Chops
Soccer Dad
you know how i know you didnt click the link?
Should I keep over TW weapon?
- Thread starter chairbaby
- Start date
BudLightning
Member
ITT: Some people need a little extra hand holding
chairbaby
Member
maybe if you linked anything worth clicking, I would, such as these "same posts" that get posted 3-4 times a day or any other guide with this information, but good day, have fun protecting these forums brother!
chairbaby
Member
Yea, some people do, thats good that you dont!
Rahn
Member
This thread does continue to be amusing because the three year old thread is out of date to begin with, since it refers to https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=13505/runeblade-of-baron-rivendare which has a % based movement speed increase, where as retail currently uses https://www.wowhead.com/item=13505/runeblade-of-baron-rivendare which has a +speed increase.
Which makes that thread misleading as to one of it's premises when it comes to the present day. The thing with both that thread and Beti's is that the classic minor speed enchant isn't necessarily the go to enchant in all cases. Since Rivendare's sword was changed, level 11 warriors are free to use whatever boot enchant they want if they don't use the 2% speed on cloaks; because they're not going to taking Fast Footwork over War Machine.
And honestly considering how limited (and frankly out of date) the movement speed information is, and how long it took anyone to point to an outdated thread on the subject; the people here continuing to hammer on "Find an old thread" point are kinda petty. I certainly appreciate the people finally gathering some info on the subject though, gives me some hope past the cynical types who care about how the front page looks over being able to get up to date information easily.
Which makes that thread misleading as to one of it's premises when it comes to the present day. The thing with both that thread and Beti's is that the classic minor speed enchant isn't necessarily the go to enchant in all cases. Since Rivendare's sword was changed, level 11 warriors are free to use whatever boot enchant they want if they don't use the 2% speed on cloaks; because they're not going to taking Fast Footwork over War Machine.
And honestly considering how limited (and frankly out of date) the movement speed information is, and how long it took anyone to point to an outdated thread on the subject; the people here continuing to hammer on "Find an old thread" point are kinda petty. I certainly appreciate the people finally gathering some info on the subject though, gives me some hope past the cynical types who care about how the front page looks over being able to get up to date information easily.
Chops
Soccer Dad
the guide you're looking for is basic math. Like I dont know how else to explain to you that there's not a specific guide for "how many procs do i need to replace a SL gem" because its literally just 2nd grade math. Its looking at your character sheet, going "oh, each SL gem gives me like 11 speed rating. Guess I'd need 11 total speed from procs to replace a gem. I got 3 from this weapon, guess I need 8 more". Thats just math, man.
If you need that spelled out in a guide, Im shocked you can walk and breathe at the same time. This isnt even about being new and getting picked on over some arcane forum faux pas by a churlish elder. Its you being too lazy and incurious to even open your character sheet to look at your stats and blaming somebody else for not writing a guide on how to do that.
I guess secondary to the "please look through threads before posting new ones" thing isnt necessarily that old threads have all the most correct and up-to-date information but that these threads will help teach you how to think about your toon (and its also just good forum etiquette). Knowing *how* to think about your toon, how stats works, how they affect other stats, etc isnt something anyone just knows. It's learned, over time, by reading and experimenting and reading about other people experimenting. It means actually being curious and thoughtful and respecting the time and effort of others in this community enough to read what they write.
If you think its too hard to find information, you are cordially invited to write up any kind of guide you like, or even consolidate guides into a "thread of useful guides" and staff here will happily pin it to the top of the 10s forum. You seem to have a great grasp on movement speed for 10s/11s. Thatd be useful! I'll even volunteer to help you craft the thread, I've done a very similar one myself that (gonna pat myself on the back here) was incredibly useful and well received. That said, I know Betis guide is thoroughly comprehensive and people dont even read that. I'm not sure how much easier you can make information to find and people are still gonna gripe that you didnt explain basic addition in your twinking guide
Rahn
Member
*I* made an attempt to search for the information his behalf. Didn't find it.
Someone else made an attempt to find the information. They turned up an ancient out of date thread, which wouldn't have helped cause the information wasn't there either.
Ragging on him going "Duuuurrr use the search tool" when the information didn't exist? Classy.
Ragging on him being "Do the math" when he didn't have a firm grasp on what the speed rating was doing? Again, classy.
The OP was on the right track to begin with, that he can drop a SL gem because 49% is the cap and recognized that the +speed proc was being wasted. He demonstrated that he knew *something* already, but you treat him as a braindead person who put in zero effort. The problem was he didn't actually know what the rating cap was, and everyone keeps talking about percentages. I don't know how much %speed 3 speed rating is, and based on the old thread +3 speed at 0 speed rating is a different than +3 speed at 70 rating anyways. So the useful information of "You need 76 speed rating to hit cap" did not exist on this forum until I actually posted to the effect, and you people would continue to do the whole "Look for the relevant thread" without anyone actually linking to the relevant thread... because that thread doesn't appear to exist does it? I mean sure it's funny in a way, but is this really the kind of outcome you're aiming for?
If this is all "Do your own research" then why on earth does this place even exist to begin with? Especially when you ask a question and the default response is "Google it". At that point this place might as well be read-only.
I for one appreciate all of the guides that exist here, but know what? A lot of them are a PAIN to find, even when I've stumbled across them once and know they exist. What you're all doing is when someone asks a question you point them towards a library and go "The answer is in there." And when you get to said library and go to the information booth, you're met with another person going "Look for it yourself, the shelves are clearly labeled" Which we know isn't the case cause if you go to the "Guides" forum (where you'd think you'd find useful information), the top stickied guide is a fishing guide from 2013!
Seriously the more I dig into this mess, the more I realize that it's a miracle that anyone can find anything at all considering how the forums are laid out and how unhelpful people are being. It's of little wonder why people default to Beti's guide as the main twinking reference, cause getting information out of here certainly isn't fun.
Someone else made an attempt to find the information. They turned up an ancient out of date thread, which wouldn't have helped cause the information wasn't there either.
Ragging on him going "Duuuurrr use the search tool" when the information didn't exist? Classy.
Ragging on him being "Do the math" when he didn't have a firm grasp on what the speed rating was doing? Again, classy.
The OP was on the right track to begin with, that he can drop a SL gem because 49% is the cap and recognized that the +speed proc was being wasted. He demonstrated that he knew *something* already, but you treat him as a braindead person who put in zero effort. The problem was he didn't actually know what the rating cap was, and everyone keeps talking about percentages. I don't know how much %speed 3 speed rating is, and based on the old thread +3 speed at 0 speed rating is a different than +3 speed at 70 rating anyways. So the useful information of "You need 76 speed rating to hit cap" did not exist on this forum until I actually posted to the effect, and you people would continue to do the whole "Look for the relevant thread" without anyone actually linking to the relevant thread... because that thread doesn't appear to exist does it? I mean sure it's funny in a way, but is this really the kind of outcome you're aiming for?
If this is all "Do your own research" then why on earth does this place even exist to begin with? Especially when you ask a question and the default response is "Google it". At that point this place might as well be read-only.
I for one appreciate all of the guides that exist here, but know what? A lot of them are a PAIN to find, even when I've stumbled across them once and know they exist. What you're all doing is when someone asks a question you point them towards a library and go "The answer is in there." And when you get to said library and go to the information booth, you're met with another person going "Look for it yourself, the shelves are clearly labeled" Which we know isn't the case cause if you go to the "Guides" forum (where you'd think you'd find useful information), the top stickied guide is a fishing guide from 2013!
Seriously the more I dig into this mess, the more I realize that it's a miracle that anyone can find anything at all considering how the forums are laid out and how unhelpful people are being. It's of little wonder why people default to Beti's guide as the main twinking reference, cause getting information out of here certainly isn't fun.
Chops
Soccer Dad
You don't care enough to make a basic effort to open your character pane and take a piece of gear off to see how much stat a gem gives, but you'll come whine at people for not explicitly telling you exactly how much stat you need? Classy.
It would be awesome if they did! But clearly people will read it but not actually read it. That's the problem with this whole thread. A dude claims to have read a guide they either didn't actually read or refused to apply the information they learned to their character with 5 seconds of thought.
If people actually read it, most of these redundant threads wouldn't exist
I'd actually very much like to help people! But apparently asking people to make a bare minimum effort to learn about their toons makes me a meanyhead
Rahn
Member
No one was going to explicitly tell him anything cause it seems like none of you knew the answer in the first place, and none of you actually bothered to do the work. *I* ended up doing that work. You know, the kinda work that you people in theory have been doing in this place for years that supposedly all of you know off the top of your head? I would think the seasoned veterans of this place would be a bit more helpful.
I mean what's being proved here? All that needed to be done was "I need info", "Here's a link", "Thanks" the end.
Or heaven forbid "I need info", "I don't know, I'll try to find out."
Instead it's been "I need info.", *insert sarcastic non-helpful response*, "I tried, I wasn't able to find it", "lulz, either you're lazy or dumb."
What's more damning is that even if you knew, the implication is you would refuse to do so; why? Because they didn't prove their worth? For my part I don't like being that cynical. If you're going to be helpful, be helpful; don't say your past self would have been in retrospect given a different condition.
Chops
Soccer Dad
This might be the disconnect
I don't know this stuff off the top of my head. I doubt many people do. I'd have to look it up. I'd have to log into the game, hop on a toon, check stat values, search up some threads, double check myself...
And if that's gotta be done, it should be done by the person with the question first. I'm just doing the basic stuff. There's nothing fancy. It's literally step one of "wonder how this works"
Nobody is withholding information and in this particular instance all the information was provided! It's not that secrets are being kept, it's that the information is being presented and people are refusing to look at it.
Rahn
Member
Know what's aggravating?
I've been engaging in this thread honestly and to the best of my ability, while multiple people decided cynicism, and sarcasm was the way to go.
If you want to be helpful, be helpful.
If you don't know, say you don't know.
If it's not a secret, then don't pretend it is.
I assumed the OP asked in good faith, I answered as such. I didn't demand or expect anything. Personally I think the sheer act of registering an account and making a post is enough of a demonstration of effort, and maybe you think that bar is too low; but if I have information that can help I have zero issue of sharing it. Why? Cause it'll make the other person's day better, I don't exactly need much more of a reason past that.
Again I reiterate that I appreciate the other people who engaged with the OP (and myself) honestly, sharing the info that they themselves had access to. The peanut gallery going "I don't respect the OP, cause I think he's lazy" has been no help at all.
I've been engaging in this thread honestly and to the best of my ability, while multiple people decided cynicism, and sarcasm was the way to go.
If you want to be helpful, be helpful.
If you don't know, say you don't know.
If it's not a secret, then don't pretend it is.
I assumed the OP asked in good faith, I answered as such. I didn't demand or expect anything. Personally I think the sheer act of registering an account and making a post is enough of a demonstration of effort, and maybe you think that bar is too low; but if I have information that can help I have zero issue of sharing it. Why? Cause it'll make the other person's day better, I don't exactly need much more of a reason past that.
Again I reiterate that I appreciate the other people who engaged with the OP (and myself) honestly, sharing the info that they themselves had access to. The peanut gallery going "I don't respect the OP, cause I think he's lazy" has been no help at all.
Chops
Soccer Dad
You did. And then op completely ignored your post and asked you to spell out the math for him. again.
Nobody has even pretended this shit is secret. The frustration is that op claimed to have read the relevant guide(s) and it was very clear he either hadn't or simply had refused to apply that knowledge to his own situation
If you're going to do that, I'm going to be frustrated when you ask questions that are answered in the guide you claim to have read. I don't know what else to tell you other than it's genuinely fucking annoying for people to demand answers they already have
Rahn
Member
Ignored it or misunderstood it? Cause I don't think he was trolling (which I can't say the same for others in this thread)
From the get go you've engaged with this thread with nothing but negativity, so from an annoyance stand point I find you far more annoying than the OP; because you're just bringing down what I feel is an other wise pretty productive thread. I'm still considering putting together a somewhat comprehensive movement speed guide despite your attitude. Why? Because I assume the OP misunderstood the situation, which is what a guide would be helpful for; heck it would probably be useful for me to future reference, or other people to know in general. I'm not carrying a chip on my shoulder over this, and this whole thread seem to be proof positive that the information is lacking in this area specifically, since it seems a lot of people are relying on assumptions from before SL gems became ilvl 10 requirement, and who knows how many item/class/spec changes since then.
The excuse of "But it's easy to figure out" isn't much of an excuse, because pretty much everything about twinking fits in that category to being with. Yet despite that, due to the sheer vast amount of "easy to figure out" involved; people get things wrong regardless. I just raise my eyebrow at the level of contempt and negativity that's been presented thus far.
I know nothing about the OP or their capability of working through a math problem or grasp abstract concepts. He got confused, so I added more information to help alleviate the confusion, then the confusion lifted; a good result don't you think? In the spirt of twinking, I want to min/max being helpful; which is why there's a good chance I'll write a guide to be helpful in regards to this subject of "movement speed". That way you all will actually have a link you can point at, instead of saying "go look for other threads on this topic" and then the only result is someone bringing up a thread from 3 years ago.
Besides if such question are so common, and it aggravates so many people so often; then why don't you update your FAQ? If you gave up on it, that's fine; which opens up the question of why doesn't someone else create a more up to date one? I suppose I can hazard some guesses considering how this thread has been going.
Chops
Soccer Dad
I want you to read that thread. Not just the OP. Get less than 2 pages in an watch people ask questions answered in the FAQ
I did the work. And I burned out. I gave it 5 years but I have very little patience for people who cannot or will not read the resources they are provided. That's a non starter for me.
Why doesn't someone pick it up? Because people don't read guides. You can put all the work into it and people are going to not read it and gripe at you for not answering their questions... despite you writing a guide that answered their questions
Seriously, read that whole thread and ask yourself if you're genuinely willing to help people that fucking committed to being ignorant.
"Oh why don't you just help them?"
Because I need to know that when I mention things like stat values, we're talking to someone who has at least opened their character pane. I need to know that we're not starting at "this is a number. You can combine numbers to get bigger numbers" because if we've got to start there, that's beyond the scope of this forum and my patience.
Maybe that makes my cynical but I like to think it means I'm optimistic. I've got expectations of people despite decades of experience that I shouldn't. I still hope that people care. To me, it's cynical to just assume nobody has any interest or curiosity about their hobbies.
Rahn
Member
Just because people start asking questions about stuff you've answered doesn't magically mean no one at all did the work, which is indeed the cynical way of looking at it.
For every 1 person who doesn't get it, maybe 10 people did; used the information and went on their merry way without you none the wiser. Maybe it will take 1000 people looking and using it before you get 1 person to thank you for your effort, while in that same span you end up with 10 asking 'dumb' questions. It's all speculation by I'd wager far more people were helped than those who were 'lazy' and needed to be spoonfed.
So what if someone still asks for help regardless of your efforts? Ever ponder why? I don't think the reason is "because they're trolling me" and maybe the reason is "Because they're lazy" but more likely the answer is "Despite your best efforts, I'm still confused." but at the end of the day they're still going to have to farm the gear and build their character up themselves, twinking needs that bare minimum effort; no one is handing out free twinked out characters to people, one way or another they have to put it to together. So there's no way to 100% lazy this process.
Like it or not there's simply way too much information, so much so that your own FAQ turns into a paralysis of choice: No one knows were to start. We both know that none of this is exactly complicated, but a wall of information no matter how simple is still a wall; and if that wall happens to have dozens of doors, you're inevitably going to be asked "Which door do I pick?" Which is why when it comes to choices presented to people, you have to offer 3-4 options, past that point people will start to defer to others to make the choice for them.
The way I see it your guide basically double dipped as a thread repository and a FAQ, but it didn't do the FAQ part that well. It probably would have worked better as simply a central hub for useful threads (Which would be still useful as is if the links of when the guides were written, yes you can click inside to find the original post date, but human behavior). From my personal experience I've used that FAQ to find information in the past, but honestly until I searched it up again today it didn't even occur to me that it was an FAQ in the first place; which would probably put me in the same category as everyone else asking questions (except I never needed to).
I think an FAQ should be a simple as possible to point people in the right direction. People at the end of the day will go the wrong way that can't be helped, but far more people will find their way provided decent enough information.
Besides that, some people's questions aren't looking for direction, but rather depth, nuance, context, reassurance, and/or confirmation. I certainly can't blame people looking for confirmation on things because the state of twinking has changed over the years and there's a lot of outdated information.
For every 1 person who doesn't get it, maybe 10 people did; used the information and went on their merry way without you none the wiser. Maybe it will take 1000 people looking and using it before you get 1 person to thank you for your effort, while in that same span you end up with 10 asking 'dumb' questions. It's all speculation by I'd wager far more people were helped than those who were 'lazy' and needed to be spoonfed.
So what if someone still asks for help regardless of your efforts? Ever ponder why? I don't think the reason is "because they're trolling me" and maybe the reason is "Because they're lazy" but more likely the answer is "Despite your best efforts, I'm still confused." but at the end of the day they're still going to have to farm the gear and build their character up themselves, twinking needs that bare minimum effort; no one is handing out free twinked out characters to people, one way or another they have to put it to together. So there's no way to 100% lazy this process.
Like it or not there's simply way too much information, so much so that your own FAQ turns into a paralysis of choice: No one knows were to start. We both know that none of this is exactly complicated, but a wall of information no matter how simple is still a wall; and if that wall happens to have dozens of doors, you're inevitably going to be asked "Which door do I pick?" Which is why when it comes to choices presented to people, you have to offer 3-4 options, past that point people will start to defer to others to make the choice for them.
The way I see it your guide basically double dipped as a thread repository and a FAQ, but it didn't do the FAQ part that well. It probably would have worked better as simply a central hub for useful threads (Which would be still useful as is if the links of when the guides were written, yes you can click inside to find the original post date, but human behavior). From my personal experience I've used that FAQ to find information in the past, but honestly until I searched it up again today it didn't even occur to me that it was an FAQ in the first place; which would probably put me in the same category as everyone else asking questions (except I never needed to).
I think an FAQ should be a simple as possible to point people in the right direction. People at the end of the day will go the wrong way that can't be helped, but far more people will find their way provided decent enough information.
Besides that, some people's questions aren't looking for direction, but rather depth, nuance, context, reassurance, and/or confirmation. I certainly can't blame people looking for confirmation on things because the state of twinking has changed over the years and there's a lot of outdated information.
Chops
Soccer Dad
I eagerly await you showing me how it's done then
drake178
Member
Hey, can I pile on too? I mean, I'm fully aware that picking on each other is neither constructive nor helpful, but oh boy, does it look fun. I want some too!
@chairbaby: While playing World of Warcraft, you may have noticed that hovering your mouse over a user interface element or an object in the world brings up some window with some text in it. This is called a "tooltip", and it is designed to provide extra information about the thing that the mouse pointer is over. The character panel is no different, and you will find that opening it, and hovering your mouse over the "Speed" statistic will not only give you your overall movement speed, in %, with a precision of two decimal places (this may be new for others too?), but it also shows your total "Speed Rating".
This is the basic curiosity that Chops was likely expecting of you. Because from here, when you unequip something with Speed on it, and see the rating change, and the speed value change, you probably would have figured out every single thing that you asked about in the original post -- from the weapon proc counting towards speed rating, through how much rating a Shadowlands gem gives, all the way down to how much more rating besides the weapon you would need to get back to where you were (not to mention possibly being able to pinpoint the exact rating you need for that 49% value that you did know about).
If you just did this one basic thing: hover over speed on your character sheet, this thread would likely not exist at all, for better or for worse. Unless, of course, you were just trying to say "Hey guys, I've got a speed proc on this axe, am I cool or what?", in which case, I'd like to inform you, that there is actually a thread specifically for that kind of stuff. I'll even link it for you, here: What did you loot today?=).
@Chops: did you look at the results of that Google search before closing the tab/window? None of those results would have been any useful whatsoever in explaining that "Speed Rating converts to % Speed similar to how secondary stats convert to their % values". It's actually pretty ironic, and I at least find it absolutely hilarious. Not even the warcraft wiki says this simple sentence in a place where someone specifically looking for it would find it. Of course, mousing over the Speed stat on the character sheet makes such an explanation generally unnecessary, but still...
@Rahn: I think the reasons these numbers are not written down into a guide are that: 1) they are different for every level, 2) they are very easy to check and figure out for any given level just by looking at the character panel and equipping/unequipping stuff, and 3) even if you do know how much rating you need, you have absolutely no control over the loot procs you get -- which makes the number pretty much meaningless until you have gear to shuffle around.
In any case, if you do want to write a guide/faq about speed (which I'd probably offer to chip in with too), you may want to include the fact that speed rating has diminishing returns. I don't think this comes into play that much at the lower levels where a few gems besides the doublets will cap you, and for removing each one you're likely always fiddling with max DR (40% value) already, but this can matter at higher levels. At the same time, finding the breakpoints for each level (besides maybe the most popular ones) is probably more hassle than it's worth.
PS: @chairbaby: I'm sorry, but this:
@chairbaby: While playing World of Warcraft, you may have noticed that hovering your mouse over a user interface element or an object in the world brings up some window with some text in it. This is called a "tooltip", and it is designed to provide extra information about the thing that the mouse pointer is over. The character panel is no different, and you will find that opening it, and hovering your mouse over the "Speed" statistic will not only give you your overall movement speed, in %, with a precision of two decimal places (this may be new for others too?), but it also shows your total "Speed Rating".
This is the basic curiosity that Chops was likely expecting of you. Because from here, when you unequip something with Speed on it, and see the rating change, and the speed value change, you probably would have figured out every single thing that you asked about in the original post -- from the weapon proc counting towards speed rating, through how much rating a Shadowlands gem gives, all the way down to how much more rating besides the weapon you would need to get back to where you were (not to mention possibly being able to pinpoint the exact rating you need for that 49% value that you did know about).
If you just did this one basic thing: hover over speed on your character sheet, this thread would likely not exist at all, for better or for worse. Unless, of course, you were just trying to say "Hey guys, I've got a speed proc on this axe, am I cool or what?", in which case, I'd like to inform you, that there is actually a thread specifically for that kind of stuff. I'll even link it for you, here: What did you loot today?=).
@Chops: did you look at the results of that Google search before closing the tab/window? None of those results would have been any useful whatsoever in explaining that "Speed Rating converts to % Speed similar to how secondary stats convert to their % values". It's actually pretty ironic, and I at least find it absolutely hilarious. Not even the warcraft wiki says this simple sentence in a place where someone specifically looking for it would find it. Of course, mousing over the Speed stat on the character sheet makes such an explanation generally unnecessary, but still...
@Rahn: I think the reasons these numbers are not written down into a guide are that: 1) they are different for every level, 2) they are very easy to check and figure out for any given level just by looking at the character panel and equipping/unequipping stuff, and 3) even if you do know how much rating you need, you have absolutely no control over the loot procs you get -- which makes the number pretty much meaningless until you have gear to shuffle around.
In any case, if you do want to write a guide/faq about speed (which I'd probably offer to chip in with too), you may want to include the fact that speed rating has diminishing returns. I don't think this comes into play that much at the lower levels where a few gems besides the doublets will cap you, and for removing each one you're likely always fiddling with max DR (40% value) already, but this can matter at higher levels. At the same time, finding the breakpoints for each level (besides maybe the most popular ones) is probably more hassle than it's worth.
PS: @chairbaby: I'm sorry, but this:
is pure arrogance. I don't think any respectable person would/should react like this to the criticism you got on a public forum. Just mentioning it because you're "new to this".again, im new to this, trying to learn, dont wanna help? dont comment
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