New to the 20s Twinking First Try Need Some Help

[The Abomb]

I've long pursued haste on all my toons, of every class, just for the 'feel' of it; even if it comes at a deficit to optimization.

This is my approach for Mastery. I will pursue it first just to attain the right feel and functionality of the build first. Then I will try to build around that and boost up other stats to compliment it.

How does it feel having only 5% haste though?

You get used to it but I definitely want more and think I will get more before I'm finished while keeping my Mastery the same. I'd like at least 8-9%. Having low Haste is harder at 20 due to not having 2 charges of judgement or improved Cons. I don't mind being slower though if I can just face tank anything in Cons and I have a turret of Holy shards flying back at the enemy just by attacking me.

When I was competing at Max level RBGs I ran about 6-8% Haste 10% versa/crit and 70% Mastery. Then when I popped CDs had over 120% Mastery for Block cap. Was so cool lol. Once you get addicted to Mastery it's hard to stop cause stacking more is always more effective than the last point due to exponential return on mitigation. Not to mention it also helps damage/healing. I do like not having weak points though vs some builds so likely will adjust depending on what I need to counter.

 

[raziel83]

Parjesh's Medallion

For BGs don't waste your time on this trinket, it's nerfed into oblivion for instanced pvp.

 

[The Abomb]

as for Trinks, https://www.wowhead.com/item=137362/parjeshs-medallion?bonus=1826:1472 comes to mind,

Oh yea I did score that Trinket on the first try. I'd likely use that as 1 trinket option to make sure I survive CC chains. Wish it had a socket though. Or bonus stat to really consider using it but it's a get out of jail free card to rotate with Bubble and other CDs.
[doublepost=1650744077,1650744012][/doublepost]

For BGs don't waste your time on this trinket, it's nerfed into oblivion for instanced pvp.

Awww, that's a real bummer. Didn't know some of these trinkets down here were nerfed for instanced PvP. Well there goes keeping that in my stash lol. Guess I'll throw it in storage though.

 

[raziel83]

Awww, that's a real bummer. Didn't know some of these trinkets down here were nerfed for instanced PvP. Well there goes keeping that in my stash lol. Guess I'll throw it in storage though.

Ya almost all legion dungeon trinkets don't actually do what their tool tip says they do inside a BG. Some of the damage ones are nerfed by 90% in bgs.

 

[The Abomb]

So I was testing the build with Thorium spike solo in Strath oddly got 2 Epics on the run but 21 Req got Blackskull and Ardent mace. Not sure if the "Lucky" Eastern expedition buff I had active is hidden and working for farming Strath guess I'll have to test again.

Anyways here is a glimpse of the damage layout seems like Thorium added 7.7k dmg it's about 7-12 extra dmg per block. Adds up though with tons of blocks. Really would be interested what a Skullflame would do on this build (some day )

Also seemed like Crusader had a very high uptime maybe more procs from Holy Shield/Thorium? was at near 58% at one point.

Holy Shield would be much higher if only doing trash but single Target Boss fights lowered it.

 

[raziel83]

Holy Shield would be much higher if only doing trash but single Target Boss fights lowered it.

Check it's healing? I noticed that seemed to be it's biggest impact in BGs. The prevented damage shows up as healing for some reason.

Anyways here is a glimpse of the damage layout seems like Thorium added 7.7k dmg it's about 7-12 extra dmg per block. Adds up though with tons of blocks. Really would be interested what a Skullflame would do on this build (some day )

I know you're doing pve atm but in BG's the spike was mostly underwhelming. Maybe it would do a max of 2 k dmg if I had a rogue or 2 plus some hunter pets on me all game. The +mastery enchant is probably better for BGs. And I did see someone with skullflame in a BG and it proc'd 2 or 3 times the entire BG. But it also going to depend on how many rogues / pets you're fighting.

Looking at your prot again, I would really consider switching to https://www.wowhead.com/item=156998/cudgel-of-naralex if you can still achieve your mastery goals (put mastery enchant on shield maybe). I don't pretend to understand why but the 3.6 speed somehow makes all your abilities do more damage. Even holy shield. Pretty much every twink on this website uses that (or the agil equivalent) for their mainhand if their class uses 1 h weapons. In fact it's so important that many people reroll until it procs rare or epic. Neither of us did that though lol.

You could also consider dropping the ghost iron dragonling for another ilvl 28 str / mastery / socket trinket. It's more damage. But you lose 2 mastery.

I also managed to screw up my prot https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/yeahnahbruh , I missed the cloak enchant lol. I'll only fix it if the new talents look juicy. I got into the last 3 betas so maybe I'll be 4 times lucky. Speaking of which, where's your goblin glider cloak enchant (from memory it's a 25 pandaria eng tinker)? It stacks with the strength enchant.

PS Your dragon did 7.3% of your total damage. That's a bit concerning imo, it's too high. Means your strength is a bit low and of course you're not using cudgel. But maybe your strength has to be low to reach your mastery break points. You using the https://www.wowhead.com/spell=114786/alchemists-flask ? It's something like 9 str out of BGs and 12 inside in BGs I think.

 

[The Abomb]

Check it's healing? I noticed that seemed to be it's biggest impact in BGs. The prevented damage shows up as healing for some reason.

So blocks against spells are considered Absorbs and shows up in combat log as Absorb. So it shows up as healing in the BG scoreboard and also in Details. However it doesn't log any Physical blocks. So when doing a dungeon against mostly physical mobs it isn't logged in Details. However it would definitely be top healing if it did.

I know you're doing pve atm but in BG's the spike was mostly underwhelming. Maybe it would do a max of 2 k dmg if I had a rogue or 2 plus some hunter pets on me all game. The +mastery enchant is probably better for BGs.

Sounds accurate but want to test everything and have gear swap options for when Sub runs out. While it's dmg is small I do try to look at how it's doing damage mechanically. What I mean by that is if Holy Shield is one of my top damaging sustain for the BG adding another 5-10 dmg from spike ontop of that increases that pressure against Dot classes.

I have another Shield atm with +4 stam/versa and likely think that will be my best bang for the buck in the end. Since I do want a decent HP pool as well.

Also in regards to Shield, it's item level is most important as the 177 shield block value improves the block mitigation. So I don't think anything under 28 lvl shield should be used personally.

Looking at your prot again, I would really consider switching to Cudgel of Naralex if you can still achieve your mastery goals (put mastery enchant on shield maybe). I don't pretend to understand why but the 3.6 speed somehow makes all your abilities do more damage. Even holy shield.

I did pick this up earlier didn't proc blue/epic...RIP haha. However yes the spells are based on weapon damage which if you ever use a + weapon enchant ALL your damage will go up. So Dense sharpening stones help a lot too. As a 24 green I'm not sure if it will be BiS when compared to 28 socket with possible bonus stats. I can understand why people rerun for this and I guess it's the new Bramble type farm in that regard.

You could also consider dropping the ghost iron dragonling for another ilvl 28 str / mastery / socket trinket. It's more damage. But you lose 2 mastery.

I've considered that but my other stats are in a pickle. My haste/crit are borderline too low as is. So i'd also be losing those stats as well. Prot just functions so well with secondary stats. Wish we could wear Heart of Azeroth which had big Haste/Mastery/Crit.

Speaking of which, where's your goblin glider cloak enchant (from memory it's a 25 pandaria eng tinker)? It stacks with the strength enchant.

I must admit my biggest weak point is professions and understanding what I can do or what is good. I used the guides to learn what is what but didn't know I could do that. I never really mained Engineering either for any toon. So it's really new to me.

I mostly was BS/JC through most expansions for extra sockets and JC gems then recently it didn't matter.

PS Your dragon did 7.3% of your total damage. That's a bit concerning imo, it's too high. Means your strength is a bit low and of course you're not using cudgel.

Yea I could test again cudgel and uping str latter but haven't got into those gems or gear yet. Side note my procs go off all the time? Like my dragon is always up and I noticed my Crusader proc having a silly uptime recently with over 60% block. Not sure if Holy shield/Spike is causing more procs? I'd have to test that.

But maybe your strength has to be low to reach your mastery break points. You using the Alchemist's Flask ? It's something like 9 str out of BGs and 12 inside in BGs I think.

Yea I rather have 20 less str to meet breakpoints if I have too. Str does nothing for the mechanics of the build unfortunately. I'm inscription and engineering so no flask. I'm actually not positive what professions I want to main just have the ones I do when I was first tinkering with various Twinks.

Thanks for all the solid suggestions! I'll make sure to have them as options in stash.

 

[raziel83]

y. What I mean by that is if Holy Shield is one of my top damaging sustain for the BG adding another 5-10 dmg from spike ontop of that increases that pressure against Dot classes.

Thorium spike only works on melee attacks I believe. If it worked on everything it'd be great for sure.

 

[The Abomb]

Thorium spike only works on melee attacks I believe. If it worked on everything it'd be great for sure

Ahh gotcha yea couldn't really see that in PvE.

 

[raziel83]

Ahh gotcha yea couldn't really see that in PvE.

Yeah so despite holy shield being able to block everything, shield spikes, skull flame shield and freezing band etc were originally made to only proc off melee hits. That would also explain why that skullflame user I saw only had 2-3 procs in a BG. I was super disappointed when I discovered my thorium spike wasn't working on hunters ranged hits or enemy spells (with holy shield of course).

 

[The Abomb]

Yeah so despite holy shield being able to block everything, shield spikes, skull flame shield and freezing band etc were originally made to only proc off melee hits.

I guess that makes sense. Looks like Skullflame would just be a OP PvE super fun item then for farming.

That would also explain why that skullflame user I saw only had 2-3 procs in a BG. I was super disappointed when I discovered my thorium spike wasn't working on hunters ranged hits or enemy spells (with holy shield of course).

Yea that is disappointing but also perhaps good news as the difficulty in attaining it. So now can focus on some other more attainable option that fits the build better specifically for BGs.

Edit- Ok so question on Trinkets for BGs is it just Legion nerfed in PvP? I'd like to explore some Tanking type trinkets for FCin or those types of situations that offer +Stam with some good proc. I'd like to have a Thick Boy set for certain situations to Tank in BGs.

Also I want to mess around with some Meta socket options anythought on a helm option? I'd like to see if some Meta gems have some good interactions with this build. Was curious on the Shield Block value one and a few others. Thanks
[doublepost=1650809230,1650805950][/doublepost]One of the reasons I decided on Human outside of the stun trinket for the Racial is I use them is for the 2% bonus to secondary stats, since stats are so important. So getting a few extra Mastery from there as well. The human racial for secondary stats is (2% bonus to stats from ALL sources) means if you got a proc or on use trinket those are increased by 2% as well.

I just picked up my 3rd piece of Savant gear and decided to gem for now +2 Crit +2 Versa to make up for the Versa I lost and bring my Crit up to a more respectable level boosting Holy shield damage.

I did also get Versa/Mastery boots with +5 Leech and socket for my first true BiS item. I think Leech could be very important in this build since you are reflecting such a sustain of damage from blocking. (ok think I've spent enough for this week lol)

 

[raziel83]

I did also get Versa/Mastery boots with +5 Leech and socket for my first true BiS item. I think Leech could be very important in this build since you are reflecting such a sustain of damage from blocking. (ok think I've spent enough for this week lol)

Bad news. Leech is nerfed in instanced pvp. Most twinks around here place a higher value on speed because of this.

k so question on Trinkets for BGs is it just Legion nerfed in PvP? I'd like to explore some Tanking type trinkets for FCin or those types of situations that offer +Stam with some good proc. I'd like to have a Thick Boy set for certain situations to Tank in BGs.

Check out Ivo's website. https://xpoff.com/threads/level-20-items-sheet-updated.97014/
https://twinkdb.github.io/

Disregard https://www.wowhead.com/item=136978/ember-of-nullification?bonus=1826:1472&ilvl=25 as it no longer procs in BGs for whatever reason. Seems so random. I can't believe blizz went out of their way to intentionally nerf this, almost no one used it anyway. You might like https://www.wowhead.com/item=37220/essence-of-gossamer?bonus=6710&ilvl=25 . I've seen healers get like 7-8 k healing out of it in a BG. Pretty solid.

Oh I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of every trink that is nerfed in BGs but from my experience and testing, almost all the juicy legion trinkets from dungeons are heavily nerfed. I've personally farmed and tested most of them. Apparently https://www.wowhead.com/item=137538/orb-of-torment?bonus=1826:1472&ilvl=25 works though.

Bunch of meta socket plate helms on that website too. And yeah human is BIS for stacking mastery.

 

[The Abomb]

Bad news. Leech is nerfed in instanced pvp. Most twinks around here place a higher value on speed because of this.

Hmmm how much is it nerfed? I have a leech belt that has no socket and kept it cause of the leech over a socket. Felt like it was more valuable. So I have 4.25% leech displayed with the 2 items of +10 leech.

I do have a speed mastery sword which is why I haven't put on the Cudgel as well. I have considered trying to get more speed gear but if leech is really bad then maybe I'll focus on that then. Not to mention for FCin.

Thanks for the info as always very helpful and appreciate your time

Check out Ivo's website. https://xpoff.com/threads/level-20-items-sheet-updated.97014/
https://twinkdb.github.io/

Disregard Ember of Nullification as it no longer procs in BGs for whatever reason. Seems so random. I can't believe blizz went out of their way to intentionally nerf this, almost no one used it anyway.

I'll check it out thanks for the link! As for nerfing random things I almost believe that some Dev literally did a BG lvling or a duel and hated some mechanic or trinket and was like....NERF!!! It has to be sometimes as I can't believe they would look for anything like this.

You might like Essence of Gossamer . I've seen healers get like 7-8 k healing out of it in a BG. Pretty solid.

Sweet this would be perfect actually!! Since Nagahide enchant doesn't work....RIP. The reason being Absorbs have an extreme value on Mastery Prot Pallies due to how hit tables and mitigation work. Since you block the damage 35% reduction then after that your damage mitigation is factored in so it's additive reduction instead of multiplicative. Then the remaining damage goes to Absorbs. It's how I would reduce 200k damage attacks in BFA on my Prot Pal to zero and people were pissed ROFL. Imagine going to hit someone with your big attack and it does nothing. Yea I was hated.

I been looking for a way to get Absorbs down here! I did test Collosus enchant but it's super nerfed although Versa does increase it's small absorb. It does proc all the time though but at a 13 absorb it's not worth it obviously.

Oh I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of every trink that is nerfed in BGs but from my experience and testing, almost all the juicy legion trinkets from dungeons are heavily nerfed.

Ok..I'll just avoid Legion then thanks
[doublepost=1650813124,1650812775][/doublepost]

You might like Essence of Gossamer .

Dam re-reading that tool tip it's 139 damage from each attack! That is OP you basically are taking no damage for 10 secs if you can reduce each attack below 200. Totally going to try and get it thanks!

 

[raziel83]

I'll check it out thanks for the link!

Ya it's very handy. Ivo puts a lot of effort into it.

Hmmm how much is it nerfed? I have a leech belt that has no socket and kept it cause of the leech over a socket. Felt like it was more valuable. So I have 4.25% leech displayed with the 2 items of +10 leech.

Idk. But just join a skirmish or BG and check your leech before /afking. Think it's maybe 50%?

Dam re-reading that tool tip it's 139 damage from each attack!

Yeah it's probably really good for prot. If prots new talents are decent I'll go farm one too.

 

[zazzyfraz]

Yeah gossamer is great. It really does absorb 94 per hit. Dot ticks, auto attacks, pets, everything. Easy to farm as a tank spec class

think the most I’ve absorbed from a single gossamer proc was 7k dmg while trying to solo dps a 15man gy spawn as a fury warrior. At least like 60 hits taken were all reduced by 94. When it procs I just walk at my enemies like the lich king, eating so many hits and not taking dmg. Having ignore pain to absorb 55% dmg taken and having shield block up, I can take 1k+ hits down to like 350, which is 2 sader procs worth of heals


Good trinket xd

 

[The Abomb]

Think it's maybe 50%?

Makes sense guess it will be determined by end build but if my 4% leech is 2% I'd still like the 2% compared to zero. It's just extra sustain. I might not go crazy with it is all as a focus. I'll check out some more speed options and try to feather that in.

Yeah gossamer is great. It really does absorb 94 per hit. Dot ticks, auto attacks, pets, everything. Easy to farm as a tank spec class

Wow that is great news it works on Dots since block also does, this is just a huge layer of extra mitigation with this trinket! Does Versa effect the absorb or is it static?

think the most I’ve absorbed from a single gossamer proc was 7k dmg while trying to solo dps a 15man gy spawn as a fury warrior. At least like 60 hits taken were all reduced by 94.

That's awesome! Yea definitely gonna farm this bad boy out and likely will be BiS for mitigation.

 

[The Abomb]

So after playing stat point Jenga and testing some things

Theorycraft time:

Today I picked up the Pit fighter trinket since I'm realizing I might have an HP issue and this trinket has a huge + Stam and mastery proc. So I'm dropping the Dragonling and going to use this trinket since it will have huge synergy with Crusader proc and my high mastery. Having +40 Mastery on Proc for 20 secs it seems fairly common for it to proc at same time or inside of Crusader amplifying the Str proc dramatically.

My 209 Attack power goes to 273 AP with both Procs up allowing for big damage/healing potential. The trinket proc brings me to 57% mastery and 64% block (outside of BG) with 25% damage reduction in Cons. (trinket says procs on melee attacks but ranged proc it on Prot)

I arrived here after fighting a decked out Hunter Twink who wanted to pick on me in the Pit yesterday before I got the trinket. I thanked him repeatedly for laying into me giving me Data on what to adjust. I did block almost all his attacks and Holy shield was my 2nd in damage but outside of a BG I have only 2750 HP and couldn't deal with his burst with my slow rotation. Granted in a BG my HP jumps up to 4480 so not sure if Scaling will fix this some.

However I figured I'm never going to have enough Haste/Crit running this Mastery build so I should stop trying to fix this problem and play to the Strength of the build. So now considering going full +2 str +2 stam gems to bring up my HP and AP. Which then lead me to getting the Pit Fighter trinket. I'm thinking if I can't attack fast hopefully when I do hit it's just very hard and the higher HP should perhaps give me the chance for blocking and reflect damage to do it's job.

Also dropped leatherworking for Alchemy moved my other Twink over and main to farm and get the Flask for Str. Maybe i'll break 300+ Attack power when finished and flasked up with procs.

Current gear - https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/bleeding-hollow/abombstwinkt

Final Thoughts:

If you are going to go as far as I have just farm out a blue/epic Cudgel first. In hindsight that weapon would likely benefit the most in this Mastery build since it will only amplify it's high weapon damage. Then with Dense stone for + weapon damage you will hit like a truck. Depending on how this build feels when Sub runs out again, maybe some day i'll try to farm that but that is a lot of work since I'm already here. I think you probably need it though if you want to play Prot Pal serious and likely compete with the Meta.

Side Note and my Spriest:

I had fun and did well on my undergeared Spriest so can't wait to see what he does Flasked up with Wizard oil and 30+% Haste. I noticed a mechanic not sure if people are aware but haste reduced the CD of Power word shield debuff. It doesn't show in the tool tip but when you see the debuff top right instead of starting at it's 7 secs now with 30% hastes it's at 5 Secs. Being able to spam Power word shield every 5 secs is going to be nice.

Also at 1.1 sec cast can really just get out damage and sneak in heals. So this will be my facemelting fun and have to say been fun tinkering with all this and thanks for all the help everyone

 

[lyeah]

I had fun and did well on my undergeared Spriest so can't wait to see what he does Flasked up with Wizard oil and 30+% Haste. I noticed a mechanic not sure if people are aware but haste reduced the CD of Power word shield debuff. It doesn't show in the tool tip but when you see the debuff top right instead of starting at it's 7 secs now with 30% hastes it's at 5 Secs. Being able to spam Power word shield every 5 secs is going to be nice.

Haste also brings down global cool down to 0.75s (lowest possible) rather than the baseline 1s. This literally means you can press your next spell faster. On paper its not noticeable, but when you test in game, imo it feels alot "smoother". I believe the minimal is 20% haste for that gcd reduction (with bg scaling, it becomes 10%). The other benefit, is the tick rate from dots and hots. i.e. every 1s becomes every 0.8s. But there are pros/cons, as you are giving up somethings to acquire some haste.

Some healers get more out of haste than others. Hpally can bring down their 1.5s flash of light to 1.1s with 40% haste (even in bgs). Their holyshock becomes 5.3s vs 7.5s and Judgement becomes 8.5s rather than 12s. Rshaman's only cooldown reduction is their healing surge... Mistweaver have zero cooldown reductions, but they see tremendous benefit with haste, as they can cast soothing mist right into vivfy/envloping mist by 0.75s, and continuously every 0.75s.

 

[raziel83]

If you are going to go as far as I have just farm out a blue/epic Cudgel first. In hindsight that weapon would likely benefit the most in this Mastery build since it will only amplify it's high weapon damage. Then with Dense stone for + weapon damage you will hit like a truck. Depending on how this build feels when Sub runs out again, maybe some day i'll try to farm that but that is a lot of work since I'm already here. I think you probably need it though if you want to play Prot Pal serious and likely compete with the Meta.

I wouldn't worry too much yet. Things are going to change soon. Prot's might have better passives or new abilities from the talent system makeover and there also might be access to some or all shadowlands gear. Possible covenant skills too maybe.

PS you going to play prot warrior in wotlk classic? I've seen it pump in PVP wearing full armor pen gear / gems.

 

[The Abomb]

I wouldn't worry too much yet. Things are going to change soon. Prot's might have better passives or new abilities from the talent system makeover and there also might be access to some or all shadowlands gear. Possible covenant skills too maybe.

Dragonflight releases April 2023 somewhere in there right? I don't think that is soon but I get your point that a lot will likely change with the talent system and hopefully overall ALL Tanks get to feeling more like Tanks again in PvP.

PS you going to play prot warrior in wotlk classic? I've seen it pump in PVP wearing full armor pen gear

Yea my original main was Prot War and was forced to switch to Prot Pal in BFA when they finally gutted warrior. The best is stacking Shield Block value and blending in Arm Pen so you can 1 shot with Shield Slam. They eventually put a cap on Shield Block value so then people just would Cap it then go Arm pen to just melt everyone. Even shockwave hits like an absolute truck.

The best part of Prot War in WotLK though besides big damage is all the utility. 10 sec CD on spell reflect, ranged silence, can break roots, shield slam dispel, fear. Then you have damage shield which makes you nigh immune to Rogues since it reflect damage based on Shield Block value. A rogue opens on you and they are literally at half HP just from attacking you (how it should be). It was a great time to be alive. Anyone should feel scared attacking a Tank solo, that is balance.