EU+US The Rogue's Den: Stat Weights and Enchants

[Tonkks]

Good afternoon. Since the recent patch, twinks in all brackets have had an inflow of gear opportunities by way of quest items and BoEs having a chance to scale to epic. With these changes comes many opportunities for new "BiS" gear. I have been farming, as have most of you, for these new epics, but what I have noticed is that, as a class, we are all gearing fairly differently.

I wanted to start this discussion with an example of our BiS chest options (and also include the Gfd invasion chest)

https://www.wowhead.com/item=138192/felshroud-vest ilvl 30 variant: 8 agi / 12 stam / 5 crit / 5 vers

https://www.wowhead.com/item=31263/silvermoon-tunic epic quickblade: 8 agi / 13 stam / 4 crit / 7 vers

https://www.wowhead.com/item=1489/gloomshroud-armor scaled to ilvl 25: 10 agi / 10 stam / 7 crit

https://www.wowhead.com/item=2087/hard-crawler-carapace epic: 11 agi / 13 stam

What an ideal solution would be to this problem is to come up with stat weight multiples to effectively turn versatility and crit into agility. What i mean by this is that if 2.5 crit = 1 agility and 2.5 vers = 1 agility, the ilvl 30 felshroud chest would have 12 agility and 12 stamina, and would make the comparison to Hard Crawler Carapace, for instance, much easier.

Now... Crit and vers do not have equal weights, and I'm not entirely sure what the best way to establish these would be. I have heard that strictly damage-wise, 2.5 vers is fairly close to 1 agility. Does anyone currently use any tools to calculate this, or have any suggestions for doing so? I used to use AskMrRobot on my main, but we obviously do not have similar tools that are made for our bracket. What tactics are you guys using to establish your gear choices?


The second topic that I wanted to introduce for discussion was that of weapon enchants. Many are still using ele force, but I have seen several use dancing steel and very recently I have picked up lifestealing. I wanted to present my findings, but also open the door for discussion from you guys on what you have found and what your thoughts are on the topic.

I ran some testing last night on a Love Fool for ele force and lifestealing. What I found was not a surprise, with ele force effectively doing twice as much damage in a one minute test. I have uploaded both tests below.

I do not think it is as clean cut, though, as lifestealing is 6PPM, and ele force is 10 RPPM. This makes lifestealing more appealing on a slower weapon (see @necroaqua 's thread: https://xpoff.com/threads/how-rppm-works.81584/) and more punishing in the offhand (with a dagger). Also, PPM enchants typically proc at the beginning of a fight, closing the lifesteal gap the shorter the fight is. If you have a 10 second fight, and lifestealing and ele force both proc 4 times... you get the same damage benefit, but lifestealing offering the healing aspect. It is extremely uncommon that you will encounter a full 60 seconds of uninterrupted time on target, so take this test for what it is worth. Also keep in mind - haste is beneficial to PPM enchants. If you are someone who has a ton of legion TF gear that has haste in several slots, lifestealing becomes more attractive.

I did not do any testing on dancing steel at the time, as I ran out of scrolls and none were in my auction house. Dancing steel also has the issue where you have to manage the proc, especially on EFCs. I tried a few games with DS, and maybe i was just unluckly but it seemed pretty unforgiving (procing as I was exiting a fight/not procing when I was on EFC).

I look forward to seeing what you guys think on these topics!

 

[artonkn]

where's soothslayers?

 

[Tonkks]

where's soothslayers?

Epic sooth is the clear BIS. The purpose of this thread is formulaically deciding between two close pieces of gear. I should have included the rare version of sooth, but there are also countless other epic chests from quests. This was also an example- and logic that is applied between deciding between the options linked above should also be applicable to other chests.

 

[Eclipsis]

Tagging @Bestworld because he's already done a fair bit of work on this, and he has access to most, if not all of these items to continue testing if necessary.

 

[necroaqua]

Good stuff - I'd love a more thorough exploration on the value of various secondaries.

The 2.5 verse = 1 agi is a very rough calculation simply based on swapping gear to see how various tooltips change. It doesn't account for versatility's effect on ele force/life steal/hidden satyr or the damage reduction or increased healing.

In an ideal world where I had infinite time, I would love to explore existing damage sims and see about adapting them and writing various "scenarios" that would be common at 19 (or even write one). For rogue, the most common one would be opening on an opponent from stealth and doing damage for ~8-10 seconds, where the opponent is typically dead or has healed/escaped. This is probably a good scenario to base the stats around rather than pure damage over 60 seconds or something, which will emphasize different talents and stats.

I'd also like to throw up another common gearing question for rogues (which can likely be solved if we have those stat weights) - there are a lot of agi/stam rings that end up being 5agi/7stam rings, in addition to the MANY grandfathered argas rings. How do those compare to Dungeon Satchel/BG Crate rings of quickblade/adaptable and to things like deep fathom ring?

Unfortunately, my brief looks into simming level 19 scenarios have shown me that shit is SUPER COMPLICATED. I don't know if it is easy or even possible to really adapt max level sims to help with 19s. But writing a simulator is also super complex and hard to figure out.

 

[Bestworld]

Outside of epic sooth it really depends what kind of stats you have to move around. Looking at the items individually it would be Soothsaying > Silvermoon Tunic (quickblade: 7vers/4crit) > Hard Crawler > Legion TF.

If you have items with sufficient off-stats, then you can make Hard Crawler worth it, because 11 agi is ever so slightly more damage, but overall less value. However, Hard Crawler isn't even close to being as much of a pain in the ass to farm compared to Silvermoon Tunic. So there's that.

In terms of enchants, Elemental Force still outshines everything. It procs more often (as described) than Lifestealing, but it also does better numbers (higher base hits and crits, although minimal). What Lifestealing provides is a tiny bit more self-sustain at the loss of damage (which in certain situations can be a lot).

In the scenario where Lifestealing becomes beneficial are in longer fights where you might crutch on a little sustain, but in that same scenario, Elemental Force would just have more up-time and thus the pure damage from Elemental Force will outweigh Lifestealing in every way.

90% of all rogue damage will be in such a short window where the healing from Lifestealing won't matter, but the damage from Elemental Force might. That's how I'd look at it.

And the reason why Elemental Force and Lifestealing are miles ahead of any stat proc enchant (for rogues), is because armor is such a huge fucking deal. It feels like it matters way more now than in previous patches, due to the overall nerfs to certain enchants. However, Elemental Force and Lifestealing doesn't give a shit about armor. Therefore they provide consistent damage, with Elemental Force coming out on top.

Legit try hit a Shaman, a Hunter or a Druid in Bear Form with any other enchant than Elemental Force. It's a fucking joke.

 

[Tonkks]

In terms of enchants, Elemental Force still outshines everything. It procs more often (as described) than Lifestealing, but it also does better numbers (higher base hits and crits, although minimal). What Lifestealing provides is a tiny bit more self-sustain at the loss of damage (which in certain situations can be a lot).

In the scenario where Lifestealing becomes beneficial are in longer fights where you might crutch on a little sustain, but in that same scenario, Elemental Force would just have more up-time and thus the pure damage from Elemental Force will outweigh Lifestealing in every way.

90% of all rogue damage will be in such a short window where the healing from Lifestealing won't matter, but the damage from Elemental Force might. That's how I'd look at it.

And the reason why Elemental Force and Lifestealing are miles ahead of any stat proc enchant (for rogues), is because armor is such a huge fucking deal. It feels like it matters way more now than in previous patches, due to the overall nerfs to certain enchants. However, Elemental Force and Lifestealing doesn't give a shit about armor. Therefore they provide consistent damage, with Elemental Force coming out on top.

Legit try hit a Shaman, a Hunter or a Druid in Bear Form with any other enchant than Elemental Force. It's a fucking joke.

Wouldn’t it be the opposite though? Wouldn’t the 10 RPPM from elemental force pull ahead in a longer fight, where in a short window lifesteal and ele force are fairly comparable- with lifesteal offering the heal? From my testing, the damage from 1 proc of each was pretty much the same. Agree with your point about armor- I have noticed a difference now much larger than any other patch. At least in the main hand, I think lifesteal may edge out ele force in a short fight, while also benefiting from being on the PPM proc as opposed to the normalized RPPM

 

[necroaqua]

Wouldn’t it be the opposite though? Wouldn’t the 10 RPPM from elemental force pull ahead in a longer fight, where in a short window lifesteal and ele force are fairly comparable- with lifesteal offering the heal? From my testing, the damage from 1 proc of each was pretty much the same. Agree with your point about armor- I have noticed a difference now much larger than any other patch. At least in the main hand, I think lifesteal may edge out ele force in a short fight, while also benefiting from being on the PPM proc as opposed to the normalized RPPM

2.6 * 6 / 60 = 26% per proccable event for lifesteal. Its hard to compare that to ele force's "once every 6 seconds or so" (another reason why a sim would be awesome). But an early flurry of attacks (SS double procs especially) could do wonders. If we didn't have epic weapons, shadowfang's bolt would potentially make lifesteal even better with more proccable events.

34 (ele force) vs 28 (lifesteal) is pretty close. Proccing an extra time would more than make up for it.

And the reason why Elemental Force and Lifestealing are miles ahead of any stat proc enchant (for rogues), is because armor is such a huge fucking deal. It feels like it matters way more now than in previous patches, due to the overall nerfs to certain enchants. However, Elemental Force and Lifestealing doesn't give a shit about armor. Therefore they provide consistent damage, with Elemental Force coming out on top.

Legit try hit a Shaman, a Hunter or a Druid in Bear Form with any other enchant than Elemental Force. It's a fucking joke.

On the armor side of things, does that make subtlety any more viable [relative to outlaw with the ele force nerf] - at least in the very short fights before kiting and the lack of pistol shot really come into play?

 

[Bestworld]

2.6 * 6 / 60 = 26% per proccable event for lifesteal. Its hard to compare that to ele force's "once every 6 seconds or so" (another reason why a sim would be awesome). But an early flurry of attacks (SS double procs especially) could do wonders. If we didn't have epic weapons, shadowfang's bolt would potentially make lifesteal even better with more proccable events.

34 (ele force) vs 28 (lifesteal) is pretty close. Proccing an extra time would more than make up for it.




On the armor side of things, does that make subtlety any more viable - at least in the very short fights before kiting and the lack of pistol shot really come into play?

Outlaw is way better than Sub at this level overall because of Pistol Shot, procs and better energy. All of this allows Outlaw to do more things on its own or on cuts, while being able to peel for FC crosses or when playing D. You're able to take those crucial 1v1's on objectives as long as it's not a healer or an Ele Shaman, and do early cuts due to your ability to slow your target. If you try to do this as Sub, then it's literally a waste of time.

With that said, Sub isn't unviable per say, it has "some" use. The main (and pretty much almost only) scenario where Sub is good, is when super high stacks are in play. Sub has good burst damage if you get to pump your entire energy pool into a target, but lacks sustain due to poor energy and no rng mechanics to make up for it. So you basically look to do plays on returns and play around that full energy burst, because you're pretty much useless outside of that (except for your sap game ofc, that's still the same).

 

[worldoftears]

All this talk and I'm still over here desperately wishing for any epic MH. Fuck you shovel of mercy for proccing blue

 

[saxxon]

crit is so hard 2 value that i still dunno.

only useful wep enchants ive found is ele force still and landslide being a bit of fun along with wind walk

 

[Original]

We did this in wod and in legion on a small scale. Would be interesting to see in BFA if anything has changed.

 

[Yayo]

Lifestealing is really only worth it with a slow weapon and by the level you get one it’s not even worth using due to its static damage.

 

[necroaqua]

Landslide and Lifesteal are both PPM and are proc much more in higher brackets that have access to a slow 1h like cudgel.

I think landslide has the same downside that Bestworld mentioned for dancing steel - it is boosting your damage that is mitigated by armor. Add in that its 1 PPM - which gives 2.6*1/60 = 4.3% chance per event, which is very unreliable for the short window that rogues are looking at. Dancing steel is half the AP, but I think 2.3 RPPM is a bit more reliable. Hard choice there without a real slow weapon.


Has anyone run SimulationCraft before? It seems like it will pull a characters info/stats including the level. I don't know if its actually smart enough to pull the abilities and whatnot at that level or anything else, but I'm going to give that a shot when I get time.

 

[LZ]

slightly off topic, but what do you guys look for in Agility:Stamina when deciding between two pieces? I see a lot of people max out agility almost completely, which I understand.

But at what point do you guys say "no, even this is not worth it." Is it 1 agility gained for 10 stamina lost, 3 to 7, 2 to 8, 5 to 9, etc ? I'm aware that it's not linear, but curious what people's thoughts are on this. What's the most stamina you would trade for 2 points of agility?

 

[Bestworld]

slightly off topic, but what do you guys look for in Agility:Stamina when deciding between two pieces? I see a lot of people max out agility almost completely, which I understand.

But at what point do you guys say "no, even this is not worth it." Is it 1 agility gained for 10 stamina lost, 3 to 7, 2 to 8, 5 to 9, etc ? I'm aware that it's not linear, but curious what people's thoughts are on this. What's the most stamina you would trade for 2 points of agility?

Just think of it like this.

You want 1600-1700 HP for mid/escort/d because you're mainly used for your setups and peeling in those scenarios, so doing that and not actually getting oneshot because you're running full glass mongoloid 1100 hp, is usually a good thing.

Then on cuts/low stacks you want to do good damage, but still not get oneshot by 1-3 classes, so you want 1500-1600 hp.

On super high stack goes (or all ins) you want that fatty oneshot potential, 1200-1300~ HP (so you still don't get oneshot).

 

[worldoftears]

Just think of it like this.

You want 1600-1700 HP for mid/escort/d because you're mainly used for your setups and peeling in those scenarios, so doing that and not actually getting oneshot because you're running full glass mongoloid 1100 hp, is usually a good thing.

Then on cuts/low stacks you want to do good damage, but still not get oneshot by 1-3 classes, so you want 1400-1500 hp.

On super high stack goes (or all ins) you want that fatty oneshot potential, 1200-1300~ HP (so you still don't get oneshot).

True scholars like me go 1900 hp and never switch gear

 

[Cattywompus]

I'm currently farming silvermoon tunic of the quickblade. What do you guys think about that versus hardened carapace? I have that already. Mh waptor thwapper oh slicer blade and debating master engi vs feathered Headdress. I will also tun boulder pads if I can find someone on my server yo enchant. I tested a tankier rogue vet and I really didn't like the play style compared to my main(12] rogue) glass cannon is going to be the way for me I think.

 

[Gaspedal]

Outside of epic sooth it really depends what kind of stats you have to move around. Looking at the items individually it would be Soothsaying > Silvermoon Tunic (quickblade: 7vers/4crit) > Hard Crawler > Legion TF.

If you have items with sufficient off-stats, then you can make Hard Crawler worth it, because 11 agi is ever so slightly more damage, but overall less value. However, Hard Crawler isn't even close to being as much of a pain in the ass to farm compared to Silvermoon Tunic. So there's that.

In terms of enchants, Elemental Force still outshines everything. It procs more often (as described) than Lifestealing, but it also does better numbers (higher base hits and crits, although minimal). What Lifestealing provides is a tiny bit more self-sustain at the loss of damage (which in certain situations can be a lot).

In the scenario where Lifestealing becomes beneficial are in longer fights where you might crutch on a little sustain, but in that same scenario, Elemental Force would just have more up-time and thus the pure damage from Elemental Force will outweigh Lifestealing in every way.

90% of all rogue damage will be in such a short window where the healing from Lifestealing won't matter, but the damage from Elemental Force might. That's how I'd look at it.

And the reason why Elemental Force and Lifestealing are miles ahead of any stat proc enchant (for rogues), is because armor is such a huge fucking deal. It feels like it matters way more now than in previous patches, due to the overall nerfs to certain enchants. However, Elemental Force and Lifestealing doesn't give a shit about armor. Therefore they provide consistent damage, with Elemental Force coming out on top.

Legit try hit a Shaman, a Hunter or a Druid in Bear Form with any other enchant than Elemental Force. It's a fucking joke.

lmao theres no way Hard crawler>Legion titanforged, 5 crit is way better than 1 agi in terms bc 2agi= 5vers, so 5crit>1agi

 

[LZ]

I'm currently farming silvermoon tunic of the quickblade. What do you guys think about that versus hardened carapace? I have that already. Mh waptor thwapper oh slicer blade and debating master engi vs feathered Headdress. I will also tun boulder pads if I can find someone on my server yo enchant. I tested a tankier rogue vet and I really didn't like the play style compared to my main(12] rogue) glass cannon is going to be the way for me I think.

a 6/6 silvermoon is 100% better than crawler, 8 agil + 6 vers/6 crit is trading like .5 agility if that even registers for 6 crit and 6 defensive vers. also agree w/ gaspedal about legion titanforge. shit, i'd prob use an aurora silvermoon over crawler, 6 haste for roughly half an agility?

i mean..... right? there's no way that's not a good trade


in defense of the tanky life, your dps is gonna be really good no matter what when you have epic weps, ele force, crusher, some epic gear- and there's prob some healers you can't kill 1v1 even with going all in on glass. having a lot of hp, lots of defensive vers- it lends itself to winning 1v2s, 2v2s, 2v4s. makes you really independent, with trinkets, standard, vial, bandaids, meld, etc you have pretty wack levels of survival at times. and a lot of situations where an instant kill is worthwhile, you still easily do enough damage to clean it up- like an fc w/ stacks

it's kinda like why i like weaponmaster over quick draw- the situations where u regret not having consistency >>> the situations where u regret not having more potential damage

buuuuuttt burst damage is $$$$$ and max dps in the opener is super valuable.

i think u really gotta lean into out of stealth cc with macros and stuff to get the most out of being tankier. but you can do that even with a glass set. def a personal choice imo, esp if you don't wanna run multiple sets.

i feel like i always luv playing with glassier rogues, and i think they enjoy playing with me the synergy is gr8