faster healer ( less time for enemies to interupt) and also faster support dmg but less mastery is good option? Because of lack of other abilities on this level faster casting can be game changer, or is about playing style? Playing offensive or defensive?
3. What about talent and PVP talent ? what is best PVP talent for restoration shaman?
4. I haste not good stat in this expansion and is better crit < haste for restoration shaman?
5. Best EQ is to farm whole EQ with versatility + mastery / haste / crit ? Or find some sets or items with mor gems?

Off topic, what about ele? I look in armory and most of them go mastery and verstatility, it seem haste is not a priority stat.

 

[DeLindsay]

Resto: Int > Versa > whatever you get from Gear.
Ele: Int > Mastery > Versa > whatever you get from Gear.

Haste won't matter as much as you think for Shaman at lower Levels. Crit is nice and I'd prioritize it higher than Haste on Gear but not Gem/Enchant for either.

EDIT: Yes, you want a few Steady Talasite also. Get to the HP/Armor value you feel comfortable not dying too fast in then probably go Int-Versa Gems.

 

[Leek]

Ele would most definitely want Mastery, it literally procs a second strike almost like a mini crit and GENERATES extra maelstrom for generator spells. Vers is an overall increase to damage. I personally use haste but i think even at 24% haste it doesnt really cast that much faster.

 

[Quintyx]

Resto: Int > Versa > whatever you get from Gear.
Ele: Int > Mastery > Versa > whatever you get from Gear.

Haste won't matter as much as you think for Shaman at lower Levels. Crit is nice and I'd prioritize it higher than Haste on Gear but not Gem/Enchant for either.

Resto shaman at 20 have only 1 heal with cast time, and dmg spells with base time 2s, so is not tragedy to not have more haste, maybe only for dmg. Other healing class like holy priest and holy paladin have big heals with 2,5 second cast time so in thath case haste is more important.
Also Tidal Waves add 30% crit to next healing Surge after cast of Riptide so basicaly you can plan our bigger heal with that and Unleashed Life.

But still questiion, where is that haste border where 2s and 1,5s spell go down so is optional go haste until this bordel or go for crit or mastery

EDIT: When use this formula:
base cast time / ( 1+ haste)
It show I need 8 % haste for 0,1s down from Healing Surge and dmg spell and 12%
to have 0,2s down from dmg cast spells, 15% haste to have down 0,2s from Healing Surge, 18% haste for 0,3s down from dmg spells etc

EDIT: Yes, you want a few Steady Talasite also. Get to the HP/Armor value you feel comfortable not dying too fast in then probably go Int-Versa Gems.

2000 HP is optional or you think more is better?

 

[DeLindsay]

@Quintyx HP is 100% up to you. Build your set up WITHOUT many/any Steady Talasite and test it out in BG's. If you are getting nuked too fast then start added a couple until you feel comfortable. Keep in mind Shaman has the most Armor as a Healer outside of Holydin so the +Armor isn't the highest priority out of those Gems. As for Haste, my 10 Shammy sits at 1.4s cast of Healing Surge with 10.98% Haste (zero added by me, all Gear) and I feel like that's fast enough. 2 seconds is rough though.

First thing you need to do is actually get the Gear and see how your Stats land without any Enchants/Gems, then go from there.

 

[JadeFire]

I've mentioned the Mastery issue with Elemental in other posts. There is no argument, 100% mastery or as close as you can get to it beats any other nonsense... gem gear/ random enchants/ does not matter. Your main ability is always a crit, LB... you get two back to back... and your pvp ability gives you free resets... and then you fast track your way to Earth Shock 2x as fast.

I've tried the same build on Resto... seems to work just as well or better than Gem gear. Mastery on Resto is up around 164% in BGs if you stack it... the criticals you can get off of your heals on people that are below 25% are bonkers as fuck and usually heals people to full hp. Your self heals after you have taken burst also just take you back to full HP, it is sometimes just laugh worthy.

Mastery really is just nuts, and the only reason its not used by most is that BC Gem gear is very easy to get, a few class/specs don't DIRECTLY benefit from mastery, there are no mastery gems, and people that can use Crusader don't have give a shit about anything other than Crusader and living long enough to get Crusader procs.

Elemental DIRECTLY powers up from Mastery... more so than any other class/spec.
Resto DIRECTLY powers up from Mastery... and counter acts opposing burst damage better than any other class/spec.
Enhancement powers up from Mastery in all core abilities but one, Stormstrike. However, unlike the previous 2 you can get about the same effect with gem gear/crit/vers.

Shamans are tailored in 20 pvp to stack i28 green Mastery items and Mastery enchants.


****

I also believe there are just other i28 green builds possible... I mean you get Versatility up to around 70% if you stack it. Nobody had close to that in BFA... that could just be worth farming/doing. I'd love to see a 70% versatility Resto running around with talisite gems and the Skull Flame Shield, just being like "I just do not give a fuck about your bullshit dps".

When talking to 99% of people you are only talking about people who are going to run BC dungeons, get +2+2 gems (no offense, because that is easy to do, plain and simple), then talk about if 2% haste is better than 2% crit, with out exploring any other options. Mainly because those options take a lot of gold or time to farm.

Just food for thought.

 

[Quintyx]

@Quintyx HP is 100% up to you. Build your set up WITHOUT many/any Steady Talasite and test it out in BG's. If you are getting nuked too fast then start added a couple until you feel comfortable. Keep in mind Shaman has the most Armor as a Healer outside of Holydin so the +Armor isn't the highest priority out of those Gems. As for Haste, my 10 Shammy sits at 1.4s cast of Healing Surge with 10.98% Haste (zero added by me, all Gear) and I feel like that's fast enough. 2 seconds is rough though.

First thing you need to do is actually get the Gear and see how your Stats land without any Enchants/Gems, then go from there.

Geaing is progress, but I was thinking about HP and versatility to not be oneshoted, if 30% versatility reduce dmg by 15 %, so if soul fire can hit 2k dmg, so after reduction it hit 1,7k and only 300HP so have less time to heal up.
[doublepost=1609673866,1609673653][/doublepost]

I also believe there are just other i28 green builds possible... I mean you get Versatility up to around 70% if you stack it. Nobody had close to that in BFA... that could just be worth farming/doing. I'd love to see a 70% versatility Resto running around with talisite gems and the Skull Flame Shield, just being like "I just do not give a fuck about your bullshit dps".

When talking to 99% of people you are only talking about people who are going to run BC dungeons, get +2+2 gems (no offense, because that is easy to do, plain and simple), then talk about if 2% haste is better than 2% crit, with out exploring any other options. Mainly because those options take a lot of gold or time to farm.

Just food for thought.

70% versality is insine plus lot of stam, it is like healing walking rock but possible only with 28ilevel greens yes?
EDIT: stam and vers set will be great for flag carring in WSG

 

[remsham]

this is my sham 45% master and 11% haste. Lava burst does a lot of damage in a bg, got al the greens from supplier xin he is in the longying outpost in the towlong steppes in pandaria, still need to get the artifact today

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/magtheridon/remsham
[doublepost=1609676765,1609675105][/doublepost]i tried restoration for dungeon healing i ended up with 72% mastery , i can say it heals a lot with that much mastery.

 

[Gixxer66]

this is my sham 45% master and 11% haste. Lava burst does a lot of damage in a bg, got al the greens from supplier xin he is in the longying outpost in the towlong steppes in pandaria, still need to get the artifact today

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/magtheridon/remsham
[doublepost=1609676765,1609675105][/doublepost]i tried restoration for dungeon healing i ended up with 72% mastery , i can say it heals a lot with that much mastery.

Check the link to your Shaman - I get Character not found

 

[blue09]

I've mentioned the Mastery issue with Elemental in other posts. There is no argument, 100% mastery or as close as you can get to it beats any other nonsense... gem gear/ random enchants/ does not matter. Your main ability is always a crit, LB... you get two back to back... and your pvp ability gives you free resets... and then you fast track your way to Earth Shock 2x as fast.

****

I also believe there are just other i28 green builds possible... I mean you get Versatility up to around 70% if you stack it. Nobody had close to that in BFA... that could just be worth farming/doing. I'd love to see a 70% versatility Resto running around with talisite gems and the Skull Flame Shield, just being like "I just do not give a fuck about your bullshit dps".

I dont know if the stacking of versa up to 70% is possible, maybe with consumable, versa wizard oil on weapons, and some trinket procs....I remember reading that blizzard made some changes to the secondary stats stacking, and from 30% upwards you get diminishing returns ( be it either haste/crit/mastery/versa). Also, I think versatility has the worst scalling point-by-point compared with other stats. I agree that mastery stacking is pretty whack for alot of specs, but in my SUBJECTIVE opinion, I think a well balanced sham with close to the 30% in all stats will perform rather well. But, given the limited stat budget, I would personally forgo the crit stat and try to stack green 28 harmonious gear with sockets and full +3 haste or (+2 haste +2 versa) gems until haste cap with spellpower and intelect enchants (to compensate for no intel gems).


Edit: Also, I just remembered; there is a mini mail set from Zuldazar that has a nature damage proc, how viable is that ? Since the dmg proc would scale with mastery ( for encha) or with versatility (Ele/Resto) ?

 

[remsham]

Check the link to your Shaman - I get Character not found

Weird I can open it without problems

 

[JadeFire]

I dont know if the stacking of versa up to 70% is possible, maybe with consumable, versa wizard oil on weapons, and some trinket procs....I remember reading that blizzard made some changes to the secondary stats stacking, and from 30% upwards you get diminishing returns ( be it either haste/crit/mastery/versa). Also, I think versatility has the worst scalling point-by-point compared with other stats. I agree that mastery stacking is pretty whack for alot of specs, but in my SUBJECTIVE opinion, I think a well balanced sham with close to the 30% in all stats will perform rather well. But, given the limited stat budget, I would personally forgo the crit stat and try to stack green 28 harmonious gear with sockets and full +3 haste or (+2 haste +2 versa) gems until haste cap with spellpower and intelect enchants (to compensate for no intel gems).


Edit: Also, I just remembered; there is a mini mail set from Zuldazar that has a nature damage proc, how viable is that ? Since the dmg proc would scale with mastery ( for encha) or with versatility (Ele/Resto) ?

I'm close to getting it done with all Adaptable gear... you have to remember i28 greens give stats like +26 versatility for neck/rings +10 for trinkets +15-+9 for sub pieces. You will probably not be able to farm all Adaptable/Savant gear with slots/terts in 2 years, but you can get some with and without slots.

Get it out of your head that healing is about the highest intelligence (THIS IS NOT BFA). That only matters in the worst PuG where you are at Zero risk from the shit team you are fighting. Versatility is also about damage reduction... that is 35% overall. 70% increase to base healing is still tasty.

 

[mirrorbender]

I'm close to getting it done with all Adaptable gear... you have to remember i28 greens give stats like +26 versatility for neck/rings +10 for trinkets +15-+9 for sub pieces. You will probably not be able to farm all Adaptable/Savant gear with slots/terts in 2 years, but you can get some with and without slots.

Get it out of your head that healing is about the highest intelligence (THIS IS NOT BFA). That only matters in the worst PuG where you are at Zero risk from the shit team you are fighting. Versatility is also about damage reduction... that is 35% overall. 70% increase to base healing is still tasty.

By my math 70% versatility would require about 360(!) points of versatility. I doubt it's possible, but I'll believe it if I see it.

 

[JadeFire]

By my math 70% versatility would require about 360(!) points of versatility. I doubt it's possible, but I'll believe it if I see it.

Maybe my dumb ass math was wrong I can get vers up to 227 with i28 gear/artifacts? This is still theory nonsense for me.

***

Back to mastery gear that I can actually have on/use. The biggest downfall of Elemental is that your big dick damage is still tied to 1) Flame shock as it has to be on the target you are going to obliterate 2) Earthshock has a huge cost for usually a small payoff (450ish base hit is cool, but not for the huge investment especially if you are not maximizing overload with mastery).

LB does 450 AND 400 with overload if flameshock is on the target... by the time the guy knows he's been hit the second 2 are already on the way... and you only have to fire 10 bolts/LB to get an earthshock off.

Given that earthshock does not crit you can hit somebody for 450+450+400+400+450es that is 2150ish in 4 seconds. I can't even get CLOSE to replicating that with intelligence gems/no mastery. Now that is not Hunter Lawl damage or Arms Elkk tusk mega crit, but its still good.

LB does 180+140 with every overload.

I lose about 6% mastery in a BG which sucks ass, I'd really need the savant rings to keep it above 100%.

 

[Quintyx]

I'm close to getting it done with all Adaptable gear... you have to remember i28 greens give stats like +26 versatility for neck/rings +10 for trinkets +15-+9 for sub pieces. You will probably not be able to farm all Adaptable/Savant gear with slots/terts in 2 years, but you can get some with and without slots.

Get it out of your head that healing is about the highest intelligence (THIS IS NOT BFA). That only matters in the worst PuG where you are at Zero risk from the shit team you are fighting. Versatility is also about damage reduction... that is 35% overall. 70% increase to base healing is still tasty.

But if I must choose beetwen item with stam and higher secondary stat or stam + int and lower secondary stat, is better with int, or not? So is better stack VERS and MASTERY to have more healing output then int?

 

[JadeFire]

I only think that mastery is broken on Resto and Elemental. As I said, Your heals on resto are directly effected by how much mastery you have, so you are usually just healing to full with 1 button. And Elemental at its core is built around mastery at 20, if you don't go for 100% overload you are just fooling yourself and you should play a mage/desto warlock.

Most of the "theory crafting" comes from people assuming they are going to live though burst. The truth is that when you get Deathgripped into a enemy mob, youare dead.. you might be able to glider out or whatever, but usually even with 5k HP that I have on my MW monk... you are just dead. The burst is just too high if you are playing against other twinks, that can stack 2 silences.

As I said up above, the only real specs that truly benefit from just going FULL HAM on stamina are ones that have crusader procs as an option.

 

[Henry]

It's important to have Talasite, to an extent. Armor has diminishing returns beyond a certain threshold, and stacking Stam at the cost of Int or secondaries is detrimental after ~2.5k HP or so.

If I were gearing an RSham, I'd prioritize a few key TBC socket pieces and get my Talasite gems out of the way, after which I'd focus on getting my Haste to ~18-20%, then optimizing for Versatility. For a healer, a balanced gear setup > focusing in on a single stat at the cost of others.

I'd likely go with a mix of Aurora and Harmonious i28s (Adaptable when/if I could get my hands on it), and enchant/gem for Intellect first and Versatility second.

In an actual BG, you want to be tanky enough to withstand poke while still being able to get some heals off, you want your Haste high enough where your cast times are manageable, and you want enough Int & Mastery where you can generally cast 1 heal to top off your target, as opposed to 2. Focusing in too strictly on any one component will come at the cost of the others; balance is key.

 

[JadeFire]

It's important to have Talasite, to an extent. Armor has diminishing returns beyond a certain threshold, and stacking Stam at the cost of Int or secondaries is detrimental after ~2.5k HP or so.

If I were gearing an RSham, I'd prioritize a few key TBC socket pieces and get my Talasite gems out of the way, after which I'd focus on getting my Haste to ~18-20%, then optimizing for Versatility. For a healer, a balanced gear setup > focusing in on a single stat at the cost of others.

I'd likely go with a mix of Aurora and Harmonious i28s (Adaptable when/if I could get my hands on it), and enchant/gem for Intellect first and Versatility second.

It just depends on how many greens you have with slots. If you have all Savant with slots, there is no way I would waste one gear slot on BC gem gear... the secondary stats are random/bad.

Most people are going down the road that is the easiest to get... BC gem gear. Or as your ret is built, you don't have to care about strength because Crusader fixes all of your problems. There is no Crusader proc to make a TankHeal build good.

Haste is just not important, you have one heal that benefits from it on Resto and going from 1.4 to 1.2 is not that significant when you can just flat out increase your Healing surge/Rip/Life by 160% with mastery with DEEP HEALING.

With the burst meta, unless you are flat out buidling for "tank heal" it is not going to save you most of the time... and your healing just suffers... again back to just Resto's core mastery ability DEEP HEALING is just busted good.. and is specially set up to counter burst... the more you have taken the more you heal.

***

I will stipulate if I was going for a secondary outside of Mastery it would be Haste... but I would not buy any Feverflare gear unless I did not have a savant piece.

 

[Henry]

It just depends on how many greens you have with slots. If you have all Savant with slots, there is no way I would waste one gear slot on BC gem gear... the secondary stats are random/bad.

Most people are going down the road that is the easiest to get... BC gem gear. Or as your ret is built, you don't have to care about strength because Crusader fixes all of your problems. There is no Crusader proc to make a TankHeal build good.

Haste is just not important, you have one heal that benefits from it on Resto and going from 1.4 to 1.2 is not that significant when you can just flat out increase your Healing surge/Rip/Life by 160% with mastery with DEEP HEALING.

With the burst meta, unless you are flat out buidling for "tank heal" it is not going to save you most of the time... and your healing just suffers... again back to just Resto's core mastery ability DEEP HEALING is just busted good.. and is specially set up to counter burst... the more you have taken the more you heal.

Yeah I get what you’re saying. I played exclusively RSham through BFA, so my opinions might be dated and not relevant anymore in a new meta.

My thinking is that in an actual Random BG, most of the time, the majority of your teammates aren’t going to be highly geared Vets with huge health pools, so being able to get off a 3k heal by stacking Mastery isn’t going to matter as much as getting off those heals FAST and being tanky enough to be in a position where you CAN be healing your teammates as opposed to trying to keep yourself alive.

When the majority of your heal targets have 1.5-2k HP pools, getting them from 30% to full takes a lot less Mastery than you’d think, and in a burst meta it may be more important to get your cast time down by .5 seconds rather than over-killing your Mastery.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Quintyx]

Only holy paladin can survive burst dmg until bubble drop off So It seems the best choice is go vers and mastery and little bit haste and crit, and optional about 2,5k HP? But is better go for 28 ilevel green with vesr or vers + mastery ideal with socket then BC dungeon equip? becasue lot of twink in this forum have that that gear, it look like it is easier to get then EQ from BC dungeons.