Should I keep over TW weapon?

[Dev]

I'm not one who uses forums much, and as a result I'm not proficient in navigating them. That said, I realize it's a, "me" problem. Over the years I've been able to get a wealth of knowledge from these posts, the thing is I had to be willing to dig for it. It took time and patience, but eventually I found helpful information. Even when I didn't know what I was looking for, I eventually got the idea.

As an example, I recently posted a question that had already been answered by DoByG's guide (now updated). It's easier to ask a question than it is to check and see whether existing information has been updated. Sometimes it's worth asking, but in cases like that, the information is already readily there if you look (which I didn't).

 

[toskosa]

So basically speed proc on that weapon is useless unless i stack more speed items? or like you said, if they end up getting nerfed?

Speed is capped at 49%, if you are at 49% without this weapon equipeed then yeah the speed proc is useless, you should be getting speed capped from other sources then weapons atm anyway since twing weapons are such a high damage increase.

 

[Chops]

I understand the cap is 49%, but when do I switch those gems for other gems? And again, I did read threads, and guides, but havent found anything with this specific information, or haven't found it I guess?

SL gems give you X rating. You replace one when you get enough speed procs on gear to equal X. Or if gems currently have you a bit over cap, you replace it when gear procs bring you up to cap without a gem. Or, if you dont care about cap, you replace them when you feel like more damage is worth sacrificing some run speed.

sorry theres not a specific guide titled "how to know if you should replace a SL gem if you get a speed proc on an otherwise undesirable weapon that may actually become desirable in the future if current PTR changes go live" but i just broke out an abacus and did some long division and got the answer anyway.

 

[Rahn]

I tried searching for the information, and as far as I can tell the information simply doesn't exist, all anyone ever says is 49% is the cap; and leaves it at that.

So I'll actually do the work, and who knows; maybe this information will magically find itself on to thread where this information is 'supposed' to exist in the first place.

Level 11 speed cap is 76 rating.
6 SL gems provides 80.
5 SL gems provides 67.
So you need 9 speed rating from procs to drop the first SL gem.
22 speed rating from your gear if you want to drop the second.
35 speed rating to drop a third, which might be barely possible while keeping optimal stats; but would require every piece of gear you have to proc speed.

+speed procs are either 2 or 3 depending on the slot, so it works out to:
3-4 speed procs to drop the first SL gem.
8+ speed procs to drop a second SL gem.

 

[Chops]

hell yes, this is the good stuff

maybe this information will magically find itself on to thread where this information is 'supposed' to exist in the first place.

Might be useful for an enterprising lvl 10/11 player frustrated with the current dearth of easily accessible and clearly labeled guides to put together a "speed rating, movement speed and level 10/11 twinks" guide with this kind of information in it

 

[Rahn]

hell yes, this is the good stuff


Might be useful for an enterprising lvl 10/11 player frustrated with the current dearth of easily accessible and clearly labeled guides to put together a "speed rating, movement speed and level 10/11 twinks" guide with this kind of information in it

I might get bored enough to actually do that, since there's a wealth of information on movement speed in general but it's not really in a format that's easily digestible (or understandable). The question at that point is if I would bother going into the weeds and poking at every single class/spec based speed modifier and seeing if it works with only the classic boot enchant or any boot enchant.

I mean you'd think one of the most important stats in regards to low level twinking would be fleshed out more past saying "49% is the cap", but nope! I mean even the information of "Don't use the same SL gem in a piece of gear" is very easy to overlook as is. I don't think that even came up at all when I was doing all sorts of terms in the search bar looking for existing speed rating information on this forum.

 

[chairbaby]

SL gems give you X rating. You replace one when you get enough speed procs on gear to equal X. Or if gems currently have you a bit over cap, you replace it when gear procs bring you up to cap without a gem. Or, if you dont care about cap, you replace them when you feel like more damage is worth sacrificing some run speed.

sorry theres not a specific guide titled "how to know if you should replace a SL gem if you get a speed proc on an otherwise undesirable weapon that may actually become desirable in the future if current PTR changes go live" but i just broke out an abacus and did some long division and got the answer anyway.

What happened to the 3 posts a day about this? Where’d they go?!? Oh right…

But see? how hard was it to answer that

 

[BudLightning]

As a fun fact for @Rahn while we're on a random discussion of speed info:
The "Gift of..*" enchants for cloaks do not provide the secondary stat (Gift of Haste will give you the 2% run speed, but you'll gain 0 haste).

 

[Zly]

Thanks Rahn, good information

Here is info on the actual weapon you asked about. These are good comparison numbers not actual dps. MH dps is worth 5.5, strength is worth 1.1, secondaries are worth .6, offhand dps is worth 1.5 so...
mainhand axe is 4.7dps x 5.5= 25.8 plus 6 str x 1.1 = 6.6 plus 13ss x .6 = 7.8 for a grand total of 40.2
hatebringer is 2.6dps x 5.5 = 14.3 plus 9 str x 1.1 = 9.9 plus 10ss x .6 = 6 for a grand total of 30.2
So for mainhand a tw axe is the clear winner, as Rahn mentioned it gets a little more interesting as an off hand
Offhand tw axe is 4.7dps x 1.5= 7 plus 6 str x 1.1 = 6.6 plus 13ss x .6 = 7.8 for a grand total of 21.4
Offhand hatebringer 2.6dps x 1.5 = 3.9 plus 9 str x 1.1 = 9.9 plus 10ss x .6 = 6 for aa grand total of 19.8
So as an offhand it is close enough that it could be better in some setups

All that said keep your hatebringers, there is a very good chance they could be bis after the patch

 

[Rahn]

Thanks Rahn, good information

Here is info on the actual weapon you asked about. These are good comparison numbers not actual dps. MH dps is worth 5.5, strength is worth 1.1, secondaries are worth .6, offhand dps is worth 1.5 so...
mainhand axe is 4.7dps x 5.5= 25.8 plus 6 str x 1.1 = 6.6 plus 13ss x .6 = 7.8 for a grand total of 40.2
hatebringer is 2.6dps x 5.5 = 14.3 plus 9 str x 1.1 = 9.9 plus 10ss x .6 = 6 for a grand total of 30.2
So for mainhand a tw axe is the clear winner, as Rahn mentioned it gets a little more interesting as an off hand
Offhand tw axe is 4.7dps x 1.5= 7 plus 6 str x 1.1 = 6.6 plus 13ss x .6 = 7.8 for a grand total of 21.4
Offhand hatebringer 2.6dps x 1.5 = 3.9 plus 9 str x 1.1 = 9.9 plus 10ss x .6 = 6 for aa grand total of 19.8
So as an offhand it is close enough that it could be better in some setups

All that said keep your hatebringers, there is a very good chance they could be bis after the patch

Yeah I found that Hatebringer was just a smidge behind a TW weapon in the OH, but since I have a +speed on mine it put it over the top for the purposes of dropping a SL gem. Since dropping a SL gem means getting +2 str. So with your calculations it's kind of bringing the 19.8 up to 22.0 (but not really).

 

[chairbaby]

Yeah I found that Hatebringer was just a smidge behind a TW weapon in the OH, but since I have a +speed on mine it put it over the top for the purposes of dropping a SL gem. Since dropping a SL gem means getting +2 str. So with your calculations it's kind of bringing the 19.8 up to 22.0 (but not really).

Do you have any other speed procs? when i change my SL mastery gem and equip HB w the speed proc i only get 47% speed, am i missing something?

 

[Kaxle]

I can't believe I'm about to link a Glance thread as a reference but https://xpoff.com/threads/in-depth-guide-to-speed-scaling-and-gearing-advices.95925/ combined with the 10/11 specific speed ratings should cover this supposed completely nebulous unexplored topic

I tried searching for the information, and as far as I can tell the information simply doesn't exist, all anyone ever says is 49% is the cap; and leaves it at that.

So I'll actually do the work, and who knows; maybe this information will magically find itself on to thread where this information is 'supposed' to exist in the first place.

Level 11 speed cap is 76 rating.
6 SL gems provides 80.
5 SL gems provides 67.
So you need 9 speed rating from procs to drop the first SL gem.
22 speed rating from your gear if you want to drop the second.
35 speed rating to drop a third, which might be barely possible while keeping optimal stats; but would require every piece of gear you have to proc speed.

+speed procs are either 2 or 3 depending on the slot, so it works out to:
3-4 speed procs to drop the first SL gem.
8+ speed procs to drop a second SL gem.

 

[Rahn]

Do you have any other speed procs? when i change my SL mastery gem and equip HB w the speed proc i only get 47% speed, am i missing something?

You need +9 speed total to drop a SL gem and stay capped. You have +3 from your hatebringer, which means you're +6 short.

On my warrior I have +4 from https://www.wowhead.com/item=13505/runeblade-of-baron-rivendare and another +3 on my legs, and including my own +3 on hatebringer I have +10 speed total. In my case if I get something else to proc +3 speed I can replace my Rivendare with https://www.wowhead.com/item=127520/colossal-skull-clad-cleaver which has more weapon damage and moves my secondary out of versatility (which is the weakest secondary for a warrior)_

 

[Rahn]

I can't believe I'm about to link a Glance thread as a reference but https://xpoff.com/threads/in-depth-guide-to-speed-scaling-and-gearing-advices.95925/ combined with the 10/11 specific speed ratings should cover this supposed completely nebulous unexplored topic

Thankfully level 10-11s don't engage in PvP so don't really have to factor in the whole "How much speed rating do you want for BGs." due to how gear is scaled. That's certainly another whole can of worms that I doubt anyone wants to touch considering the state of PvP currently.

 

[Kaxle]

Thankfully level 10-11s don't engage in PvP so don't really have to factor in the whole "How much speed rating do you want for BGs." due to how gear is scaled. That's certainly another whole can of worms that I doubt anyone wants to touch considering the state of PvP currently.

Yeah your post with the bracket specific numbers essentially replaces that section of the post but the linked thread still collects the the pieces of speed information, previously mentioned as uncollected in this thread, such as the class/enchant/item interactions, speed % vs rating, and how to approach making gear decisions to min max your overall movement speed into one convenient place

 

[chairbaby]

I can't believe I'm about to link a Glance thread as a reference but https://xpoff.com/threads/in-depth-guide-to-speed-scaling-and-gearing-advices.95925/ combined with the 10/11 specific speed ratings should cover this supposed completely nebulous unexplored topic

this is good info, appreciate the link, but how is a new user to these forums supposed to find a post from 3 years ago? Not saying the info wasn’t out there, but it wasn’t easily findable, which is why i had suggested maybe there being a “pinned” section with helpful links like this *shrug*

 

[Chops]

why i had suggested maybe there being a “pinned” section with helpful links like this *shrug*

years ago i created and pinned a "useful threads, read this first" thread

would it shock you to learn people still posted "this is way too much stuff to read just tell me what bis is/gems i need/enchants i need/dungeons to run/etc" when all those questions (and more) were available in the pinned thread of threads?

you want us to believe you would actually read this stuff but the very question you opened this thread with was answered in a guide you claimed to have read. You just had to do math to get to the answer... which it apparently took me pointing out for you to realize.

 

[chairbaby]

years ago i created and pinned a "useful threads, read this first" thread

would it shock you to learn people still posted "this is way too much stuff to read just tell me what bis is/gems i need/enchants i need/dungeons to run/etc" when all those questions (and more) were available in the pinned thread of threads?

you want us to believe you would actually read this stuff but the very question you opened this thread with was answered in a guide you claimed to have read. You just had to do math to get to the answer... which it apparently took me pointing out for you to realize.

Where in the Beti guide does it talk about anything regarding when to replace SL gems? Please enlighten me, as I did not see that information, I saw that 49% was the cap, but no one place on that guide did it provide the math, or even the formula?

And also, you didnt make me realize the math was needed, the first person who helped me made me realize that, but sure you help so much protecting these forums! Good job!

 

[Chops]

but no one place on that guide did it provide the math, or even the formula?

Its right here

 

[chairbaby]

Its right here

"You can also use speed rating enchants and tertiary procs to further free up space for better gems."

Does not provide any further information than this, but nice try