The double dichotomy proof of God

[FrozenWill]

Again, you display an astounding lack of understanding of what science even claims to know about the universe. having this conversation with you is indeed, pointless.



1. 'God exists' is not a fact.

2. Modern physics has shown how universes can exist without the need to invoke gods.

1.You can't prove that God doesn't exist. According to the Bible he does exist.

2. Your theories about how the universe can exist wiithout a creator are completely false because once again, things cannot be created without someone making them.

Justifying the fact that (in your opinion), the world being made from nothing can then support itself after not being made by anything is very hard to believe.

It's not really a pointless debate, Your opinions originated from theories that will never be proven to be true. You display an astounding lack of understanding about religion if you think I'm going to believe the universe was made from nothing.

 

[willix]

1.You can't prove that God doesn't exist. According to the Bible he does exist.

1. You can't prove a negative. For example you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. You can't prove that a picture of Kim Jong Un isn't painted on a rock inside a cave on Pluto. You can't prove [insert X noun here] doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if we are talking about something completely silly or something as fantastic as a god. You can't prove a negative is a general rule of thumb.

2. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claims. in this instance, you're the one claiming God exists. It's not up to me to prove that he doesn't, it's up to you to prove that he does. If I claim that I have a million dollars hidden in my mattress, no one is going to believe me until I actually prove my claim. I don't get to say 'you can't prove that I don't' and win the discussion. It doesn't work like that. Until you prove that god exists, we don't have a reason to believe he does.

3. The bible is a work of fiction, written by people who passed large portions of it down through generations by word of mouth. It is not a reliable document, nor is it a historically accurate document. Claiming that god exists because the Bible says so is like claiming god exists because the Sports section of the Sunday paper says so. The bible is not proof of anything, except that a bunch of nomadic people can read and write well enough to keep a diary.

2. Your theories about how the universe can exist wiithout a creator are completely false because once again, things cannot be created without someone making them.

Says who? Once again you're making a claim, you need to provide evidence to back it up or we have no reason to believe anything you say.

Lawrence M. Krauss | Closer to Truth

Justifying the fact that (in your opinion), the world being made from nothing can then support itself after not being made by anything is very hard to believe.

Facts exist, regardless of whether or not you believe them. Some of these facts completely contradict everything you think you know about the universe.

It's not really a pointless debate, Your opinions originated from theories that will never be proven to be true. You display an astounding lack of understanding about religion if you think I'm going to believe the universe was made from nothing.

Yes, it is a pointless debate. All you have are bronzed-age texts that prove absolutely nothing but an extremely ignorant/uneducated world view, by which you stand without knowing anything about science (let alone profess a willingness to learn something new).

You claim that I have an 'astounding lack of understanding about religion.' Do you even know what you're claiming? I've arrived at the position I'm at after being religious for a good portion of my life. After seeking more information about specific sects of religion, I came to the conclusion that their explanations are inadequate at best. I didn't just read an old text written by 1st century desert dwellers who had absolutely zero understanding of the universe they found themselves in and come to the conclusion they must be correct. Instead, I weighed these incredibly ignorant beliefs against the plethora of mathematical and scientific evidence which has been harvested over the last 200 years, much of which indicates just how backwards religion really is.

A proper discussion can never be had with someone who believes what you believe. The world simply isn't what you think it is; your existence is not what you want it to be.

 

[Kailthas]

1. You can't prove a negative. For example you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. You can't prove that a picture of Kim Jong Un isn't painted on a rock inside a cave on Pluto. You can't prove [insert X noun here] doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if we are talking about something completely silly or something as fantastic as a god. You can't prove a negative is a general rule of thumb.

You most definitely can prove a negative, e.g., by demonstrating that a thing possesses mutually exclusive attributes. Since we're on the topic of religion, the Judeo-Christian God is a self-contradiction: infinitely just but infinitely merciful, all compassionate but tolerant of evil, etc. It doesn't especially matter: we've not asserted a negative, therefore we're not obliged to prove a negative. The burden of proof rests upon the theist.

Your last observation reminded me of this fabulous scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf7YSlJReVM

"You didn't see what was, Joan. You saw what you wanted to see."

 

[FrozenWill]

1. You can't prove a negative. For example you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. You can't prove that a picture of Kim Jong Un isn't painted on a rock inside a cave on Pluto. You can't prove [insert X noun here] doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if we are talking about something completely silly or something as fantastic as a god. You can't prove a negative is a general rule of thumb.

2. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claims. in this instance, you're the one claiming God exists. It's not up to me to prove that he doesn't, it's up to you to prove that he does. If I claim that I have a million dollars hidden in my mattress, no one is going to believe me until I actually prove my claim. I don't get to say 'you can't prove that I don't' and win the discussion. It doesn't work like that. Until you prove that god exists, we don't have a reason to believe he does.

3. The bible is a work of fiction, written by people who passed large portions of it down through generations by word of mouth. It is not a reliable document, nor is it a historically accurate document. Claiming that god exists because the Bible says so is like claiming god exists because the Sports section of the Sunday paper says so. The bible is not proof of anything, except that a bunch of nomadic people can read and write well enough to keep a diary.



Says who? Once again you're making a claim, you need to provide evidence to back it up or we have no reason to believe anything you say.

Lawrence M. Krauss | Closer to Truth



Facts exist, regardless of whether or not you believe them. Some of these facts completely contradict everything you think you know about the universe.



Yes, it is a pointless debate. All you have are bronzed-age texts that prove absolutely nothing but an extremely ignorant/uneducated world view, by which you stand without knowing anything about science (let alone profess a willingness to learn something new).

You claim that I have an 'astounding lack of understanding about religion.' Do you even know what you're claiming? I've arrived at the position I'm at after being religious for a good portion of my life. After seeking more information about specific sects of religion, I came to the conclusion that their explanations are inadequate at best. I didn't just read an old text written by 1st century desert dwellers who had absolutely zero understanding of the universe they found themselves in and come to the conclusion they must be correct. Instead, I weighed these incredibly ignorant beliefs against the plethora of mathematical and scientific evidence which has been harvested over the last 200 years, much of which indicates just how backwards religion really is.

A proper discussion can never be had with someone who believes what you believe. The world simply isn't what you think it is; your existence is not what you want it to be.

Why would I have to prove that God exists if the Bible states he does? Your getting information from people/theories thy haven't even been proven... That's like believing something that you aren't sure to be true because it most likely isn't but you believe I anyways. I believe in God and believe that he created the Universe because I have faith in that belief. Although people might not believe in God since having faith comes into account, doesn't necessarily debunk the fact that he exists.

Your trying to say something isn't real without truly knowing if He is real or not.

I'm going to end the debate with that because we are both fairly strong on our beliefs and there is no persuasion

Merry Christmas and have a good one!

 

[The Saint]

1. You can't prove a negative. For example you can't prove that Unicorns don't exist. You can't prove that a picture of Kim Jong Un isn't painted on a rock inside a cave on Pluto. You can't prove [insert X noun here] doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if we are talking about something completely silly or something as fantastic as a god. You can't prove a negative is a general rule of thumb.

2. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claims. in this instance, you're the one claiming God exists. It's not up to me to prove that he doesn't, it's up to you to prove that he does. If I claim that I have a million dollars hidden in my mattress, no one is going to believe me until I actually prove my claim. I don't get to say 'you can't prove that I don't' and win the discussion. It doesn't work like that. Until you prove that god exists, we don't have a reason to believe he does.
3. The bible is a work of fiction, written by people who passed large portions of it down through generations by word of mouth. It is not a reliable document, nor is it a historically accurate document. Claiming that god exists because the Bible says so is like claiming god exists because the Sports section of the Sunday paper says so. The bible is not proof of anything, except that a bunch of nomadic people can read and write well enough to keep a diary.



Says who? Once again you're making a claim, you need to provide evidence to back it up or we have no reason to believe anything you say.

Lawrence M. Krauss | Closer to Truth



Facts exist, regardless of whether or not you believe them. Some of these facts completely contradict everything you think you know about the universe.



Yes, it is a pointless debate. All you have are bronzed-age texts that prove absolutely nothing but an extremely ignorant/uneducated world view, by which you stand without knowing anything about science (let alone profess a willingness to learn something new).

You claim that I have an 'astounding lack of understanding about religion.' Do you even know what you're claiming? I've arrived at the position I'm at after being religious for a good portion of my life. After seeking more information about specific sects of religion, I came to the conclusion that their explanations are inadequate at best. I didn't just read an old text written by 1st century desert dwellers who had absolutely zero understanding of the universe they found themselves in and come to the conclusion they must be correct. Instead, I weighed these incredibly ignorant beliefs against the plethora of mathematical and scientific evidence which has been harvested over the last 200 years, much of which indicates just how backwards religion really is.

A proper discussion can never be had with someone who believes what you believe. The world simply isn't what you think it is; your existence is not what you want it to be.

I have to agree on the burden of proof, its a pretty solid argument I've come across a lot in discussions on religion. Now could I see proven, definitive proof of the big bang theory or evolution?

[MENTION=21857]FrozenWill[/MENTION], have you ever actually read the bible?

 

[Goesid]

Why would I have to prove that God exists if the Bible states he does? Your getting information from people/theories thy haven't even been proven... That's like believing something that you aren't sure to be true because it most likely isn't but you believe I anyways. I believe in God and believe that he created the Universe because I have faith in that belief. Although people might not believe in God since having faith comes into account, doesn't necessarily debunk the fact that he exists.

Your trying to say something isn't real without truly knowing if He is real or not.

I'm going to end the debate with that because we are both fairly strong on our beliefs and there is no persuasion

Merry Christmas and have a good one!

Because the bible is bullshit?
Theories are better than bullshit.
Because your stupid.
God only exists in the heads of the people dumb enough to think he exists.
He knows that he isn't real.
He is right and you're wrong.

 

[FrozenWill]

Because the bible is bullshit?
Theories are better than bullshit.
Because your stupid.
God only exists in the heads of the people dumb enough to think he exists.
He knows that he isn't real.
He is right and you're wrong.

This post pretty much sums up the fact that you have to resort to insulting someone's beliefs rather than defending your own because you obviously take things too seriously. I'll debate with you when you bring knowledgeable arguments to the table rather than meaningless insults.

 

[Healsatin]

This post pretty much sums up the fact that you have to resort to insulting someone's beliefs rather than defending your own because you obviously take things too seriously. I'll debate with you when you bring knowledgeable arguments to the table rather than meaningless insults.

But your arguments aren't knowledgeable either, you're just blindly accepting faith as fact. It's not our fault you're too stubborn to even acknowledge the possibility that your religion isn't the end all be all answer to the universe. I personally believe all religions are wrong simply because there are multiple religions in existence. If there was one unified religion then maybe I might believe it, but because there are so many vastly different religious beliefs it's impossible for me to say that one is correct and all the other ones are wrong and therefore do not believe any of them are correct in the slightest. I believe religion is a construct of humanity, and will never be anything more. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, however you seem to be incapable of thinking for yourself in regard to religion and are merely blindly accepting fact as faith with no proof except that some arbitrary book tells you to do so. If you were born to a family with a different religious affiliation I'm positive you would just accept it as fact just like you're accepting cristiantiy. Also Satan killed far less people than God in the bible, so who's the good guy really? Satan killed 10 people in the entirety of the bible (just job's children which he either asked permission to do or was ordered to do so by God in order to test Job's faith). Where God has killed millions upon millions of people according to the bible. So please read the religious book you so firmly believe before you make up your mind in regards to the existence of an all knowing all powerful omnipresent being that doesn't do anything to stop the atrocities of this world. Also i don't understand how you can just ignore all scientific evidence because scientific ideas are theories instead of being 100% proven, yet you firmly believe in a work of fiction that also can never be 100% proven. Just because the scientific community is open to the idea of a changing understanding of the world doesn't mean that all their research is incorrect they just don't have a complete understanding of the universe yet.

 

[Goesid]

This post pretty much sums up the fact that you have to resort to insulting someone's beliefs rather than defending your own because you obviously take things too seriously. I'll debate with you when you bring knowledgeable arguments to the table rather than meaningless insults.

There is no debate with you. You just spew out bullshit because you have no knowledge science nor religion. That's why I have resorted to the fun of making a mockery out of your idiotic beliefs.

 

[FrozenWill]

There is no debate with you. You just spew out bullshit because you have no knowledge science nor religion. That's why I have resorted to the fun of making a mockery out of your idiotic beliefs.

Your theories are full of crap too. They haven't even been proven to be true and try never will. Your just saying everything your delusional college professor taught you and you think that it's true but you both are wrong.

 

[FrozenWill]

But your arguments aren't knowledgeable either, you're just blindly accepting faith as fact. It's not our fault you're too stubborn to even acknowledge the possibility that your religion isn't the end all be all answer to the universe. I personally believe all religions are wrong simply because there are multiple religions in existence. If there was one unified religion then maybe I might believe it, but because there are so many vastly different religious beliefs it's impossible for me to say that one is correct and all the other ones are wrong and therefore do not believe any of them are correct in the slightest. I believe religion is a construct of humanity, and will never be anything more. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, however you seem to be incapable of thinking for yourself in regard to religion and are merely blindly accepting fact as faith with no proof except that some arbitrary book tells you to do so. If you were born to a family with a different religious affiliation I'm positive you would just accept it as fact just like you're accepting cristiantiy. Also Satan killed far less people than God in the bible, so who's the good guy really? Satan killed 10 people in the entirety of the bible (just job's children which he either asked permission to do or was ordered to do so by God in order to test Job's faith). Where God has killed millions upon millions of people according to the bible. So please read the religious book you so firmly believe before you make up your mind in regards to the existence of an all knowing all powerful omnipresent being that doesn't do anything to stop the atrocities of this world. Also i don't understand how you can just ignore all scientific evidence because scientific ideas are theories instead of being 100% proven, yet you firmly believe in a work of fiction that also can never be 100% proven. Just because the scientific community is open to the idea of a changing understanding of the world doesn't mean that all their research is incorrect they just don't have a complete understanding of the universe yet.

God made everything, don't you think he has the authority tone able to take life when he needs to? And saying satan killed less people than God was a very dumb statement.

 

[dartofblue]

X amount of years ago two people were walking along and it started raining. One person asks if the other person is causing these drops of water falling from the sky. The person responds no and asks the other person the same thing. They come to the conclusion that something more powerful must be causing this. They notice that sometimes the rain is gentle, while other time the rain is harsh and destroys their homes. They come to the conclusion that something must be angering whoever is causing the rain. Over time these people develop rituals to please god. This of course happens throughout the world and thousands of religions are born. Fast forward X amount of years and here we are with people still fighting over their chosen rain-maker.

That's my understanding of it all summed up.

 

[Basement]

The brainwash is real.

 

[willix]

Why would I have to prove that God exists if the Bible states he does?

1. The bible isn't a factual book. It was written by uneducated desert dwelling people through oral tradition, much of which is likely fabricated and/or lost in translation as it was handed down through generations. These people didn't have a comprehensive understanding of the world they lived in.

2. Because the bible is based on many unsubstantiated claims, it's foolish to treat it as a factual book. We learn things about the world we find ourselves in through scientific process, something that the people who wrote the bible did not have as a resource. If the bible had been written as a product of scientific understanding, then we might have a reason to believe it to be true.

3. Just because a book says something, doesn't mean it's true. How many books do you know of that are fictitious? How many fictitious books do you know of that have a lot of content less fantastic that the bible? You have to prove the bible is true because you're making the claim that it is. The bible isn't proof of God just like it's not able to prove itself true.

Your getting information from people/theories thy haven't even been proven..

You seem to be having trouble with knowing anything about science. A theory doesn't get proven. A scientific theory is a series of statements about the causal elements for observed phenomena. A critical component of a scientific theory is that it provides explanations and predictions that can be tested. The point I'm trying to make isn't that the bible is false because science is right, it's that even if we completely disregard what science says about the origin of the universe, we still have zero reason to believe god exists and the bible is true.

More to the point, we have a working models of a great many things. We can diagnose and treat diseases because of science. We can modify foods to create more bountiful harvests with less environmental impact, furthering the potential of our species. We can design housing and commodities that not only improve the lives of people, but have the potential to enhance future generations of people. Can we do any of this with the bible or belief in god?

That's like believing something that you aren't sure to be true because it most likely isn't but you believe I anyways.

No, it really isn't. People believe what they decide to believe, most of the time based on evidence and reason. For instance, you go to the hospital when you're sick because reason tells you that's the best option for getting better, and there is overwhelming evidence that supports the idea. Scientists arrive at the conclusions they do because there's strong evidence to support their theories. Not because they are believing something that they aren't sure about but they decide to believe anyway.

To the contrary, you've just described religious beliefs.

I believe in God and believe that he created the Universe because I have faith in that belief.

Faith is a belief in something without good reason. People who have good reason to believe something, don't need faith. For example, you don't need to have faith to know that going to the hospital is a good idea when someone is injured or sick. You can sit around praying for that person to get better, but it's probably better that they go to a hospital instead of being prayed for. In fact, you believe that going to the hospital is the best option for a sick/injured person because overwhelming evidence gives you reason to believe that. You don't have faith in a hospitals ability to cure a person because the evidence has given you plenty of reason to believe.

Although people might not believe in God since having faith comes into account, doesn't necessarily debunk the fact that he exists.

You don't need to have faith to believe in god. Anyone can just decide on a whim to believe in him. 'Having faith' is a cop-out to pretend one is virtuous when they are just a normal person holding unfounded beliefs. Then you want to place some higher amount of value on these people because they choose to believe something stupidly easy to believe, should one decide. Stating god exists 'is a fact' does not make it one, as much as you want it to be true.

Your trying to say something isn't real without truly knowing if He is real or not.

No, I'm saying there is no reason, logically or otherwise, to believe god exists. I can make such a statement based on the facts and evidence we have about the universe we find ourselves in. I don't need to make the claim 'god isn't real' because such a claim is not necessary to point out the flaws in both your argument and reasoning. In essence, my position is a neutral position where claims must be met by their burden of proof.

This post pretty much sums up the fact that you have to resort to insulting someone's beliefs rather than defending your own because you obviously take things too seriously. I'll debate with you when you bring knowledgeable arguments to the table rather than meaningless insults.

We aren't talking about our beliefs though. We are talking about about yours, which you have stated to be in support of god's existence. A position as untenable as a position can be, considering the facts of the universe we find ourselves in. If you feel insulted because we don't treat your faith as a sacred cow, then you should probably get over it.

God made everything,

Do you even understand how ridiculous this idea is? In order to believe in god, you have to completely ignore the contradictions within the bible, the claims it makes about reality which are easily proven incorrect by science, and adopt a high level of ignorance to anyone who tries to point these facts out to you. It's impossible to have a conversation with people like you. Not sure why we even bother.

 

[FrozenWill]

1. The bible isn't a factual book. It was written by uneducated desert dwelling people through oral tradition, much of which is likely fabricated and/or lost in translation as it was handed down through generations. These people didn't have a comprehensive understanding of the world they lived in.

2. Because the bible is based on many unsubstantiated claims, it's foolish to treat it as a factual book. We learn things about the world we find ourselves in through scientific process, something that the people who wrote the bible did not have as a resource. If the bible had been written as a product of scientific understanding, then we might have a reason to believe it to be true.

3. Just because a book says something, doesn't mean it's true. How many books do you know of that are fictitious? How many fictitious books do you know of that have a lot of content less fantastic that the bible? You have to prove the bible is true because you're making the claim that it is. The bible isn't proof of God just like it's not able to prove itself true.



You seem to be having trouble with knowing anything about science. A theory doesn't get proven. A scientific theory is a series of statements about the causal elements for observed phenomena. A critical component of a scientific theory is that it provides explanations and predictions that can be tested. The point I'm trying to make isn't that the bible is false because science is right, it's that even if we completely disregard what science says about the origin of the universe, we still have zero reason to believe god exists and the bible is true.

More to the point, we have a working models of a great many things. We can diagnose and treat diseases because of science. We can modify foods to create more bountiful harvests with less environmental impact, furthering the potential of our species. We can design housing and commodities that not only improve the lives of people, but have the potential to enhance future generations of people. Can we do any of this with the bible or belief in god?



No, it really isn't. People believe what they decide to believe, most of the time based on evidence and reason. For instance, you go to the hospital when you're sick because reason tells you that's the best option for getting better, and there is overwhelming evidence that supports the idea. Scientists arrive at the conclusions they do because there's strong evidence to support their theories. Not because they are believing something that they aren't sure about but they decide to believe anyway.

To the contrary, you've just described religious beliefs.



Faith is a belief in something without good reason. People who have good reason to believe something, don't need faith. For example, you don't need to have faith to know that going to the hospital is a good idea when someone is injured or sick. You can sit around praying for that person to get better, but it's probably better that they go to a hospital instead of being prayed for. In fact, you believe that going to the hospital is the best option for a sick/injured person because overwhelming evidence gives you reason to believe that. You don't have faith in a hospitals ability to cure a person because the evidence has given you plenty of reason to believe.



You don't need to have faith to believe in god. Anyone can just decide on a whim to believe in him. 'Having faith' is a cop-out to pretend one is virtuous when they are just a normal person holding unfounded beliefs. Then you want to place some higher amount of value on these people because they choose to believe something stupidly easy to believe, should one decide. Stating god exists 'is a fact' does not make it one, as much as you want it to be true.



No, I'm saying there is no reason, logically or otherwise, to believe god exists. I can make such a statement based on the facts and evidence we have about the universe we find ourselves in. I don't need to make the claim 'god isn't real' because such a claim is not necessary to point out the flaws in both your argument and reasoning. In essence, my position is a neutral position where claims must be met by their burden of proof.



We aren't talking about our beliefs though. We are talking about about yours, which you have stated to be in support of god's existence. A position as untenable as a position can be, considering the facts of the universe we find ourselves in. If you feel insulted because we don't treat your faith as a sacred cow, then you should probably get over it.



Do you even understand how ridiculous this idea is? In order to believe in god, you have to completely ignore the contradictions within the bible, the claims it makes about reality which are easily proven incorrect by science, and adopt a high level of ignorance to anyone who tries to point these facts out to you. It's impossible to have a conversation with people like you. Not sure why we even bother.

You apparently didn't read my "Merry Christmas" post.

 

[spewfeel]

A fictional book written by man, they cause wars now follow if you can.


Sorry had to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6CNNWT4yFc

oh and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOKtE2bGj_w

 

[Annymous]

Before religion everyone was an Atheist. Then they invaded your country, killed the men, raped the women, and forced you to convert.

 

[Goesid]

Before religion everyone was an Atheist. Then they invaded your country, killed the men, raped the women, and forced you to convert.

What? Atheists made you convert? You make less sense than Frozenwill.

 

[Healsatin]

God made everything, don't you think he has the authority tone able to take life when he needs to? And saying satan killed less people than God was a very dumb statement.

so stating a literal fact is a dumb statement? i fail to see your logic there. Do you really want to worship a god that senselessly murders the entire population of the world except two people instead of aiding people to see the error of their ways? Do you really think the murder of all but two human beings on the face of the planet is needed? You also have literally no proof that god made everything except a book that was created billions of years after the earth was, which i would never consider "proof"

 

[Junoo]

The debate between whether God exists or not is a never ending argument. But something I love throwing at religious people is as follows: If God created us in his imagine (perfect), why is our body constantly trying to kill us (ex: if we dont eat/drink for a very short period of time, we die).

rofl no its not, he doesnt. Growing up, i had the option to stay religious or do whatever i choose was right for me. science of course made more sense that mystical being and some silly story book about him.