Dorigon
Alpha and Omega
That is how slower weapon speed works, yes. It isn't some magical unknown.
-Talon of Vultros Question-
- Thread starter Axione
- Start date
That is how slower weapon speed works, yes. It isn't some magical unknown.
Mesikämmen
pwner
Yeah, have never really made calculations about melee shitz so wouldn't know. Guess I'll buy the dagger and figure it all out by myself, doesn't look like people are too eager to post actual facts and stuff :3
Props to CopymyarmoryUS for pointing it out (ToV being viable) in the first place tho!
Lil Throwed
Legend
lmfao
Arkant
Freedom~
14 ap = 1 dps. 1 dps with ToV gives you 2 damage per hit. 1 dps with kris gives you 1.8 more damage. These numbers do not include Nightstalker.
It's not really rocket science.
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R Prime
OG
Nice thank you _Arkant_ for the clarification.
The breakpoint for AP is 280 AP for ToV to be better at ambush based on top end weapon deltas using ToV and Tailspike as examples.
ToV base top end 30
Tailspike base top end 34
Top end delta 4
ToV 280 AP /14 * 2 (wpn spd) = 40
TailS 280 AP /14 * 1.8 (wpnspd) = 36
Difference 4
So - wpn top end does make a difference but the delta between wpn top end dmg with the available daggers in this bracket is not significant and easy to overcome with >280 AP.
Kudos Curley and I stand corrected. Anyone disagree with my findings please jump in right meow.
The breakpoint for AP is 280 AP for ToV to be better at ambush based on top end weapon deltas using ToV and Tailspike as examples.
ToV base top end 30
Tailspike base top end 34
Top end delta 4
ToV 280 AP /14 * 2 (wpn spd) = 40
TailS 280 AP /14 * 1.8 (wpnspd) = 36
Difference 4
So - wpn top end does make a difference but the delta between wpn top end dmg with the available daggers in this bracket is not significant and easy to overcome with >280 AP.
Kudos Curley and I stand corrected. Anyone disagree with my findings please jump in right meow.
Mesikämmen
pwner
I would make my own calcs but only have access to telephone atm so it's not that practical. Thx for the clarification tho, about AP scaling. Barely had any idea how it worked. Would have been the easiest to just see the pics but what ya gonna do if nobody wants to post it
And the above calcs just don't seem right, I'd assume you have to slip at least weapon dmg somewhere there, too?
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Mocha
Legendary
Run all the numbers you want, won't make a difference in game if you use ToV over scarlet. If you can't drop an efc because you don't have those 2 extra points of top end, there are more issues to worry about like your offense not being capable of returning in the first place. Ambush efc with stacks, focus kick heals sap another member on D and the efc should be dead before your bomb stuns all of them.
If that extra damage is apparently what will make the difference between a return or not a return then everyone should be undead for the 70-160 lifesteal procs I'm constantly getting, adding up to 3,000 extra damage a game.
If that extra damage is apparently what will make the difference between a return or not a return then everyone should be undead for the 70-160 lifesteal procs I'm constantly getting, adding up to 3,000 extra damage a game.
Mesikämmen
pwner
Even if it was only 2 more top end with ToV, ambush multiplier makes it into 8ish (ambush w/ dagger is somewhere around 400% wpn dmg + initial). If you happen to crit, this 8 extra damage gets multiplied by 2 (or 200%) so it is now 16 more damage. If efc happens to have 10 stacks, it gets multiplied by yet another 200%. Now we're talking about 32 extra damage already. While this is not huge and obv gets a little smaller by reduction from resil and armor, it is still noticeable and can and will make a change at your offensive capabilities at some point.
Now Mocha, you are talking about a whole another topic here. Everyone knows that how you use your abilities, how well you can sync and interact DOES make a bigger difference to the outcome of offence / whole game than how you choose to equip your twink. But gearing makes a difference to it aswell, you can't deny it. However Marginal the difference between "best" and "second best", at some point it IS going to make or break the game. No matter if you play at skillcap, at an average level or way under it.
Even if you did everything near perfect, there's a chance of RNG uppercutting you right in the nutsack. You land your kick and sap perfectly, do everything you can in good order and efc gets to 20hp before your whole O gets cc'd for enought time for def to heal FC to full. He doesn't come close to death after that and game ends 1-0 to your loss. There's a ton of things you could blame why efc didnt quite drop. Teammates, latency, efc or def being so strong or whatever. Perhaps you don't blame anything, just think "well, shit" and move on to the next game. But if you weren't in the most optimal gear in the situation where everything went perfect but efc didn't die because of 5 or 20hp, you couldn't possibly say "Well, it didnt make a difference if I had used a better weapon".
And bringing your race choise to this discussion is completely irrelevant, AFAIK, they benefit from ToV and Kris exactly
Now Mocha, you are talking about a whole another topic here. Everyone knows that how you use your abilities, how well you can sync and interact DOES make a bigger difference to the outcome of offence / whole game than how you choose to equip your twink. But gearing makes a difference to it aswell, you can't deny it. However Marginal the difference between "best" and "second best", at some point it IS going to make or break the game. No matter if you play at skillcap, at an average level or way under it.
Even if you did everything near perfect, there's a chance of RNG uppercutting you right in the nutsack. You land your kick and sap perfectly, do everything you can in good order and efc gets to 20hp before your whole O gets cc'd for enought time for def to heal FC to full. He doesn't come close to death after that and game ends 1-0 to your loss. There's a ton of things you could blame why efc didnt quite drop. Teammates, latency, efc or def being so strong or whatever. Perhaps you don't blame anything, just think "well, shit" and move on to the next game. But if you weren't in the most optimal gear in the situation where everything went perfect but efc didn't die because of 5 or 20hp, you couldn't possibly say "Well, it didnt make a difference if I had used a better weapon".
And bringing your race choise to this discussion is completely irrelevant, AFAIK, they benefit from ToV and Kris exactly
Nakedplumber
Tink
People really find weird ways to replace Shadowfangs cuz they cant afford it
Yapah
Legend
With the logic of slower speed is better because of more AP I took this to the test on SF vs loom weapon on main hand, and what I found is crazy. With 15 agi SF MH and pyrium loom mace OH I get 122-148 damage, but when you switch it around to pyrium loom mace MH and 15 agi SF OH, I get 125-151 damage.
This would mean that 2.8 speed weapon with pyrium main hand, and shadowfang off hand would be BiS.
As for the post above, I have 2x Shadowfangs on my rouge but that doesn't mean something else cant be better. BiS can change and you need to accept that
This would mean that 2.8 speed weapon with pyrium main hand, and shadowfang off hand would be BiS.
As for the post above, I have 2x Shadowfangs on my rouge but that doesn't mean something else cant be better. BiS can change and you need to accept that
Sneaky
Legend
Nope. 2 SF's are still BiS for max swag set. Do you know what it is to inspect someone and see two Shadowfang icons? It's an IWIN button.
Mesikämmen
pwner
Jesus, you're clueless. This isn't about replacing SF in any way... Idk if SF was bis lolbush in cata, but in mop SF is not even near bis for ambushing. Just be quiet if you don't have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.
Also Rapah, what you said looks good on paper, but you miss out on procrate if SF aint on MH. And yes, there is nothing sexier than a dual SF rogue.
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Mesikämmen
pwner
Don't be biased bro, don't be biased!
Why do you think it's better now, after all? And got any numbers to back that up?
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Mocha
Legendary
1) taco
2) Let me know the next time you see a efc drop to 30% and you lose a premade because your rogue didn't have ToV
3) efc drops to 70 hp and doesnt die, you lose 0-1 with your ToV. If only you were undead and Touch of the grave procced you would have won.
Efcs in premades cannot really kite, often times they stick close to the base or the GY simply because if they get caught in a random place like tunnel they're completely recked. So with efcs at high stacks not having much of a shot to kite, nighstalker becomes a 100% waste of a talent nearly 100% of the time.
4) efc drops to 600 hp and doesn't die, you lose 0-1 with your ToV. (this is much more likely) if only you were subterfuge specced you would have won.
I understand what you're saying, but I have never seen *in 7 years of premading* an efc survive on less than 30 hp. This theory crafting of "if only you____" is nice for forums but bottom line I'd like to see a screenie the next time a premade efc survives on 30 hp and the rogue is 100% perfect on AP and gear (which would include him being Orc for the bonus to attack power)
edit and I highly doubt that the gain of top end is more than the loss in white hits. Let's see some numbers
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Arkant
Freedom~
Why don't you use 3 stats instead of 4 stats then? It doesn't make a difference anyways, right?
Mesikämmen
pwner
Exactly the point I'm trying to prove him. If you can improve gear, why wouldn't you?
Also, we're talking about toV being bis ambush here, why the fuck are you bringing up shit like your race selection, engineering, superfuge>nightstalker or your strats? Maybe you have some problems and want to bring yourself and your playstyle to the public as much as possible, but what the shit does it have to do with the topic?
Please, tell me why do you think ToV is shit. Cut The bullshit about your playstyle and tell us the facts. ty.
Curley
OG
Cut the shit you don't even know me. Shadowfan best for ambushing without stacks.
Mesikämmen
pwner
[GENERAL][/GENERAL]
That's illogical, why would ToV just randomly change to be better at a certain amount of stacks? Doesn't make sense, the damage boost from debuffs is linear and grows the same percentage for all damage, so why would SF be bis at no stacks but not bis at high stacks?
That's illogical, why would ToV just randomly change to be better at a certain amount of stacks? Doesn't make sense, the damage boost from debuffs is linear and grows the same percentage for all damage, so why would SF be bis at no stacks but not bis at high stacks?