Social ethics in MMOs?

[maraki]

I think if you look at the responses to my posts, the nuanced and implicit question I was asking has more of an answer. The difference between how humans socialize digitally and in real life seems to be remarkably different when, in fact, given the amount of digital socialization we do, it ought to be comparable.

The responses to my posts for the most part miss the nuance and are representative of a sociopathic mindset. Imagine the question "Should people be allowed to smoke in public?" and then the response that is often given, "Why not? Its a free country." This kind of response - ignorant of rules and laws, socially or legally - is primary in a world, in this case digital, where nuance is absent and complexity is ignored.

Now you see my predicament. And perhaps you see why there are two distinct sides in the twink 60 debate. We might call them the Dems and the Trumpers. The first means well and has its share of dogmatism, but conceptualizes nuance. The latter is more like trying to babysit Jeffrey Dahmer.

If you're interested in the real questions here, reread the posts and try to understand the nuance. If you're not, then my guess is that you are part of the problem and the obstacle.

As much as we participate now in digital socializing, it makes sense to consider whether we attempt to consider a real social ethics inside the simulacra. If not to fix the problems inherent in the xpac for twinks (and there are plenty) but to get out of a digitized sociopathy that, most likely, effects a tangible social life.

 

[artonkn]

Take your meds

 

[Skeezin]

couldnt agree more, thank you for sharing some of your wisdom

 

[Sarmlery]

I think if you look at the responses to my posts, the nuanced and implicit question I was asking has more of an answer. The difference between how humans socialize digitally and in real life seems to be remarkably different when, in fact, given the amount of digital socialization we do, it ought to be comparable.

The responses to my posts for the most part miss the nuance and are representative of a sociopathic mindset. Imagine the question "Should people be allowed to smoke in public?" and then the response that is often given, "Why not? Its a free country." This kind of response - ignorant of rules and laws, socially or legally - is primary in a world, in this case digital, where nuance is absent and complexity is ignored.

Now you see my predicament. And perhaps you see why there are two distinct sides in the twink 60 debate. We might call them the Dems and the Trumpers. The first means well and has its share of dogmatism, but conceptualizes nuance. The latter is more like trying to babysit Jeffrey Dahmer.

If you're interested in the real questions here, reread the posts and try to understand the nuance. If you're not, then my guess is that you are part of the problem and the obstacle.

As much as we participate now in digital socializing, it makes sense to consider whether we attempt to consider a real social ethics inside the simulacra. If not to fix the problems inherent in the xpac for twinks (and there are plenty) but to get out of a digitized sociopathy that, most likely, effects a tangible social life.

You're fucked bud

 

[Selaya]

 

[iaccidentallytwink]

Meds!

 

[Kaxle]

 

[Emelia]

Ethics is nice and all but there is no governing body nor social structure to insure such a thing thrives. Besides the community guidelines set forth in the rules of both the game and this community.

I think if you look at the responses to my posts, the nuanced and implicit question I was asking has more of an answer. The difference between how humans socialize digitally and in real life seems to be remarkably different when, in fact, given the amount of digital socialization we do, it ought to be comparable.

The idea of ethics is lost on most gamers whilst inside the digital realm. A keyboard makes anyone a God. This is the difference between IRL and digital self strength. A mouse can be a t-rex if they have a keyboard.

I think you're forgetting that this is a game and even if it is someone's life it's still a game and as such shouldn't reflect anyone's true nature IRL.
The most ethical person has the right to be unetheical in a realm of make believe.

No one has the right to make anyone do anything. Only through threat of violence/losing out do we get in line. so GL getting others to be ethical (whatever that means)

The responses to my posts for the most part miss the nuance and are representative of a sociopathic mindset. Imagine the question "Should people be allowed to smoke in public?" and then the response that is often given, "Why not? Its a free country." This kind of response - ignorant of rules and laws, socially or legally - is primary in a world, in this case digital, where nuance is absent and complexity is ignored.

We have had governing bodies kill entire cultures to ensure their view of "ethics". You might as well make the argument that fat people are bad for the healthcare system and should be forced to lose weight BY LAW. that is but one example of the slip and slide to genocide.

A candle high on a stand in the middle of a room gives more light than one that's fallen over in the corner. Be the light you want to see, there is no other option besides violence.

 

[Dragpz]

Welcome to the internet brah. People can be asses online but won't talk mad shit irl? Wow color me surprised

 

[Dorigon]

Any social interaction in an MMO is going to be governed by the underlying mechanics of the game. WoW is very much an "every man for himself" type of game, and social interactions reflect that. Played Everquest back in the day and one's reputation stuck with them due to game mechanics and the major difficulty of reaching max level and gearing up.

 

[Zemmix]

Could be worse, could be LoL.

Be nice to others, and maybe others will be nice to you. The dramatic majority of my WoW social interactions have been positive.

 

[Krater]

Whoa, you lost me with your political analogy. Next thing we know you will be advocating for social credit scores based on our conduct in game. I would almost say twinking falls under more of a conservative mindset.... put it a ton of time and effort grinding gear and then reap the rewards. Leftists would be the ones wanting everyone to get templated gear upon entering a bg and then use skill-based matchmaking (a bane on modern games) to ensure your win to loss ratio is always 1:1

It's a competitive game, especially PVP, so people are going to do what they can to win... if you think there should be more rules and gear needs to be nerfed take it up with Blizz. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Kaxle]

skill-based matchmaking (a bane on modern games)

Coward

 

[Krater]

Coward

lol, well my main experience with it was in apex legends, which has a rather overzealous implementation. But I think its pointless to have sbmm in random game modes, that's what ranked game modes are for. My main problem with it is that there is never any incentive to get better, or even any perception of getting better. As you get better you just get harder matches... with the goal of just a boring consistent 1:1 win loss ratio.

 

[Pookamhura]

Coward

There are two competing mind sets in modern gaming. One is "I paid more so I should get more" and the other other is "I invested more so I should get more". Pay-to-win is the prevailing mindset because we currently live in a society where profit is the guiding principle so the "I paid more so I should get more" mindset is currently the most popular one because it makes the publishers more profit and completely dominates eastern MMOs. "I invested more so I should get more" is a more western mindset, investment meaning time used to develop skill which is why western MMOs try to focus more on play-to-win as opposed to pay-to-win. Unfortunately, whatever your philosophy is it is clear from a corporate perspective that pay-to-win generates more revenue than play-to-win therefore if you want your game to be profitable then you should cultivate a pay-more player base.

Most people simply lack the free time for a play-to-win model to be an effective effort-to-dopamine reward system. I want to get the dopamine rush from winning. I can get that rush by being good at the mechanics, or I can simply pay money to put me in a class of players where I get the dopamine with minimal effort. Human nature means the one with the least amount of effort is going to be the one that wins.

A game mechanic where gear is standardized amongst classes appeals greatly to the invest-more crowd. Invest-more is more rewarding personally. I put in the time, I gained the experience, I get the wins, I get the dopamine. The sad reality is most people don't have the patience for that. Why should I have to compete against someone who has spent years slogging it out to learn how to manipulate every aspect of the system to maximize their performance when I have disposable income that could be spent on giving me an instant advantage. Free time is a premium. If you don't have a lot of it then the pay-more model makes more sense than the invest-more model. No amount of shaming of the play-to-win situation is going to fix that.

Now because game systems are extremely simplified versions of real-life mechanics it really doesn't take too long to learn enough of the game system to be able to be a competent player. Several months should do it. Yeah they guy who has spent 10 years playing the game will still be better than you but that advantage begins to fall off in time. A player who spends 10 years learning the mechanics doesn't have that big an advantage over a player who has 2 years experience, especially in a game where new expansions come out ever few years which upends the status-quo. In fact, a single patch can put a long term player at a huge disadvantage because humans tend to form habits and are reluctant to embrace change. A 2 year player hasn't invested as much as a 10 year player so they don't have as much to lose adapting to a meta-breaking update. But if your game favours the pay-more mindset (which will generate more revenue for your company) it doesn't matter if you upend the mechanic every couple of years. The pay-mores will pay more to gain the advantage, the invest-mores will be at a disadvantage. The invest-mores may ultimately be the better players but the pay-mores will always be ahead on the effort-to-dopamine score card.

 

[Sarmlery]

lol, well my main experience with it was in apex legends, which has a rather overzealous implementation. But I think its pointless to have sbmm in random game modes, that's what ranked game modes are for.

Apex non ranked is more sweaty than ranked half the time. Everyone's just going for 20 bomb badges and 4k badges.

 

[Ivo]

...inside the simulacra...

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=116369/simulacra
Boy that's messed up

 

[Leek]

My guy if you want to do a social studies research, do it in real life, not an online platform where anyone can pretend to be anything

 

[maraki]

There are two competing mind sets in modern gaming. One is "I paid more so I should get more" and the other other is "I invested more so I should get more". Pay-to-win is the prevailing mindset because we currently live in a society where profit is the guiding principle so the "I paid more so I should get more" mindset is currently the most popular one because it makes the publishers more profit and completely dominates eastern MMOs. "I invested more so I should get more" is a more western mindset, investment meaning time used to develop skill which is why western MMOs try to focus more on play-to-win as opposed to pay-to-win. Unfortunately, whatever your philosophy is it is clear from a corporate perspective that pay-to-win generates more revenue than play-to-win therefore if you want your game to be profitable then you should cultivate a pay-more player base.

Most people simply lack the free time for a play-to-win model to be an effective effort-to-dopamine reward system. I want to get the dopamine rush from winning. I can get that rush by being good at the mechanics, or I can simply pay money to put me in a class of players where I get the dopamine with minimal effort. Human nature means the one with the least amount of effort is going to be the one that wins.

A game mechanic where gear is standardized amongst classes appeals greatly to the invest-more crowd. Invest-more is more rewarding personally. I put in the time, I gained the experience, I get the wins, I get the dopamine. The sad reality is most people don't have the patience for that. Why should I have to compete against someone who has spent years slogging it out to learn how to manipulate every aspect of the system to maximize their performance when I have disposable income that could be spent on giving me an instant advantage. Free time is a premium. If you don't have a lot of it then the pay-more model makes more sense than the invest-more model. No amount of shaming of the play-to-win situation is going to fix that.

Now because game systems are extremely simplified versions of real-life mechanics it really doesn't take too long to learn enough of the game system to be able to be a competent player. Several months should do it. Yeah they guy who has spent 10 years playing the game will still be better than you but that advantage begins to fall off in time. A player who spends 10 years learning the mechanics doesn't have that big an advantage over a player who has 2 years experience, especially in a game where new expansions come out ever few years which upends the status-quo. In fact, a single patch can put a long term player at a huge disadvantage because humans tend to form habits and are reluctant to embrace change. A 2 year player hasn't invested as much as a 10 year player so they don't have as much to lose adapting to a meta-breaking update. But if your game favours the pay-more mindset (which will generate more revenue for your company) it doesn't matter if you upend the mechanic every couple of years. The pay-mores will pay more to gain the advantage, the invest-mores will be at a disadvantage. The invest-mores may ultimately be the better players but the pay-mores will always be ahead on the effort-to-dopamine score card.

Im confused how as a twink you "pay more" to get more gear. There are some small benefits to spending real money, like xfers and AH gear, but because that is such a small part of DF 60s, I feel like I'm missing something and I'd love to hear where I can buy stuff. Because i would do it.

 

[maraki]

My guy if you want to do a social studies research, do it in real life, not an online platform where anyone can pretend to be anything

unlike pretending to be anything in real life you mean?