The Fury nerf was the last straw

The real truth is. Most of us dont endgame because we cant. Twinks have always been ment to shit on people or run wargames. Since there is no wargames except arena which most dont play you are left with solo que or premading. Fotm has always been a thing. Even at high levels. High end pvp rogues, dks, mages are bonkers right now. It doesnt stop the rank 1s from working around it in rbgs and the ladder....most people at the core of this game dont have an ilvl of 250 plus on a main nor a single arena achievement over 2400 because in reality they never were good so they came to the twink bracket to think they are good by two tapping someone. The only skill is in organized pvp. Or one premade with less people out playing another premade with more people with the same team composition. Premades have been a thing since the start. You should play with people. I prefer to solo que but thats me. Just admit most people here are actually dogshit and dont want to use their brain capacity to hit more than 10 buttons. It that simple. Figure it the fuck out already. Go to end game. Get gladiator or rank 1 end game. Then talk all the shit you want. I only know a select few that have gladiator and like 1 or two that hold actual current rank 1 titles that dont even play twinks anymore. Many have purchased gladiator titles and accounts. Hell i sell accounts as a side hustle and have had various twinks buy them off me. You know who you are. Wink wink. Ive seen people that are cabale of being good at end game but dont even challenge themselves because they think they cant do it. Ive seen players mechanically better then other gladiators but dont want to chase any titles. I havent touched twinks in two weeks because im pushing for glad this season because the mount is dope. Back in s14 i got glorious tyranny in wod primal vic and legion demonic tyranny. Besides getting the coolest pvp illusions in the game i have yet to play hard core end game until this season because i actually enjoy shitting on levelers and other twinks. I wish more organized pvp was a thing. Wargames are fun for the bg aspect.
Or... We're people who just want to have fun by gearing a low level character in a fun way by using gems, enchants, consumables and specific items rather than doing the same content over and over again for some boring item that the simulation app told us about.
Or we prefer playing a few casual BGs with the boys rather than wiping on a boring boss for 3 hours for that weird sense of accomplishment.
Or do quests in Darkshire, collect pets and all other kind of stuff that makes the game fun.

If this whole "you play 20 because you suck at 60" makes you feel better after you lose a BG to those same noobs, so be it.

Me personally, I came to the 20s bracket not because endgame was too hard but because it's boring. I couldn't care less about those so-called "accomplishments" like CE, R1 and so on. I don't even care about winning or losing as long as it's not a stomp on either side. You'll rarely even see me playing objectives or farming levelers. I'd rather go where the fights are and try to outplay twinks. You can call me bad if you'll feel better but in the end I'm the one who's having fun while you're losing sleep for that pointless R1 title.

Maybe you should realize that not everyone is the tryhard win-at-all-cost player and just plays the game as he sees fit without trying to accomplish anything.
 
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Just admit most people here are actually dogshit and dont want to use their brain capacity to hit more than 10 buttons. It that simple. Figure it the fuck out already. Go to end game. Get gladiator or rank 1 end game. Then talk all the shit you want.
Playing end game is like sucking dogshit through a curly straw. It's a lot of work and in the end, are you really sure what you got was something you wanted?

And no one should have to do that, much less dedicate the time needed to do that at a high level, to be able to look at the current state of twinking and say "this isnt for me"

If you arent having fun playing the game, then there's no need to stick around and there's certainly no need to say "well i havent gotten glad, so I cant really say anything. Better get back to the MMR salt mines"

what an insane way to think about things.
 
Or... We're people who just want to have fun by gearing a low level character in a fun way by using gems, enchants, consumables and specific items rather than doing the same content over and over again for some boring item that the simulation app told us about.
Or we prefer playing a few casual BGs with the boys rather than wiping on a boring boss for 3 hours for that weird sense of accomplishment.
Or do quests in Darkshire, collect pets and all other kind of stuff that makes the game fun.

If this whole "you play 20 because you suck at 60" makes you feel better after you lose a BG to those same noobs, so be it.

Me personally, I came to the 20s bracket not because endgame was too hard but because it's boring. I couldn't care less about those so-called "accomplishments" like CE, R1 and so on. I don't even care about winning or losing as long as it's not a stomp on either side. You'll rarely even see me playing objectives or farming levelers. I'd rather go where the fights are and try to outplay twinks. You can call me bad if you'll feel better but in the end I'm the one who's having fun while you're losing sleep for that pointless R1 title.

Maybe you should realize that not everyone is the tryhard win-at-all-cost player and just plays the game as he sees fit without trying to accomplish anything.

I said most people that play are dogshit. You can be shit at something and still have fun for all i care. Yes play the game the way you want its your time at the end of the day. What im trying to say is most people even if they tried to achieve something like gladiator that requires work and a challenge at level 60, they give up easily on themselves and try not to approve. Rather they sit and farm people on a level 20. Why i laughed when this clown is quitting because crusader is nerfed when arms warriors can still two tap somebody.
 
Playing end game is like sucking dogshit through a curly straw.

That's quite the image....you sir are a scholar and a poet.
Jokes aside, i feel like twinks are such a varied bunch that it's hard to generalize when it comes to why people twink (as shown by a somewhat recent thread on the topic): it might be time constraints for someone, nostalgia, or actually finding f2p WoW more enjoyable (i believe @Chops explained his take masterfully on his YouTube channel).
Now on to the topic of Crusader nerfs and OP's decision to quit, i believe it's his decision in the end and he/she shouldn't be chastised for quitting something he/she no longer found enjoyable, however silly his/her reasons might look to another.
 
Playing end game is like sucking dogshit through a curly straw. It's a lot of work and in the end, are you really sure what you got was something you wanted?

And no one should have to do that, much less dedicate the time needed to do that at a high level, to be able to look at the current state of twinking and say "this isnt for me"

If you arent having fun playing the game, then there's no need to stick around and there's certainly no need to say "well i havent gotten glad, so I cant really say anything. Better get back to the MMR salt mines"

what an insane way to think about things.
End game is not great, i agree, but the state of twinking with no rbg wargames going on is as well. Based on what ive seen in my opinion and alot of other active users that prefer to solo or duo que. Also ftp twinking is more grinding then end game. How the fuck are you going to say 60 is dogshit to some but not say that sitting and picking herbs or leveling jewel crafting on a level 20 from scratch or farming BiS gear is not like sucking shit through a curly straw for others? Ive seen parts of your streams it looks boring as fuck but to each their own. In my opinion its the stupidest shit ever and i would never waste my brain cells on it because it seems youre wasting your time. But thats me. Youre missing the entirety of what i said. I said some twinks dont even try end game pvp because they give up on themselves or dont want to challenge their ability. I said others tried at end game couldnt do it so they felt better two tapping someone on a level 20. I was offering gladiator or rank 1 as a challenge to the OP or anyone else who might want a challenge. If i could not articulate that for your comprehension level then my apologies .Whatever floats your boat. The truth is the truth. Most are still dog shit with the exception of some. And because the OP was tired of fotm hunters and mad because they nerfed him from smashing one button on the keyboard then so be it. But because someone cant handle low level tuning and rather quit because blizzard fixed something that was never intended to begin with is the dumbest shit ever.
 
In my opinion its the stupidest shit ever and i would never waste my brain cells on it because it seems youre wasting your time. But thats me.
I'm having fun. If I wasnt having fun, I wouldnt do it. Which was entirely my point. If someones not having fun at their hobby, then venting your spleen about how this is just them "not wanting to improve" or whatever is just nuts.
If i could not articulate that for your comprehension level then my apologies
you could not, though I'm not thinking thats a me problem.
Ive seen parts of your streams
I dont stream
 
Twinks talking past each other because they think the way they play is the default. I swear to god, if y'all make me break out the race car analogy again....

Just admit most people here are actually dogshit and dont want to use their brain capacity to hit more than 10 buttons. It that simple. Figure it the fuck out already.

Yes, but you (and admittedly I also) missed the OP's point entirely. Crusader gave him somewhat even footing with hunters to at least make casual BGs fun for him. It's not about "competitive PvP" or "challenges" or "skill level" for him (and most other players), but rather about being able to solo queue and have a reasonable opportunity of impacting the outcome of a game, all other variables being somewhat equal (which they're not, and that is the point).

Yes, he could just roll a hunter or take on the underdog challenge or go to end game instead or other options boring to him, and to most other players. Yes, it's tiring to see players complain about losing their OP-ness (which is admittedly why I dodged this thread for weeks), but your "most players are crap and stop whining about losing your OP enchant" doesn't address the issue.

There is organized pvp out there and it really is spectacular.

Thing is, it requires the kind of coordination and time commitment that people are increasingly not looking for. Derps complaint centers around being able to log on and just casually que randoms. Which is, mostly, the appeal of level 20 play. If we wanted to coordinate pvp in groups of just twinks... why didnt we choose a different bracket? But, nobody wants to casually que up to be a mob to someone elses raid boss. That feels like shit.

I'm not sure what the answer is in terms of fixing the game. But it does seem, increasingly, like the answer on a personal level is to simply stop playing BGs. And if the pvp is the only aspect of the game that appeals to you, the answer is to quit playing altogether. And its a highly understandable decision to make.

To that end, many players indeed made that decision. I don't know how many subs WoW currently sees, but I continue to boggle that on the entirety of the North American server cluster, so few people (twinks and levelers combined) PvP in the 20-29 bracket (arguably one of the largest PvP brackets outside of endgame) that arena skirmishes sometimes don't pop during primetime. No matter how we do the math on that, less than eight people in all of North America typically queue for arena skirmishes during peak times. Less, than, eight. That is staggeringly small.

There are all kinds of answers, all kinds of opportunities for fixing the game. Rather than pull out the laundry list of my "Top Ten Things Blizzard Can Do to Fix WoW", let's focus on the one that pisses me off every time someone replies to a complaint with "get gud".

WoW is a hard game. Like, really hard. And some of you "get gud" turkeys who played it for years forgot just how much work you had to put into learning even the basics of how WoW operates. But here's the thing -- WoW's content isn't hard, especially these days. WoW's difficulty comes from mastering its obtuse interface, and that makes WoW hard in ways that most players, especially newer players, struggle to overcome.

If we want to learn a first person shooter, or a card game, or a MOBA, or any other established genre of video game, we figure out the basic controls, and then spend the vast majority of our time learning the content. Sure, we might tweak mouse speed or visual settings, but that takes a tiny amount of time compared to learning abilities and counters, maps, card effects, synergies, and so forth. We spend most of our game time learning, improving, and enjoying the game itself.

Then there's World of Warcraft.

After you installed the game, did you adjust your settings to maximize visual distance? Download addons to track cooldowns and statuses of enemies and teammates, as well as organize your screen? Did you develop macros to combine common spells and abilities? Decide which modifier keys you would use to differentiate targets vs. spells? Bind focus target and target assist? Organize your bars to allow you to move and use abilities at the same time without breaking your fingers? Did you learn which enchants overlap others, which stack, and which don't even proc until later levels, let alone take the time to understand the different proc rates of enchants from different expansions? Did you learn about diminishing returns of stats, and diminishing returns of categories of effects in combat? How about the variations of spells and abilities that change when entering instanced PvP versus any other time and place in WoW?

WoW is not an accessible game. It has a radically steep learning curve because so much of what there is to know about playing WoW isn't immediately apparent in the game itself, and doesn't become clear when facing other players. While I'm sure we could double the number of examples I provided above, most players (including long-time players) know maybe half of what I listed. Some of the examples aren't that important. Other examples will change how the entire game works for a player.

That's also part of what makes WoW so great. When we do invest the time and effort into customizing and mastering the interface, WoW facilitates player interaction better than any MMO ever made. The bones of WoW are flat out incredible, even if the flesh is rotted.

Just in the last year, Blizzard made some major strides to improve the accessibility of WoW, which gives me a lot of hope for the future of the game. But right now, WoW remains really hard to learn, and it doesn't help that blatant balance problems deter people from even trying in the first place. Yeah, players can "get gud", but WoW itself needs to at least meet them partway.
 
The real truth is. Most of us dont endgame because we cant.
Hmmm. I'll give you that... It's entirely possible, even if not likley. I'll also agree that Derpy is right.
I see it that both may be true at once, & still only but 2 descriptions of the 20twink experience. Hunters ARE too OP right now; & while It's a cheap thrill, it is also an aspect of twinking that we all want to get to, through either gearing or skill. In lieu of nerfs, it'd be great to see some buffs to the other classes; but we all know that'll probably never happen. I pains me to hear that someone is quitting an aspect of gameplay that was borne out of the desire to escape frustration, out of frustration?! I know it isn't because he stinks.
Good luck with Glad, that mount is pretty swag... I reckon we'll have more than a year to grind towards it.
 
missed the OP's point entirely. Crusader gave him somewhat even footing with hunters to at least make casual BGs fun for him.


But it's the way he put it that lacks empathetic response... just as there would be none if any of those jillion hunters "quit cuz hunter nerfs" if any of their specs got saddled back into reasonable line with the rest.

And still not even then, as that would actually BE nerfs... not fixing broken items/mechanics, genuinely nerfing a class.
 
I don't PvP nearly as much as I did at the start of the expansion. The reason mostly being the bloody dreadful unbalancing of hunters in every BG sucking the fun out of games. Whenever I needed to step away from the toxic PvP mess, I would get on my fury warrior and either queue up for or solo dungeons to cool off. But now that isn't even fun anymore since talasite is gone and crusader was nerfed into the ground.

I had a similar situation sometime during Warlords of Draenor when shadow priests, feral druids, and brewmaster monks were one-shotting everything, but at the time I wasn't really playing other games. I had nowhere else to turn so I kept playing. These days, I have many other games I play with my WoW alternative being Final Fantasy 14. I feel like if I step away from the game now, it could actually be the end of my World of Warcraft experience permanently. It's so cussing abstract to think of a world where the game I've been playing for 10 years just isn't there anymore. I'm kinda getting emotional just typing this out right now.

Anyway, I'm not going to delete my 20's; Ðerpy, Ðerp, Ðerped, Ðerping, Ðerps, Ðerpyderp and Ðerpeh like I did with my first 20's; Møm, Móm, Mòm, Môm, Mõm and Möm, (amazing names, yes I know.) I might get on every now and then to mess around but I don't have the retention to play a game when there are 8 survival hunters on the other team just killing me before I can leave the graveyard.

The last time I played endgame was in Mists of Pandaria and I've been in the 20-24-29 bracket ever since. There is no way I'm playing endgame in Shadowlands because... well.. you all know. I loved twinking but I just don't find happiness here anymore.

Thanks for the fun years.
OMFG I remember the warlords of draenor days, keg smash doing like 1.5-1.8k dmg on 2.8-3k health pools. ferals druids with full points hitting like 2.8-3.4k ferious bites. Shadow priest dominating with with having flash heal and shadowheal so they never got locked out and did massive dmg. Heck even a twinked arcane mage didnt do as much damage as those specs you named, i think it was about 1.5k damage with 4 stacks on arcane and you went oohm really fast after like 7 arcane blast.
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the root of the hunter problem is the simple fact that most players have no balls

if you actively play a hunter, you're a cancer

if you enjoy being this way, you're a coward and this is the only escape you have from the real world reminding you how much of a pussy you really are

if you know someone who actively plays a hunter and you haven't yet told them to stop playing it and reroll, you're a moron

before you nerds quote me with some dumb shit and for the actual monkeys, notice how i used the word "actively" , meaning you queue hunter in 20s everyday

now imagine if this way of thinking was more common, we could actually have more good bgs instead of the pointless one sided ape circus

also, obviously this is aimed at the tryhard sweats, not the little innocent timmy's who just started playing the game or just really enjoy hunter but aren't good enough to really impact the outcome of a bg regularly (every bg), to those players please forgive me, but if you ever get good at the game and you continue to play hunter and if it's still busted at low level, which it probably will be, then you too can call yourself a soft pussy baby back bitch




insulting people and calling them bitches is not gonna make them stop playing hunters been fighting these hunter twinks drag, chinx, and others all week. Trying to shame folks into not playing hunters to make the 20s brakcet better will never worked in the past 11 years of this bracket being alive. The problem is hunters have been op for the past 11 years in this 20s bracket in some expansions more op then others.

The thing is in shadowlands hunters have even toolkit and abilities now at 20 then in any expansion ever before,there damage is still massive but have been alot more op in privous seasons, remember warlords of dreanorsurvival had that crazy short-cd throwing axe ability with basically did 1.2-1-3k burst damage in 1.5 seconds on 2.8-3k health pools. I think raptors strike did like 1.4-1.6k damage crit for most twinks.

THE PROBLEM is the other specs/classes have gotten much weaker blizzard needs to bring the other specs and classes up in power make them scale better in lower lvl pvp. You got demo lvl 20 twink shadow bolt doing 300 damage crit on 2.8-3k health pools. Melee damage and hunters damage is instant no casting needed so their is more spike damage, plus you can't get really get disarmed or interupted. So you end up with most bgs consisting of 50 percent of the team on either side being hunters.
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I said most people that play are dogshit. You can be shit at something and still have fun for all i care. Yes play the game the way you want its your time at the end of the day. What im trying to say is most people even if they tried to achieve something like gladiator that requires work and a challenge at level 60, they give up easily on themselves and try not to approve. Rather they sit and farm people on a level 20. Why i laughed when this clown is quitting because crusader is nerfed when arms warriors can still two tap somebody.


The crusader nerf was needed , healing for 900 hp and on crits 1800 was to much. He tries to justify it by bringing up hunters being op. He didn't care about warriors being able to fight 1 vs 3 people and not drying and being almost unkillable for lvlers attacking him. What about the other classes that don't do enough damage to kill before crusader procs. If hes leaving the bracket because of this nerf i say good .

Hes just upset the spec/ class he plays that is op got destroyed by the crusader nerf. i think it heals you 300 hp now on crit with scaling at lvl 20-29 in bgs which is still good on 2.8-3k health pools.
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So you're comparing a mode designed specifically for solo q in 60s arena to random bgs at lvl 20? Seems like a completely different concept that doesn't have anything to do with the point of this thread to me.
you don't get it if they put that in at lvl 60 in the future they might do it for random bgs, a system were only solo q people fight other soloq people. If this happens premades will literally die over night in random bgs. Because most bg people are lvlers who solo que at about a 85 percent clip.
 
Second everything chops said here, with emphasis on the “fotm” premade aspect.

There’s a select and growing number of 20s here that have their fotm setup with “good ‘nuff” gear on one or both factions and just que whichever side is winning under the guise of “playing with my friends”

They just want easy games. Thats fine. Go play Smite or LoL though.
this is so fuckn funny, i remeber playing shadowlands and bfa, and i kept seeing this twink arcane mage that played alot on horde side in like 8 out of 10 games with premade, i think he name was smallxforces some name like that. Low and behold now hes on the alliance side.

What happen is alot of these twinks paly in premades and when they solo que if they see the enemy fraction has to many twinks or premades they transfer to the opposite fraction, and say they wanna play with buddies.
 
"Also ftp twinking is more grinding then end game."

I wonder, @Chops how long have you used the gems that you did all the grinding for on your FTP? Like, if I started a FTP at the beginning of SL Nov 2020 and did the gem grind I would still be using the items that I got from that grind right? There is not a single player at the end game that gets a piece of gear that doesn't NEED to be upgraded nearly every patch just to stay relevant to the current content. It's not a good comparison, there are no strong similarities.
 
you don't get it if they put that in at lvl 60 in the future they might do it for random bgs, a system were only solo q people fight other soloq people. If this happens premades will literally die over night in random bgs. Because most bg people are lvlers who solo que at about a 85 percent clip.
Chances of this happening are exactly 0.
 
"Also ftp twinking is more grinding then end game."

I wonder, @Chops how long have you used the gems that you did all the grinding for on your FTP? Like, if I started a FTP at the beginning of SL Nov 2020 and did the gem grind I would still be using the items that I got from that grind right? There is not a single player at the end game that gets a piece of gear that doesn't NEED to be upgraded nearly every patch just to stay relevant to the current content. It's not a good comparison, there are no strong similarities.
A good question!

Specifically about gems, if you were smart (I am not) you did the gem grind early in SL, piled up a couple stacks of gems and have not run out. I can think of one piece of gear for my warrior that needed changing (ornate leggings to greaves of the martyr) that actually cost me gems.

But ultimately, you put in a hard weeks worth of effort (and then coast for a couple more weeks on gem transmutes) and you're done gearing for an xpac at least. Maybe make a quick update here and there once every couple of months (oh look, they nerfed artifacts). If you're smart, that upgrade is often from something you already stowed away in your bank because "hey, this 3 gem slot weapon might be useful someday".

You're never done gearing at end game. Ever. Even when I was raiding and my guild had raids on farm, we all knew we'd never finish our gear before the next raid patch was released and render all of gear obsolete. There's a new arena season. End game players are having to grind out a new set of gear. Twinks (F2P and vet alike) are mostly in the same gear we were a year ago.

I think people have an idea that F2P is a lot of endless grinding because some of the more visible F2P players are also some of the hardest grinders. Conzils Rezzan farm comes to mind, my slog for a socket ring, Andres BFA foamspittle farm, etc but those grinds are mostly voluntary. It's something we seek out specifically because its the type of thing we find fun.

They aren't baked into the gameplay the way the end game gear grind is, so I guess its more obvious and thus seems like its more present?
 
I'm having fun. If I wasnt having fun, I wouldnt do it. Which was entirely my point. If someones not having fun at their hobby, then venting your spleen about how this is just them "not wanting to improve" or whatever is just nuts.
you could not, though I'm not thinking thats a me problem.
I dont stream
Your youtube videos is what i ment ive seen. Not twitch.
 
I only really twink these days to make trophy toons to show off outside org gates, I barely even pvp anymore ( twink or max lvl) the journy of making lvling theng earing a twink is more interesting to me then actually pvping with them lol. I figure I am an outlier in the twinking community though.
 
Goodbye I think I qed bgs with you and saw you outside durotar. Warrior before crusader buff was still good,you can still get a lot of kills no need to quit…
 

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