Social ethics in MMOs?

The guys just seething because he missed the 60 op gear. You can see from the initial thread spam, now it’s gone into crazy statements intellectual wall of text in an attempt to appear smart in an attempt to make his rant more favourable. Twinking is dead, some take loner to accept it than others, if the guys are romping all over 60 capped bg’s in exploited gear screenshot, video and report them.
 
I think if you look at the responses to my posts, the nuanced and implicit question I was asking has more of an answer. The difference between how humans socialize digitally and in real life seems to be remarkably different when, in fact, given the amount of digital socialization we do, it ought to be comparable.

The responses to my posts for the most part miss the nuance and are representative of a sociopathic mindset. Imagine the question "Should people be allowed to smoke in public?" and then the response that is often given, "Why not? Its a free country." This kind of response - ignorant of rules and laws, socially or legally - is primary in a world, in this case digital, where nuance is absent and complexity is ignored.

Now you see my predicament. And perhaps you see why there are two distinct sides in the twink 60 debate. We might call them the Dems and the Trumpers. The first means well and has its share of dogmatism, but conceptualizes nuance. The latter is more like trying to babysit Jeffrey Dahmer.

If you're interested in the real questions here, reread the posts and try to understand the nuance. If you're not, then my guess is that you are part of the problem and the obstacle.

As much as we participate now in digital socializing, it makes sense to consider whether we attempt to consider a real social ethics inside the simulacra. If not to fix the problems inherent in the xpac for twinks (and there are plenty) but to get out of a digitized sociopathy that, most likely, effects a tangible social life.
I guess the first thing to say is this: Most of the dumb comments on here miss that there is a question mark after the title. That means something.
 
Apex non ranked is more sweaty than ranked half the time. Everyone's just going for 20 bomb badges and 4k badges.
Well it's been a while since I played, but unless they changed the matchmaking that's probably because the game considers you good enough to put you in with all the try-hards. Try making a new account and see how bad everyone is until you hit rank 10 or so. It's really bad if you are say in the top 30% or so... there's not enough god tier players to form their own games, so it just feeds all the "pretty good" players to them in a non stop loop of misery. This actually results in people who are decent at the game having a worse k:d ratio than the noobs who just get to fight amongst themselves.
 
Well it's been a while since I played, but unless they changed the matchmaking that's probably because the game considers you good enough to put you in with all the try-hards. Try making a new account and see how bad everyone is until you hit rank 10 or so. It's really bad if you are say in the top 30% or so... there's not enough god tier players to form their own games, so it just feeds all the "pretty good" players to them in a non stop loop of misery. This actually results in people who are decent at the game having a worse k:d ratio than the noobs who just get to fight amongst themselves.
I have a level like 40 "smurf" account. Even in norms its very common to see diamond/master/pred sky dive trails. Half the time the champion squad has a masters. It's no secret that the matchmaking is broken in that regard. You got two options... either bitch about that being the problem. Or give your nuts a tug and start taking those fights. You're only going to get better if you constantly verse players who are better than you. Learn from your mistakes, etc.
 
I guess the first thing to say is this: Most of the dumb comments on here miss that there is a question mark after the title. That means something.

dya think when the matrix came out, tons of freshmen went to their philosophy classes and tried to blow their professors' minds about how THIS MIGHT NOT ALL BE REAL?
the responses you're getting aren't coming from ignorance, they're coming from exhaustion on the subject from people that have seen it discussed many, many times before, and there being no definite answers anyway.
 
In all honesty, this kind of statement/question is a valid one for more or less everything in life in varying levels.
Take sports for example. How many of them aren't plagued with rigged outcomes via bribing ? Even in a lighter tone to say so, there is always players ignoring the
rule, wounding the opposition and whatnot.
Do you believe working environments are safe from social ethics or lack thereof in that case ?

We are free from our basics needs nowadays. By this I mean that living in rich countries means in most cases you'll have no hunger, thirst, fear of outside contingencies (animals, weather, ...). On top of that, we tend to try to identify to our heroes, be they superheroes, stars (singers, actors, ...) or huge sports players (This is cliché but fairly accurate at least for the 12-25 years old) and aim higher while forgetting how we came to it. In history, great names were adored, not imitated. We think of us as better than we are in general when we don't go the opposite way and get all depressed about not being "that good" (although even these people also think highlier of them than they believe). A lot of people (or at least I hope so) don't care but they express themselves less and are seen as a minority. (Btw I'm not shitting on real depressed people here, just those claiming to be)
All this implies we have more trouble understanding stakes in general. We don't care. How many times, when people have to follow a simple but annoying law/ethic rule, they just don't because they either are impatient (ignoring road signs) or think it'll have no repercussion. When people start losing touch with reality they leave those rules to others. We all left reality a little bit, humanity created new ones in its time. Like I said, we became "better?" with time and technology, going ever further from what we were before. It's not new but this process also generates hubris. People have more and more control over their lives, not having to worry about food, water, shelter, walking to go to point x, ... More automatisation frees even more of our time and energy. In the end we want more and don't want to bother with rules/ethics more than we do with anything else.
Also we don't feel like following ethics while "Hey other people don't, why should I ?". It would mean you hamper yourself. We always follow others in some way, it's normal.

My point is : we are now wanting to simplify everything, not bother with adapting to others that may not have the opportunities we had : having a specific formation, ease to get into workout and get aaaaabs (or here having the GF'ed enchants idk).

Yeeep, I way overthinked this sorry ;) . Look @maraki , the man @fungchewuchi said it, all of that's been said. It will be said in a lot of things in life, only with different context. Get used to it, there's no real true good answer, it's more or less a philosophic question at this point. You'd better stop creating threads, you waste your and our time now, you have answers, now make your own with all these. I doubt anybody here could give a definitive explanation not do I think I did. As @Leek said, let's not pretend we are any social experts, mate I'm a future small farmer in France's countryside, I don't know shit about the world. At least I hope you'll stop trying to make people here argue about a subject already milked out.
Peace
 
you could've manifested a good conversation/thread, you messed up when you assigned people to negative tags based off their beliefs, making people feel like they're being attacked (they were) and respond in defense without dealing with the conversation you wanted to have.

this is assuming you wanted to have a benefitial conversation and not just bait people into arguing and trollolol, it's probably the latter

what am i doing here Cryge
 
Im confused how as a twink you "pay more" to get more gear. There are some small benefits to spending real money, like xfers and AH gear, but because that is such a small part of DF 60s, I feel like I'm missing something and I'd love to hear where I can buy stuff. Because i would do it.

That's because WoW isn't (yet) a pay to win game, because western audiences largely reject pay to win. Spending real-world money in game does give an advantage but it's not an overwhelming advantage like eastern MMOs where you simply cannot compete without spending real world money. Granted, it's subjective to your frame work. Blizzard does not consider WoW a free-to-play game. The Trial Account in Blizzard's view simply a device to give new players a chance to familiarize themselves with the game before they decide to make a purchase (and don't get me started on what a failure it is for that purpose).

The players turned that free trial into a game in its own right and up until a few months before Dragon Flight dropped it really was. Now however, it is extremely difficult to succeed as a trial account. Pay $15 a month and you can get to 29 and you will dominate the bracket (although for some reason Blizzard doesn't seem to really want you doing that either). So where once there was a justification for considering WoW a genuine free-to-play game where the free player could do well in their bracket now the 20s bracket is pretty much pay to win.

But from Blizzard's perspective the game is and always has been pay-to-play. You're not supposed to be playing it for free and you're certainly not supposed to be curb stomping levellers with your lowly trial-account toon. You pay for the privilege of playing the game and how well you do once you've paid is up to you. Things like boosters aren't pay to win because all they do is reduce the amount of time it takes you to get to where Blizzard considers the real game is, which is End Game. In fact, getting boosted to end game could be argued to put a noob at a disadvantage because they don't gain the game experience. Sure you get to End Game without the tedious levelling but now you're playing with players who have been living in End Game for several expansions.
 
a game w/ a (free) economy is per definition p2w.
you can't stop the rmt.
 
funfact p2w when done right makes a game less, not more unfair.
 
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Why would p2w be bad anyway? Makes no sense to me
It lowers overall quality because of inequality in this specific case (20-29) bracket. Back in cata/mop people tried their hardest to keep things fair between both sides rolling the side that needed help most or rolling weaker classes and watching over the bracket in general, an 'unspoken' code of fairplay for the best quality. P2w if done right isn't that much of a big deal to get things done easier such as speeding up progress saving time and maybe even slight advantages, but this just ain't it. The gap is too big between 20s and 29 resulting in a decline in quality of pvp. Sadly most of the bgs nowadays are onesided based on wich side is strongest rather than wich team is more skilled. People quit games left and right and ques do get punished somewhat for it. No one seems to care that much anymore as long as they can play the big man. In the end winning became more important than good competition. Can you blame them really? It is hard to resist that cake having advantages over someone else. The game as of now is just designed this way but its up to the people to care enough.
 
It lowers overall quality because of inequality in this specific case (20-29) bracket. Back in cata/mop people tried their hardest to keep things fair between both sides rolling the side that needed help most or rolling weaker classes and watching over the bracket in general, an 'unspoken' code of fairplay for the best quality. P2w if done right isn't that much of a big deal to get things done easier such as speeding up progress saving time and maybe even slight advantages, but this just ain't it. The gap is too big between 20s and 29 resulting in a decline in quality of pvp. Sadly most of the bgs nowadays are onesided based on wich side is strongest rather than wich team is more skilled. People quit games left and right and ques do get punished somewhat for it. No one seems to care that much anymore as long as they can play the big man. In the end winning became more important than good competition. Can you blame them really? It is hard to resist that cake having advantages over someone else. The game as of now is just designed this way but its up to the people to care enough.
None of this is related to paying though. Simply buying a token doesn't bring imbalance to the 20/29 bracket.
 
Why would p2w be bad anyway? Makes no sense to me
being able to win by paying devalidates x game systems that you use in order to win and also devalidates your skill in game that you would use to win. it turns the game into an arms race of whales, playerbase starts leaving when they cant compete with whales, new players come into game and leave because of whales, this spirals until game dies.
funfact p2w when done right makes a game less, not more unfair.
fair = game is balanced, everybody has a (close to) equal chance of winning x game
p2w gives you advantage, causing the game to not be balanced and lowering the chances of your opponents of winning while rising your chances of winning
making it unfair

p2w that isn't unfair isn't p2w, its cosmetics. p2w = pay to win, if you aren't increasing your chances of winning it isn't pay 2 win
 
You've gotta rewind a bit and define what P2W actually means... ofc in an MMO "winning" is also defined loosely as well.

There's Paying for Enhancement, or efficiency, which is what Sel is mentioning, such as XP boosts or catch up mechanics.

Then there's Paying for Advantage, in gear or abilities, in which the things you pay for, give you an unfair advantage over those that don't pay.

The prior is "p2w done right"

Going back to OP's main point though... is essentially GF gear vs non GF gear and I've always been on team "as long as that GF gear isnt insanely OP, I don't care" If you're getting stomped in a level 60 bracket because their's shitters crutching on OP GF gear... move to a different bracket, or game... "but I don't want to" then tough, deal with it. We had to deal with hunters being OP in SL20s. No amount of "ethics" talk is going to change people's minds on how they want to play the game.
 
You've gotta rewind a bit and define what P2W actually means... ofc in an MMO "winning" is also defined loosely as well.

There's Paying for Enhancement, or efficiency, which is what Sel is mentioning, such as XP boosts or catch up mechanics.

Then there's Paying for Advantage, in gear or abilities, in which the things you pay for, give you an unfair advantage over those that don't pay.

The prior is "p2w done right"

Going back to OP's main point though... is essentially GF gear vs non GF gear and I've always been on team "as long as that GF gear isnt insanely OP, I don't care" If you're getting stomped in a level 60 bracket because their's shitters crutching on OP GF gear... move to a different bracket, or game... "but I don't want to" then tough, deal with it. We had to deal with hunters being OP in SL20s. No amount of "ethics" talk is going to change people's minds on how they want to play the game.
i would argue that, per definition, your example of paying for enhancement (xp boosts, catch up mechanics) wouldn't be pay 2 win as you aren't gaining an advantage over other people. p2w = pay 2 win, not pay 4 convenience.
 
ayo wtf wdym man i like winning @ah, nothin' better than beatin' up on fools like glance, 'yo! Madge :FrogeTorch:
 

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