TBC is showing correct level loot on the PTR...

[Berlin]

I can see the desire for organized 20s, but I mean just looking at somebody like Ghoods toon makes me not want to bother at all... period... because you can use a preschool level of math to just determine the outcome of the games.

I've seen the "one hunter per team" bull shit attempts before... they never seemed to work out very well, since you just isolated 50% of all 20s.

I'm curious what an ideal situation would look like for you to consider it playable. The reality is that the days of class and item scaling not being balanced have been gone for a long time now. I mean, we represent a community of a few thousand in a game that has a player base of millions. Blizzard has a hard enough time balancing end-game PVP(especially now that there are more classes than in the past) and low-level play has been at the bottom of their priorities for as long as we've played this game. To expect low-level PvP to be scaled correctly is entirely unrealistic, and we know this. I think you have this image in your mind of some utopic scenario where all classes are on an even plane and broken ones won't exist. That's just not going to happen. Period.

The reality is that for as long as this game existed, there has always been a bigger fish in low-level pvp. And those bigger fish have been even more pronounced in the past 8-10 years compared to Cataclysm/Wotlk. We represent a small link in the chain that widens every single expansion. And, even in those glory days, there were classes that dominated in their relative brackets. 70 frost mages in cataclysm could erase most players in a single shatter. Ret Paladins in the 60s/70s bracket were practically gods in Alterac Valley and routinely got over 100 killing blows. Druid FC's in 29/29s for several expansions were incredibly strong(people are re-experiencing this now in Classic). Yes, Warlocks and Hunters are scaled high now. But this is just the reality of twinking. We play with the hand we are dealt. That's all that we can do.

 

[Chops]

I've seen the "one hunter per team" bull shit attempts before... they never seemed to work out very well, since you just isolated 50% of all 20s.

1-hunter-per-team WSG wargames and no-hunters-fuck-yall arena wargames happened all through BFA and SL man wtf are you even talking about?

 

[JadeFire]

I'm curious what an ideal situation would look like for you to consider it playable. The reality is that the days of class and item scaling not being balanced have been gone for a long time now. I mean, we represent a community of a few thousand in a game that has a player base of millions. Blizzard has a hard enough time balancing end-game PVP(especially now that there are more classes than in the past) and low-level play has been at the bottom of their priorities for as long as we've played this game. To expect low-level PvP to be scaled correctly is entirely unrealistic, and we know this. I think you have this image in your mind of some utopic scenario where all classes are on an even plane and broken ones won't exist. That's just not going to happen. Period.

The reality is that for as long as this game existed, there has always been a bigger fish in low-level pvp. And those bigger fish have been even more pronounced in the past 8-10 years compared to Cataclysm/Wotlk. We represent a small link in the chain that widens every single expansion. And, even in those glory days, there were classes that dominated in their relative brackets. 70 frost mages in cataclysm could erase most players in a single shatter. Ret Paladins in the 60s/70s bracket were practically gods in Alterac Valley and routinely got over 100 killing blows. Druid FC's in 29/29s for several expansions were incredibly strong(people are re-experiencing this now in Classic). Yes, Warlocks and Hunters are scaled high now. But this is just the reality of twinking. We play with the hand we are dealt. That's all that we can do.

I love these posts of times past...but, when you look around and you are the only one in the pool and everybody else is scrambling to get out... maybe its because you shit in your trunks. "I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do!" only works when you have absolute power.

Wargames
1) I'm sure there were some wargames/solo shuffle that popped with the same 10 guys over and over (maybe playing a few different geared toons). I get that. I should have emphasized the issue with the 20s currently in any attempt to replicate that... if you can duplicate those games do it, but they will not be able to be replicated if 20s want to play in epic i87s facing toons in i61s. (and it is time consuming - now - to get the i87s let's try to fool anybody - especially on multiple toons - that was the beauty of SL... gearing was easy across multiple toons).

It always starts out "Oh man, Johnny's toon is super geared and cool!"... "he killed me 1000 times".... then that person does not complain... they just stop playing... then everybody on the forums acts like they are too stupid to understand why that person quit.

So sure, i61 wargames sound fun.

 

[Donor]

I've seen the "one hunter per team" bull shit attempts before... they never seemed to work out very well, since you just isolated 50% of all 20s.

WSG wargames and arena wargames happened all through BFA and SL man wtf are you even talking about?

excuse me mr

 

[Berlin]

that was the beauty of SL... gearing was easy across multiple toons)

Oh no, trust me, I'm with you on the gearing part. The biggest weakness of DF for us so far is the accessibility of getting gear. We are basically forced to pick one character for the time commitment. If exceptionally strong gear exists, there should be an accessible path for everyone to get it. And some people don't want to bother at all--- and I don't blame them. If the queues fully die, it will 100% be because of that. So I feel you. As a few others have said, it's more effort than endgame now.

My point was that we have to be flexible in terms of everything else, and it feels like you're just shooting down every potential work-around people have. If people in 20s are organizing war games, and they've successfully had them in the past, it shouldn't be dismissed simply because of scaling since that's been an issue for years.

 

[Dj3nka]

and it feels like you're just shooting down every potential work-around people have. If people in 20s are organizing war games, and they've successfully had them in the past, it shouldn't be dismissed simply because of scaling since that's been an issue for years.

You are counting on something that will be rare and far between. If at all organized, and having enough people for it... You are counting on people that no longer queue and are disappointed and disheartened to play the gearing lottery and to put in more effort and time commitment than end game characters to even "keep up"
While on demand casual queues remain dead for most people that have time for it every now and then, the only thing we are realistically expecting is a slow death.

The whole point of this forum realistically and this entire hobby is built on the foundation of casual queues and having fun. 20s, both f2p and vets are not having any of it right now how things stand. 29s are a small minority that shat in the well.
Wargames are few and far between, well organized even less. The community does not live because of them.

I would love to see the bracket and the community thrive, i love to play from time to time and ive put a decent amount of effort into my chars, but the reality is reality, expecting organized games to save it all will only end up in disappointment.

 

[Berlin]

You are counting on something that will be rare and far between. If at all organized, and having enough people for it... You are counting on people that no longer queue and are disappointed and disheartened to play the gearing lottery and to put in more effort and time commitment than end game characters to even "keep up"
While on demand casual queues remain dead for most people that have time for it every now and then, the only thing we are realistically expecting is a slow death.

The whole point of this forum realistically and this entire hobby is built on the foundation of casual queues and having fun. 20s, both f2p and vets are not having any of it right now how things stand. 29s are a small minority that shat in the well.
Wargames are few and far between, well organized even less. The community does not live because of them.

I would love to see the bracket and the community thrive, i love to play from time to time and ive put a decent amount of effort into my chars, but the reality is reality, expecting organized games to save it all will only end up in disappointment.

TBF, I'm not really counting on anything. I lived through having to organize games through battlenet forums 9+ years ago after wrath/cata with the 60s bracket on life support with 1 or maybe 2 games a week. The reality is that flexibility is a necessary component when changes happen. A 20 in 61il facing 87s is going to be a hell of a lot better than a 61il 20 going against a full 112 level 29. It's either A: Find workarounds or B: Not play at all. Again, Blizzard does not care about low-level play. It's up to the community itself to organize.

 

[Chops]

The whole point of this forum realistically and this entire hobby is built on the foundation of casual queues and having fun. 20s, both f2p and vets are not having any of it right now how things stand. 29s are a small minority that shat in the well.
Wargames are few and far between, well organized even less. The community does not live because of them.

qft

the primary thing everyone wants is quick, low-barrier-to-entry, pvp. That no longer exists.

the question becomes "do you care enough about your toon to try and save a bracket?" and I legitimately get the impression that... no. As a whole, we dont. A few of the 29s mocked 20s for being overly emotionally attached to our characters but its that attachment that you need to fuel the effort to save a dying bracket.

 

[Warglave]

but its that attachment that you need to fuel the effort to save a dying bracket.

what you need is having no bracket existing where locked XP toons can queue into crappy f2play and levelers to faceroll them whenever they choose... Problem is that we need that so many years ago when every bracket except this one got that. And died when the bulk of their bracket came here to farm crappy opponents.

We're talking how many years now? That this has been the go-to bracket to beat up on noobs? Aside from the template-mixed queues that got taken away again shortly after the templates were gone... How many years have other brackets had no reason to start over? Why bother, when most will just come here to faceroll noobs.

Will any ever restart now? Probably not, cuz without levelers there is no bracket. Any bracket. 20 was the last chance.

edit- the current situation has reinforced without a doubt that no levelers=no games. That's on all twinking, not 20-9.

 

[Chops]

you continue to conflate "quick, easy ques" with "faceroll levelers" and its causing you to make really dumb assertions

 

[Warglave]

Well do you get quick easy queues without them? Make your assertion...

edit- and crappy f2play feeding the twinks is the same thing, "levelers" is a generalized term.

 

[Chops]

Make your assertion...

Youve been starting this same fight with anyone who will reply to you for almost 4 months now. So... pass.

 

[Warglave]

More like 10 years, but ok.

 

[Chops]

More like 10 years, but ok.

not sure i'd be admitting to that...

 

[Warglave]

Why not? The reality hasnt changed in that time. Still the same situation, still the same attitude, still the same result.

 

[JadeFire]

i61 20s wargames would be good. Finding it beyond my mental faculties to grind warforged on a 20 tho, seems pointless if only 10% of the population bothered/will bother... mainly my opinion because I'm lazy, but almost 49% because I don't care who says what, i61s versus i87s is just a fucking joke, period it's just to much of a gap.

 

[Berlin]

Why not? The reality hasnt changed in that time. Still the same situation, still the same attitude, still the same result.

All that's missing is Redemption

 

[Warglave]

All that's missing is Redemption

He wouldnt disagree about the levelers so much as just calling everyone without T3 trash.

i61 20s wargames would be good.

Totally agree, but only in concept as I have no experience with it yet. But it seems so.

I didnt delve into 20 so much yet, but how much stronger is ilvl 87 than full TBC sockets with grandfathered enchants from before the changes? Mastery classes certainly take a hit with the loss if those high ilvl greens, and the lack of enchanting for most new pieces. Secondary stats are gonne be the main issue, right?

Totally disregarding the SL regen gem stuff, now sure how much difference that makes with only a few one will get without a serious grind. It'd be like saying rivendare's blade makes ret immortal.... dont hear anyone chiming that.

edit- here's a hunter someone posted in another thread, not greatly optimized but full ilvl 87 with GF chants:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/aerie-peak/lofi

And here's one of my TBC hunters (I of course never played ):

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/antonidas/øø

I think the neck and ring on mine are red, so it's not even a good representation... but best I found skimming.

On paper, it looks like 20 could have fair wargames even just farming up some off-slots with epics and losing those enchants. But that's just one comparison.... and lots of toons were mostly greens, might not have farmed TBC.

(ok, I logged in and swapped out my dead greens for what I had in my bags, better comparison)
(And wow, that first dude has some serious HK lol)

 

[JadeFire]

He wouldnt disagree about the levelers so much as just calling everyone without T3 trash.



Totally agree, but only in concept as I have no experience with it yet. But it seems so.

I didnt delve into 20 so much yet, but how much stronger is ilvl 87 than full TBC sockets with grandfathered enchants from before the changes? Mastery classes certainly take a hit with the loss if those high ilvl greens, and the lack of enchanting for most new pieces. Secondary stats are gonne be the main issue, right?

Totally disregarding the SL regen gem stuff, now sure how much difference that makes with only a few one will get without a serious grind. It'd be like saying rivendare's blade makes ret immortal.... dont hear anyone chiming that.

edit- here's a hunter someone posted in another thread, not greatly optimized but full ilvl 87 with GF chants:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/aerie-peak/lofi

And here's one of my TBC hunters (I of course never played ):

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/antonidas/øø

I think the neck and ring on mine are red, so it's not even a good representation... but best I found skimming.

On paper, it looks like 20 could have fair wargames even just farming up some off-slots with epics and losing those enchants. But that's just one comparison.... and lots of toons were mostly greens, might not have farmed TBC.

(ok, I logged in and swapped out my dead greens for what I had in my bags, better comparison)
(And wow, that first dude has some serious HK lol)

There are just too many scenarios where the damage out put on the i87 will just win fights and the extra hp protects you from quite a bit of the lesser classes. Now sure hunter is going to be a bad example because outside of warlock its probably the class that gets the most benefit... just a crit/agility machine.

Its never take X agility and divide by Y and get the margin difference, that's not how a fluid in game experience works. If you look at Ghoods its even worse... he has like 230+ agility... he would just 2 shot my enhance shaman, every time and just move the the next target as if I was not in the game.

it's exponentially better to have i87... both as a solo take per toon and even more so when you start to compound the number of i87s on your team versus the other team not having them.

IMO i61 games where you could use i87 weapons would be just fine (and I only say that because you can get them from classic dungeons, ironfoe, dragons call, rivendare, etc.). Now sure it sucks to not be able to enchant anymore. I'm sure the type of people that want to wargame would be open to just saying "can you please not use that item" if it becomes a problem.

The current issue tho is just the classes with nukes... I logged on to SlackJackson to just see what he looked like now... in i61 gear lava burst with full malestrom crits for 700 in BG... that's not that great compared to other classes nukes.

 

[Berlin]

Yep, health would be the biggest drop-off I think from i61 to i87. Secondary stats would take a considerable hit too. Ideally, ToC would have stayed epic/been available to all 20s for you guys to have an easy and accessible gearing ramp. Losing that was a pretty huge blow. Classes that rely on mastery would suffer a little, but it would keep them competitive at the very least.

Edit: Looking at those armory links, you would almost have to gem stamina like Warglave to help offset it a little bit. Having an i87 weapon and trinkets with 61 everything else could be pretty decent