US State of the Bracket and re: 19 TC
- Thread starter Painaid
- Start date
Donteventrii
OG
And this is what I deal with on a regular basis....
Tapatalked from a PACMAN 4.4 Note II
Yndigo
Something funny
Must be hard being you.
OP
OP
Painaid
The Immortal
Clarification is correct. The suggestion is not banning druids (as an entire class). It's banning feral druids. Period. The reasons have already been stated, so you already know the answer as to why.
Donteventrii
OG
Lots of facepalm, I assure you.
So you just said more specs are viable. What does that mean? DING DING DING, that's right!!! Class balance!
Must I make an instructional video so that you can understand this?
Yndigo
Something funny
So with your logic more "broken" specs = balance?
Donteventrii
OG
That's not what you said, and it's not the truth. More abilities at 29 grant more specs viability. This allows for a class that might still be comparatively weak, work masterfully with an adept user at the helm.
ffs, only one class has dispel at 19. By 29, they all do.
ffs, only one class has dispel at 19. By 29, they all do.
Rusks
Legend
and by 29 monks have guard. if any bracket is better than 19s its 39s
MYT
Legend
Varies but unless someone is a RL friend of someone or something of that nature everyone here has some fairly developed premade experience....even if it occurred long ago.
One thing it doesn't mean is just old school....there's some non-old schoolers in the guild. But generally speaking we only accept twinks with good premade experience.
Slyfoxx
Grandfathered
Hi -
A few may know me as a very old school twink since vanilla - I played in all of <Dominate>'s premades and then played in several guilds after Dominate faded away. Never been quite talented enough (or, more importantly, self-promotional enough) to be a superstar, but I can say that I've known the strategies and meta-games of the 19 brackets throughout its many forms.
I took 2 years off and came back like a month or two ago. Retrofitted my rogue and my priest with all the appropriate new gear - it's nice that it's so easy to make a twink these days. That's good for the bracket.
It's very easy for people to say that something "isn't what it used to be" so I'll try not to make this another "ah the old times were better" post. But while I think 19's are still playable, particularly with some rules (I totally agree with banning ferals to create a better game), I just don't think the current metagame is nearly as much fun.
Blizzard wanted to make leveling easier and doesn't care much about low-level pvp. So, they gave just about every spec high damage and decent burst to keep leveling very easy. They didn't give us health pools to keep up. We all know and accept this. However, what it leads to is the current meta-game where the entire game is a mid-field clash with FC's in the back because they can't afford to be away from their teams. Mostly gone is the concept of offense and defense. Offense and defense was pretty cool since it led to running routes and snares and peels. While there is some amount of strategy to the current metagame (knowing when to back off and when to push forward), twinking now really is basically a battle royale in the middle. The team that can focus fire better to gain a short term player advantage (kinda like a power play, until gy rezzes can happen) is likely to win.
I played in several premades tonight within MYT (practice). While they were more fun than pugs, these observations still mostly held true. I don't claim that there is no complexity left to the game. I just think that the current "complexities" are less enjoyable than when it took a bit longer to die and so there were more options for how to run your game. While there is a lot going underneath the current meta-game (cc'ing, not breaking cc, getting off silence/holy-lock, good coordinated focus fire, good snaring), the overall feel is just one of which team can push hard enough damage to counteract the other team's healing and push them back to break them, eventually dropping the fc with some burst when he has 9 stacks. I preferred when a team could win because their mage-priest-priest-pally defense (or mage-priest-shammy-pally, or mage-priest-shammy-druid) coordinated better while running routes than the other team's, allowing their own offense time to finally get a return.
In other words, I feel like WSG used to be a bit more like a game of chess at 19's, or at least checkers. Now it feels more like arm-wrestling. I'm not saying it's a horrible bracket to play in and I'm stilling queueing, but I don't enjoy it in the same way I enjoyed BC or even Cata.
Not sure if anyone else feels this way or if the current players actually think the current meta-game is better.
A few may know me as a very old school twink since vanilla - I played in all of <Dominate>'s premades and then played in several guilds after Dominate faded away. Never been quite talented enough (or, more importantly, self-promotional enough) to be a superstar, but I can say that I've known the strategies and meta-games of the 19 brackets throughout its many forms.
I took 2 years off and came back like a month or two ago. Retrofitted my rogue and my priest with all the appropriate new gear - it's nice that it's so easy to make a twink these days. That's good for the bracket.
It's very easy for people to say that something "isn't what it used to be" so I'll try not to make this another "ah the old times were better" post. But while I think 19's are still playable, particularly with some rules (I totally agree with banning ferals to create a better game), I just don't think the current metagame is nearly as much fun.
Blizzard wanted to make leveling easier and doesn't care much about low-level pvp. So, they gave just about every spec high damage and decent burst to keep leveling very easy. They didn't give us health pools to keep up. We all know and accept this. However, what it leads to is the current meta-game where the entire game is a mid-field clash with FC's in the back because they can't afford to be away from their teams. Mostly gone is the concept of offense and defense. Offense and defense was pretty cool since it led to running routes and snares and peels. While there is some amount of strategy to the current metagame (knowing when to back off and when to push forward), twinking now really is basically a battle royale in the middle. The team that can focus fire better to gain a short term player advantage (kinda like a power play, until gy rezzes can happen) is likely to win.
I played in several premades tonight within MYT (practice). While they were more fun than pugs, these observations still mostly held true. I don't claim that there is no complexity left to the game. I just think that the current "complexities" are less enjoyable than when it took a bit longer to die and so there were more options for how to run your game. While there is a lot going underneath the current meta-game (cc'ing, not breaking cc, getting off silence/holy-lock, good coordinated focus fire, good snaring), the overall feel is just one of which team can push hard enough damage to counteract the other team's healing and push them back to break them, eventually dropping the fc with some burst when he has 9 stacks. I preferred when a team could win because their mage-priest-priest-pally defense (or mage-priest-shammy-pally, or mage-priest-shammy-druid) coordinated better while running routes than the other team's, allowing their own offense time to finally get a return.
In other words, I feel like WSG used to be a bit more like a game of chess at 19's, or at least checkers. Now it feels more like arm-wrestling. I'm not saying it's a horrible bracket to play in and I'm stilling queueing, but I don't enjoy it in the same way I enjoyed BC or even Cata.
Not sure if anyone else feels this way or if the current players actually think the current meta-game is better.
Slyfoxx
Grandfathered
All that said, there are some really good things about the current community as compared to before. I appreciate that we can have a conversation in this thread where someone can point out the difference between a rule being to encourage "fairness" vs. a rule being to encourage "competition." And that people actually understand that post rather than responding with "u mad bro? y u crying bout f3ral?" That's a good thing.
Having played in about 40-50 pug games and 3 practice premades, the game is just more fun without ferals. The problem to me isn't even the stun. The biggest problem is ferocious bite and the fact that the feral can build their combo points anywhere they want, then stealth and drop a 5-point bite on anyone they want. As seen in the screenshot in this post, it's very common for that fb to be fore 2500+hp. Imagine on an FC who has stacks.
Yes, both teams can play ferals. I think the point is that while the game may currently be very bursty, the feral's uber 3k fb burst is so disruptive to how one has to play and so powerfully impacts which team wins that it simply makes the game less fun and interesting. If enough people agree that playing without ferals makes the bracket and premades feel more fun, then it totally makes sense to ban it - not for sake of fairness, but for sake of competition and fun.
(as a priest, it definitely sucks to have your bubble up but to have a cat throw a 3k fb on you out of stealth after a few instant 200-point hits. It's often insta-death before your finger can even react and mash something).
Having played in about 40-50 pug games and 3 practice premades, the game is just more fun without ferals. The problem to me isn't even the stun. The biggest problem is ferocious bite and the fact that the feral can build their combo points anywhere they want, then stealth and drop a 5-point bite on anyone they want. As seen in the screenshot in this post, it's very common for that fb to be fore 2500+hp. Imagine on an FC who has stacks.
Yes, both teams can play ferals. I think the point is that while the game may currently be very bursty, the feral's uber 3k fb burst is so disruptive to how one has to play and so powerfully impacts which team wins that it simply makes the game less fun and interesting. If enough people agree that playing without ferals makes the bracket and premades feel more fun, then it totally makes sense to ban it - not for sake of fairness, but for sake of competition and fun.
(as a priest, it definitely sucks to have your bubble up but to have a cat throw a 3k fb on you out of stealth after a few instant 200-point hits. It's often insta-death before your finger can even react and mash something).
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Darkchewie
2014 & 2015 TC Champion
To be honest, up until this point the sole reason ferals were not banned was because of your GM. I'm glad you guys have realized we were pushing for this ban to better the cup as a whole and not favor any one team. Hopefully Myrm will take note of nastiys change of heart and make the appropriate move to ban ferals in their current state for the twink cup
Edit - I have been informed that you are not in Nastis guild... I apologize for the slander
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MYT
Legend
Lol - funny comment regarding the slander. I think he is in the guild but possibly not...but several of the dominate guys are. But they're currently putting a team together with KP/PP for the cup. So possibly different team but same guild is a good way to put it? MYT has become something of an old school home which I love so happy those guys are here.
Anyways regarding my position just a quick comment. Yes it did evolve over time but it evolved quite awhile ago - I just don't post every time I update my opinion on something. My point, which I still believe, is that less rules in general is a better approach when considering new rules. That being said, extreme cases such as feral can be exceptions to that general rule and over time I learned their one shot ridiculousness. So I evolved - just about 6 weeks ago, not last night. My other point is that we need to include more people in the decision making process and I think that's now the case.
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Shamatix
Guest
An Idea could be just to have a spokes person for each guild in a skype group with Myrm really... I enlightened him about the old bugged satchel gear the other day and he had no clue that gear even exsisted and he hadnt banned such gear eventho it obviously should be banned., simply because he knew nothing about it But having a spokes person from each guild or smth could be a way to set some sort of ruleset I think. Because I know it's a huge task for Myrm alone and I am sure all help is appreciated, if that is not the case then I am sorry.
MYT
Legend
I think that's a great idea personally.
Allybeboba
Legend
Banning a spec in PuGs is quite easy. We did it 39's when prot Warriors were the steamrollers by AFKing them out. 19's are a tight enough knit community, one would hope, that if 39's could accomplish this the 19's could as well. It has been done on more than one occasion.
Just give the person a nice message asking them to not run feral in 19's any more or you will be booted by the group. And then proceed to boot them. Don't be mean or nasty, sooner or later they will get the message and change specs. And someday when feral damage gets toned down they can come back and play that toon they love so much.
/cheers
Just give the person a nice message asking them to not run feral in 19's any more or you will be booted by the group. And then proceed to boot them. Don't be mean or nasty, sooner or later they will get the message and change specs. And someday when feral damage gets toned down they can come back and play that toon they love so much.
/cheers