Queues alread 9m long and growing :/

[Depression]

any statement about 29 rerollers invading is probably just 100% correct when you are talking on a lvl 20 forum when there is a 29 forum 1 click away.

It may be tagged as a "20" forum, but the forum is about the brackets queue times. Unless I'm mistaken, the bracket is 20-29.

Edit - Also, as I've stated in a previous post the F2P/Vets were in the XP-ON bracket previously. So how is it that 29's have invaded "their" bracket now that they are in the XP-OFF bracket where the old 49/59/60/70/79s are currently at. Also not all 29s are leveled there because of the 20's joining the bracket. 79 twinks dropped down to 29 on the dot. And yes I have an old 79 twink rogue that is now level 29.

 

[Conzil]

But weren’t f2p/Vets the minority that was "invading" the leveler’s 20-29 bracket prior to this?

I wouldn't call us the minority, but sure, one could argue that we were the invaders there. The BGs that I played in had more Vets / F2Ps than levelers.

Especially a group with such a deep-seated sense of entitlement over a subscription-based game that they don’t subscribe to.

You clearly missed the point.

But it’s just as 20s did while face-rolling levelers in their bracket.

I understand that you might play twinks to face-roll worse geared players, but no one played a F2P to race-roll levelers. If we wanted to face-roll we would have made Vets.

 

[Dysphoria]

I understand that you might play twinks to face-roll worse geared players, but no one played a F2P to race-roll levelers. If we wanted to face-roll we would have made Vets.

No one? Some did. And with the comparable gearing potentials shared between f2p and vets in SL, they could gear heavy. But yes, vets more often farmed levelers. By saying 20s I was lumping them together.

Personally, I embrace the idea of playing XP-OFF on a (potentially) even playing field over steamrolling. This was the silver lining I saw from the deflating switch from 20-29 XP-ON to XP-OFF. I certainly admit to being naive about how attached certain players are to f2p these days (didn't frequent this subforum for years). When I used to visit xpoff more, twinking tended to be more bracket agnostic, and people would often dabble in a variety of them.

When I originally posted in this thread about adjusting to the new bracket, it wasn't in an effort to maliciously coax 20s into playing against 29s. I genuinely believed more people would be ready to shift with the tides and PvP on 25/27/29s in addition to pursuing PvE/achievs on their 20s (as most f2ps have second subbed accounts). Because it would be cool to have a thriving XP-OFF bracket of twinks fighting in parity. Also because it's the singular queueable option we've got for low-level twink PvP for who knows how long.

In the end, since way back twinking was an adaptive pursuit and that's where the community vibe stood for many years. I didn't foresee f2p becoming the rigid cornerstone that it is around here, with people wishing that the last remaining twink bracket would die because it does not cater to free-to-play dominance. At this point, the site might as well be changed to wowf2p.com.

You clearly missed the point.

I understand that you read that statement in a certain way.

 

[Dragpz]

No one? Some did. And with the comparable gearing potentials shared between f2p and vets in SL, they could gear heavy. But yes, vets more often farmed levelers. By saying 20s I was lumping them together.

Personally, I embrace the idea of playing XP-OFF on a (potentially) even playing field over steamrolling. This was the silver lining I saw from the deflating switch from 20-29 XP-ON to XP-OFF. I certainly admit to being naive about how attached certain players are to f2p these days (didn't frequent this subforum for years). When I used to visit xpoff more, twinking tended to be more bracket agnostic, and people would often dabble in a variety of them.

When I originally posted in this thread about adjusting to the new bracket, it wasn't in an effort to maliciously coax 20s into playing against 29s. I genuinely believed more people would be ready to shift with the tides and PvP on 25/27/29s in addition to pursuing PvE/achievs on their 20s (as most f2ps have second subbed accounts). Because it would be cool to have a thriving XP-OFF bracket of twinks fighting in parity. Also because it's the singular queueable option we've got for low-level twink PvP for who knows how long.

In the end, since way back twinking was an adaptive pursuit and that's where the community vibe stood for many years. I didn't foresee f2p becoming the rigid cornerstone that it is around here, with people wishing that the last remaining twink bracket would die because it does not cater to free-to-play dominance. At this point, the site might as well be changed to wowf2p.com.


I understand that you read that statement in a certain way.

Vet/F2P twinking was always more popular than 29s twinking. The only time where it was the way you described it is way back then, when the 29s could also shizz all over levelers in the same bracket:


Cata - Legion(2011 -2018): 29s twinking (5200 posts) vs 20s twinking (5,800 posts)
BFA (2018-2020): 20-29s forum Most popular threads are F2P/Vet, bonus meme: The Future of 29s Twinking - Lots of 29s hate here
SL (2020 - Now): 29s forum (102 posts) vs 20s forum (1,250 posts)

29s and 20s have always been at each others throats, but the only time 29s was popular was when 29s could queue with levelers. Ever since 29s were moved to the XP-off bracket, they died a quiet, quick death. Now the 20s bracket will suffer the same fate unfortunately

 

[Lateraldrop]

29s and 20s have always been at each others throats, but the only time 29s was popular was when 29s could queue with levelers. Ever since 29s were moved to the XP-off bracket, they died a quiet, quick death. Now the 20s bracket will suffer the same fate unfortunately

only the PVP aspect probably, 20s bracket is fundamentally different than others because it exists outside of PVP in a significant way; I really don't see that going away completely.

Before this expansion I never played 20s FTP or vet, so I'm not super vested or knowledgeable about this bracket and how they play, I'm not really one of 'em; but I know they are playing a different game than we do. People say they were surprised how attached the 20s are to their characters, but it really seems like a logical thing for a FTP to continue playing the way that they enjoyed for a long time since only one part of that is changing.

Also I think historically 20s, other than in this expansion, have not really been at the top of the food chain and they haven't seemed to mind playing in PVP. This idea that the core FTP community is looking for toxic smash games doesn't quite fit in my mind, although I could be wrong about that.

I am not surprised that ftps would rather wait it out and see how the bracket shakes out than participate in ways that are not enjoyable.

Hot take- normal leveling games are legitimately so much better now, I honestly think that this was the right move and I feel a little guilty saying so here because I know it has had a negative effect on this community in particular.

 

[Chops]

Hot take- normal leveling games are legitimately so much better now, I honestly think that this was the right move and I feel a little guilty saying so here because I know it has had a negative effect on this community in particular.

It was absolutely the right thing for them to do within the stated goals for their game. It didnt *have* to completely shatter the 20s community and we cant really lay that at Blizzards feet anyway.

 

[Dysphoria]

Vet/F2P twinking was always more popular than 29s twinking. The only time where it was the way you described it is way back then, when the 29s could also shizz all over levelers in the same bracket:


Cata - Legion(2011 -2018): 29s twinking (5200 posts) vs 20s twinking (5,800 posts)
BFA (2018-2020): 20-29s forum Most popular threads are F2P/Vet, bonus meme: The Future of 29s Twinking - Lots of 29s hate here
SL (2020 - Now): 29s forum (102 posts) vs 20s forum (1,250 posts)

29s and 20s have always been at each others throats, but the only time 29s was popular was when 29s could queue with levelers. Ever since 29s were moved to the XP-off bracket, they died a quiet, quick death. Now the 20s bracket will suffer the same fate unfortunately

Oh yeah, no doubt. 20’s have been more active than 29s in most phases since f2p entered 20-29. I was contrasting now to historic twink culture, which manifested more actively across all of the brackets and sub-forums.

A big head-scratcher to me is the identity attachment to a certain level. I played 29s back in the day from time to time, but I never identified as “a 29”. I identified as a twink. I’d bounce around to different levels and brackets over time for fun and in response to inevitable changes, as did many others.

If abrupt changes shook up the playing field, people would adapt to what Bliz gave them, as they are now. I didn’t see an attachment to one level subsuming people’s identities, so there was no space for this toxic us vs them twink infighting to develop (outside of 20-29, that is. I realize very real attachments have been nursed here for a long time).

A fluidity in adapting to change and always finding the edge is the core of twinking to me, not holding fast to only one option. But things seem flipped now, where vitriol is openly thrown at people who *gasp* choose to gear a toon at the top of a bracket (aka, twink).

Which is why I say this site could be changed from xpoff to wowf2p.com. The essence here has changed.

 

[chelly]

how about wowfotmreroller.com lmao

EDIT - I hope the bracket dies so the scum will head out. Then I hope the queues get merged so games pop again.

 

[Chops]

A big head-scratcher to me is the identity attachment to a certain level.

Viewing it as an attachment to a certain level, rather than an attachment to an enjoyable playstyle and niche community, is where people are having trouble.

Though its very silly for this conversation to still be going on. We've rehashed it a dozen times at this point.

 

[Dysphoria]

Viewing it as an attachment to a certain level, rather than an attachment to an enjoyable playstyle and niche community, is where people are having trouble.

Though it's very silly for this conversation to still be going on. We've rehashed it a dozen times at this point.

Right, I do see it as a dilemma between contrasting playstyles and community niches. The level preference just happens to be a main sticking point in the rift.

Though it's not my style, I do get the appeal of playing the game with the challenge of certain limitations via f2p. There's clearly a strong desire for it, and for people who want to stick to that, power to them. But at the same time, there's also validity in people's preference to not hinder themselves with such limitations.

So when changes happen, the self-limiters shouldn't acrimoniously blame non self-limiters for their woes. It's just the extension of a playstyle (self-imposed limitation) conflicting with an embracement of opportunity (traditional WoW twinking).

Just the same, 29s shouldn't blame f2ps for their lack of desire to queue into a mismatch or twink the new bracket.

Ultimately, the outrage from either side isn't necessary. Which is something both sides clearly have trouble grasping.

 

[Chops]

Ultimately, any outrage from either side isn't necessary.

at this point, sure.

You'll have to forgive F2Ps for our initial outrage though, given that none of this is taking place in a vacuum. The context of history is important and informative.

 

[Dysphoria]

You'll have to forgive F2Ps for our initial outrage though, given that none of this is taking place in a vacuum. The context of history is important and informative.

I hear that. And agree that historical context is valuable and can help us better understand both sides.

 

[Pexela]

I hear that. And agree that historical context is valuable and can better help us understand both sides.

Basically, i would argue that the F2P community succeeded both by having warm bodies ( this point isn't wrong ) but also by consequence of having so many new players, members of the community actively engaged in making this place fun for the F2P/Vets. Twinking has had how many interactions? How many pservers tried to offer a twinking experience only to die weeks later? Making a twinking community thrive isn't easy. And ours did.

So, many of us are protective of that, some overly so. And we don't engage with 29s, because the very few experiences we shared with them weren't good ones. Like Chops said, none of this happens in a vaccuum.

I will say this: People argue that F2P/Vets rolled to steamroll levelers, but from my experience, ever since Cataclysm, as a f2p, what really steamrolled brackets weren't F2P specifically, but Hunters. Always Hunters. When the bracket had a 6s CD Explosive Shot, what was really destroying the game were leveling Heirloomed Hunters and F2P heirloom hunters. When vets came, Vet Hunters were added to the equation. Sometimes, we got a more expanded FOTM, with Priests, Mages and sometimes, rarely, Druids FCing. But Hunters were the big scourge on the bracket, and what really made the bgs look like a scene from STALKER 3.

I'm sure a lot of F2Ps have the same Vietnam flashbacks i have of Worgen Hunters darkflighting in the mid of WSG and 1.1k Explosive Shots flying in our direction with 4s cd Conc Shots. Next to that, 29s aren't really anything to write home about. That doesn't mean i'll put myself through that suffering again, tho. What mr. Glancealot seems to be...*ahem* glancing, is that it doesn't matter how good his own perception of the game seems to be, for a lot of us, we will focus on a different aspect of the game ( PVE ) because it has less frustration and 20s are not playing F2P because we wanna be frustrated. There's a difference between having fun with the F2P ruleset, and actively try to destroy mountains while using a toyhammer.

29s need to understand this once and for all: When they says "adapt!", we already have. We have adapted to facets of the game that doesn't involve 29s. And when Blizzard force us to play with 29s, we will simply play something else in the game that doesn't involve 29s. We have adapted. 29s aren't part of our community, and i don't think they will ever be.

 

[Warglave]

I love how you believe every single f2play in the game is you or one of you. There's more that dont know or GAF about this site or any of you... f2play roll on without you, that's the point. You're not "protective" of them, you're sorry for yourselves.

The pedestal you people put yourselves on is enrmous, it'd be funny if it wasnt sad and predictable.

edit- levelers, that pay a sub, are better off. That's end of story. Everything complained about outside that is just self gratification.

 

[Pexela]

I love how you believe every single f2play in the game is you or one of you. There's more that dont know or GAF about this site or any of you... f2play roll on without you, that's the point. You're not "protective" of them, you're sorry for yourselves.

The pedestal you people put yourselves on is enrmous, it'd be funny if it wasnt sad and predictable.

edit- levelers, that pay a sub, are better off. That's end of story. Everything complained about outside that is just self gratification.

Levelers are for sure better off. None of that changes the fact that F2Players, even the XPoff ones, had a better community than whatever the hell the 29s are. That won't change, no matter how much you cry in your pillow that it was worth it.

We had enjoyed our time. You can enjoy this bracket with bigger timequeues because as it turns out, no one seems to want to play with you. Not even 29s wants to play with 29s, as it's proven by the championship they failed to host because no one appeared to play.

I'll do a naked dance on top of my pedestal and get back to you.

 

[Warglave]

no matter how much you cry in your pillow

Says the guy here bitching about it.

You're alright tho, not one of the bad ones. Still pretty wrapped up in yourself... but not really oblivious and that's cool. Try rubbing off on the rest of them, will ya? Every time one of you says "we" like the rest are just like you it just makes me cringe.

The subscribers are better off, and the freeloaders have simply gained a different master. From the looks of it DF would have been awful for them anyway no matter who the alpha dogs were. Those talent trees sure arent friendly to lowbies.

I'm sorry you missed your chance to crap on undergeared newbies for another xpac at no fee... maybe it'll go back soon.

Level-locked toons should have never been in with levelers. Ever. So anyone crying about the loss of that is just plain lol. Why you would think anyone should literally have a better PvP experience (for what it was to twink for free avoiding the real ones) than paying customers is bonkers. Yes, even f2play should have been in xpoff from the start. As much as it hurts your ego to crawl off the top of the foodchain into reality, take comfort in that it never should have been that way to begin with.

And of course in that reality.... expect it back to normal sooner than later. Blizz historically cant do anything right.

 

[Pexela]

You'll have enough time to cringe, between those queue times. Enjoy.