Race change.

definetly a relevent opinion since most games do hit 10 stacks tho i think nelf double ambush can be pretty predictable, assuming ur in a 10 stack game wouldnt subterfuge make up for meld since the movement speed is null? sure u get the decreased damage on ambush but you often go entirely unnoticed as well as having the ability to trinket within subterfuge (which isnt unique to human but can be done more frequently)which would allow better posistion for hitting the two ambushes

subterfuge allows 2 ambush in your energy threshold which is the same as what u would be doing in a smeld, so subterfuge which could be seen as the best talent in a 10 man becomes nullified as nelf as they would pick night stalker to get x2 big ambushes but will be noticed by most good players + have a higher chance of being ccd and not having a thing to do because your trink breaks the stealth

a small example can be seen here at 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yyinX0NDuzo#t=147s

i will say i am very biased to humans though
 
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Twiggi said:
me and my bearpaws would disagree with you especially with an fc at 10 stacks.
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Lol is this bearpaw thing in response to Restosexual's guild?

and

Angelbiatch/Johannalova said:
Why Would you meld with flag ?
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Randylayhee did this to me once when he was fcing. He had flag, and there was a fence between us, and I was playing my Arcane Mage. He shadowmelded with flag, which caused him to drop it of course and he waited until I was around the fence and in range of charge, and as soon as I was, he regrabbed flag and used charge on me. Basically I couldn't get any spells off while I was out of LoS and range of his charge. Pretty smart if you think about it.

I've also used stealth with flag on my rogue a few times. When I had flag and saw someone coming that hadn't attacked me yet and I was sure they were out of combat, I used stealth, dropping the flag, and ran back to them to sap them, regrabbed the flag and continued on my way. Obviously you have to be careful with this and have to be pretty sure that no one else will return the flag while you are stealthing them. Only works if there is only one person following you and no others around. Make sure you sap them out of range of clicking/scrolling the flag as well.
 
Saxxon said:
definetly a relevent opinion since most games do hit 10 stacks tho i think nelf double ambush can be pretty predictable, assuming ur in a 10 stack game wouldnt subterfuge make up for meld since the movement speed is null? sure u get the decreased damage on ambush but you often go entirely unnoticed as well as having the ability to trinket within subterfuge (which isnt unique to human but can be done more frequently)which would allow better posistion for hitting the two ambushes

subterfuge allows 2 ambush in your energy threshold which is the same as what u would be doing in a smeld, so subterfuge which could be seen as the best talent in a 10 man becomes nullified as nelf as they would pick night stalker to get x2 big ambushes but will be noticed by most good players + have a higher chance of being ccd and not having a thing to do because your trink breaks the stealth

a small example can be seen here at 2:28
Creepncrawl: A saxxon III Promotional video - YouTube

i will say i am very biased to humans though
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tldr but definately if you were in subterfuge it would make it somewhat pointless. But if you picked nelf you could spec into something else(more powerful ambushes?), (I don't recall the exact specs, except that i'm not subterfuge on my rogue). I feel like as a rogue in wsg that trinket isn't really going to save you. You have to pick your fights and watch your positioning if you want to be effective as a rogue in wsg. And you are not popping the trinket every 2 minutes on the dot anyways, somewhat mitigating how good a human trinket really is.
Not to mention that a 2 minute *vanish* is way more useful than a trinket that can't save your life.
Just my opinion.

Edit : bearpaws

Edit: ESPECIALLY considering rogue has no mobility, vanish is nice.
 
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Twiggi said:
tldr but definately if you were in subterfuge it would make it somewhat pointless. But if you picked nelf you could spec into something else(more powerful ambushes?), (I don't recall the exact specs, except that i'm not subterfuge on my rogue). I feel like as a rogue in wsg that trinket isn't really going to save you. You have to pick your fights and watch your positioning if you want to be effective as a rogue in wsg. And you are not popping the trinket every 2 minutes on the dot anyways, somewhat mitigating how good a human trinket really is.
Not to mention that a 2 minute *vanish* is way more useful than a trinket that can't save your life.
Just my opinion.

Edit : bearpaws

Edit: ESPECIALLY considering rogue has no mobility, vanish is nice.
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unless ur team has a monk to deathgrip stun thing or pally to hoj after that to put on there FC ur bad if u get hit by double ambush from a nelf... two invis ambushes from subterfuge however is far less predicatble plus if there spamming CC on there FC you can still TRINKET in the subterfuge to hit 2nd ambush, not to mention you can hit invisible hemos to build up a 1.2k invisible 5 point fast if u arnt able to hit there back

only brought any of this up because u mentioned a 10 stack game, which i assumed was a premade in which subterfuge is a better talent than attempting to meld and hit two ambushes on a FC whos team mates are likely spamming CCing on him at 10 stacks

EDIT: dont respond to my post with shit ive already said in the post that was "TLDR" please.... its kind of rude :(
 
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twiggi stop arguing with saxxon about rogues..., makin urself look stupid he knos what hes talkinng about and i agree with saxx don't say tldr then type up a reply that is almost as long as his sayin stuff he already said that u wer too lazy to read
 
Keep in mind that there is also a 6 second cooldown on Stealth. So If you were to ambush efc, you have to wait 6 seconds before you can use stealth again, even if you use shadowmeld. So you would either have to use ambush then shadowmeld, and wait for the cooldown to end while hoping no one hits you, which is highly unlikely in a premade situation, or run off a little shadowmeld and then stealth and go back. Whichever the case, chances are that efc has been healed by one of his healers by the time you can get a 2nd ambush off.

I feel like shadowmeld is more useful for survivability and when you are 1v1 vs an efc that can't heal. If this is the case, doing shadowmeld stealth then 2nd ambush will work.

Also, especially for a premade situation, I feel like being subterfuge would help when ninjaing flag returns and these are big. Makes me think of Nuremberg from Machine Gun Clicks in that premade video. You'll know who their fc is and it isn't uncommon for someone besides the fc to grab flag and pass to fc. I feel like the extra 3 in stealth would let you play more aggresively when going for flag return ninjas. Can't be sure about this, since I play mage a lot more than rogue, but Saxx, you play subterfuge rogue a lot and get ninjas all the time, wondering if you have noticed subterfuge being helpful when ninjaing flag returns. Do you think it helps for this?
 
dartofblue said:
Subterfuge is very helpful for ninjaing passes
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Yeah, that's what I thought, just wanted to hear Saxx's opinion on this because he has a lot of experience with this ^.^
 
Subterfuge is best for premades. Sap ambush kick, dual ambush with 10 stacks is still better than movement speed since premades are not very fast paced. With 10 stacks efc is always easily reached. Also subterfuge is great for chopping since you can still get off an ambush or two despite heavy aoe in a group. I use subterfuge a lot to open on an enemy chop and get back to my group before leaving stealth
 
Mocha said:
Subterfuge is best for premades. Sap ambush kick, dual ambush with 10 stacks is still better than movement speed since premades are not very fast paced. With 10 stacks efc is always easily reached. Also subterfuge is great for chopping since you can still get off an ambush or two despite heavy aoe in a group. I use subterfuge a lot to open on an enemy chop and get back to my group before leaving stealth
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who uses rogues in premades these days? lol
 
Stealthcnt said:
Yeah, that's what I thought, just wanted to hear Saxx's opinion on this because he has a lot of experience with this ^.^
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it has its ups and downs, its good cause u can trinket while in subterfuge without breaking it but you give up being able to catch up to a lot of players since you lose the faster stealth
 
Mocha said:
Subterfuge is best for premades. Sap ambush kick, dual ambush with 10 stacks is still better than movement speed since premades are not very fast paced. With 10 stacks efc is always easily reached. Also subterfuge is great for chopping since you can still get off an ambush or two despite heavy aoe in a group. I use subterfuge a lot to open on an enemy chop and get back to my group before leaving stealth
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Why not sap -> ambush the EFC -> re sap ?

and 1 spot to rogue it's less mid presence like boomkins / locks / brewmonks.
 
I'd rather have the faster stealth speed rather than a safeguard for something I should have no problem avoiding in the first place. You have to catch up to the FC anyways to even get the chance to ninja a passing flag.

Most FC's these days are either Druids, Shamans, or even Warriors at times. Unless you have profound positioning, I'd stick with Nightstalker. But like Saxx said, it has it's ups and downs, but I'm sticking to my opinion. I like Mocha's point on the FC having 10 stacks so it wouldn't matter but that doesn't quite persuade me :p
 
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