Let's save level 20 twinking... Squeaky wheel gets the grease
- Thread starter Footman
- Start date
chelly
Legend
We should remove the retail sections from forum then
Chops
Soccer Dad
Why? 10s and 20s are still quite popular, 29s have a foundation they could build on, I assume Rejuv is still out there hyping 39s. Plenty of retail activity exists.
To the extent that one would argue against a retail section of the forums, one would need to argue against the existence of the forums in their entirety, which... I mean you could make a case.
Dj3nka
Veteran
Couldn't agree more, the whole appeal for me was the casual pvp after i get the gear without paying a sub, when i get enough time for a game or few. It was the reward in itself to have something to scratch the WoW itch and have a relevant character expansion long.
Pve never mattered... nor does it require BIS gear, the only ones it matters to are a handful collectionists and achievment hunters. I worked on those things over the years at max level when it was relevant, doing it again on a 20 years later never appealed to me nor it had meaningful value.
Almost everything can be stomped with decent gear that can be acquired in a relatively short time, past that point you start questioning yourself and your life/time wasting decisions.
Pvp for 20s as it is now is dead, you can try to play a hunter or a priest and be an annoyance and feel like you might be doing something but its a waste of time in the end, you're noting more than an annoyance that gets globalled the first chance they get.
What we can do is wait and see if something changes and we can eventually play without being grouped with 29s, in however form that takes. If we get a chance at all again, which i doubt because we were intentionally removed.
In the mean time most 20s will just start collecting dust if they aren't at it already.
Arpheton
Veteran
I'm one of the weird guys enjoying f2p without pvp. I try to play every quest, because it's fun for me, some of the stories around the quest are really good. If you just hurry for maxlevel or bis gear, you miss alot. That's my opinion. And I think there are more f2p who enjoy the pve content. And I think that's the big difference between vet and f2p.
CroyeTchor
Member
Gonna agree with Arpheton, you're entierly right on this one mate. For all of the people owning a paying account, this kind of stuff prolly seem futile since you can do much more enjoyable things on the game. I know it's been said dozens of times but the major interest of f2p accounts is to both seek what you can do, push the limits; and also to more lore interested people, live a story.
I don't know who here tried to take a character and go through all the zones, do all the quests (in expansion order is better but not necessary) like Vyvenem do (kudos to him, he's a legend for pure f2p). You get to see more down-to-earth lore, amazing stories (I highly reccomend Silverpine Forest and Frostfire Ridge for Horde
) or just have a good laugh with most goblin related quests.
F2p will still be a thing. However, since the main focus of Xpoff is PVP most 20 players (as most of them prolly aren't pure f2p) may feel like they have no reason to play the game. If you're feeling like giving a try to slow-paced exploration you might find a shoe fitting your foot. All that being said, don't worry for pure 20's, we're weirdos and we will always find something to do on wow.
I don't know who here tried to take a character and go through all the zones, do all the quests (in expansion order is better but not necessary) like Vyvenem do (kudos to him, he's a legend for pure f2p). You get to see more down-to-earth lore, amazing stories (I highly reccomend Silverpine Forest and Frostfire Ridge for Horde
) or just have a good laugh with most goblin related quests.F2p will still be a thing. However, since the main focus of Xpoff is PVP most 20 players (as most of them prolly aren't pure f2p) may feel like they have no reason to play the game. If you're feeling like giving a try to slow-paced exploration you might find a shoe fitting your foot. All that being said, don't worry for pure 20's, we're weirdos and we will always find something to do on wow.
Newaccount
Veteran
it's good for the average player, but its bad for the niche twink player. I personally think f2p/vet twinks should strive to spread their selfish wants in order to *copium* get blizzard to compromise. yes, from the average players perspective, its a very good thing twinks are removed from leveling bgs (not rly because exploiters still have xp debuff but whatever). but from my selfish perspective, i would want a compromise instead of blizzard fucking us over. selfish perspectives are still valid perspectives that people should listen to, people dont want/need/feel certain things for no reason. twinking is fun, and it should be a part of the game in some sort of way because its a fun thing to do. it is selfish, because i only want what i feel would be fun for me, but whats fun for me can be fun for other people. so instead of removing a niche I feel you should try and compromise so both mediums exist. as both mediums exist, both communities can co exist having fun, which is obviously a good thing for the game. people having fun should be their main priority. fun = more game time = higher probability of giving more money to blizzard. if the average player wants something to change that will harm/remove a certain community, i think the community they are harming should at least be given a second to communicate back to blizzard what they want so they can compromise.
Chops
Soccer Dad
This is absolutely fair.
The compromise is segregated BG ques. That not enough people find fun what we find fun is a player created problem. Not a Blizzard created problem.
You find it fun. I find it fun. Given that this is a twinking forum, I think its fair to say everyone here finds its fun. But the simple fact of the matter is... that (apparently) is not enough people to get consistently reasonable que times when we're on our own. And there doesnt appear to be anyone with the desire or the time to try and lead consistent community efforts. There's clearly enough people interested to at least have 20s or 29s playing arenas a couple nights a week.
But noones stepped up to make that happen either. You cant call for a compromise and then expect one side to do all the work for you, after all. Thats not really a compromise. Blizzard has provided a system for us to coexist in the game. We are... well. We're not using it.
that on us. not blizz.
Newaccount
Veteran
if a compromise causes a community to get fucked up, it doesnt really sound like a compromise 2 me. i am talking in hypotheticals, in reality none of this shit is going to change, but talking with ideas what blizzard did was not a compromise. to the f2p/vet community, it just killed pvp. now obviously blizzard shouldnt have to cater to a community that are too lazy to fix things themselves, but I feel that situation is far from the one we are in right now. the situation we are in right now feels like blizzard cut off our feet, and now we feel as if we are the reason we cant walk. f2p/vets can not compete in pvp anymore. that isnt a thing we did to ourselves.
Chops
Soccer Dad
I'm gonna break my keyboard typing this so many times but
This isnt new. F2P especially have only known less than 2 xpacs in which they were viable in random BGs. Yall are acting like a longstanding, mainstay feature of the bracket was removed. In reality, its simply reverted to form. SL (and legion) were the exceptions. Not the rule.
Newaccount
Veteran
sure, but my point still stands. blizzard took something away from us, we didnt take it away from ourselves.
Chops
Soccer Dad
it doesnt, actually.
Blizzard removed us from leveler BGs, which conforms to their *long* stated desire to have twink and leveler BGs be separate.
It also places F2P into level 29s ques, making F2P mostly unviable in pvp. Which (ill remind the audience) is what F2P have been for the vast majority of their existence. If you treat SL like an exception, nothing has changed for F2P. There was a brief, shining moment in WoWs history where we were viable in random BG ques. It amounts to a footnote. Vets can claim an extra year or so of time there thanks to mid-late BFA. And this historical footnote is the only time 20s have really been popular enough to stand on their own since like... Late Cata? Mop?
Blizzard didnt take anything from us. They corrected a mistake. They have also provided us with everything we need to have a little niche community with active pvp. It's on us (the royal "us" because fuck that Im tired) to build on that. All of the tools are there. /wg command, in game communities, discords... Blizzard doesnt actually need to do anything else to make it possible for 20s to thrive. They already made your compromise. Asking for anything else is asking for them to *cater* to you and god fucking help me im going to agree with warglave here... they dont owe us shit
Dragonstormy
Member
Is there a general XpOff Discord? Like for each and everyone, Pvp, Pve, etc., not just those little trading or wargame discord groups.
Newaccount
Veteran
i don't disagree. blizzard doesn't have to do anything, I am being selfish and being a baby for wanting to be catered to. but am I wrong for wanting to be catered? I feel the "mistake" of f2ps being in leveler bgs couldve been "fixed" in a way better way for both communities to be better off. thats what I feel it means to compromise. both sides in a conflict being rewarded, not one side getting fucked over and the other gaining. but, of course, we are talking in the landscape of ideas and what *could* happen. thats why I dont disagree with you. it just seems you are misunderstanding where I am coming from. I am talking in the land of what *couldve* happened, and you are talking in the land of what *reasonably* happened.
Magrain
Veteran
The whole reason why I actually "Officially" started twinking, is to just have the highest possible gear I can and just go anywhere in the pve world and see how much damage I can do to anything i come across with. The pvp aspect for me at least was more of an afterthought, because I'm not the type of competitive player. I cannot press buttons fast nor the mental capacity to follow simple instructions like "get the fucking healer you dumbass!" that sort of thing. So yeah, pvp is secondary to me, not saying it's bad, each to their own.
shanker
OG
BFA and SL were the exceptions, SL was a drastic
Legion everyone was merged, due to BGs being templated all PVP were active and que able. every X9 could out item level a 20, 60, 70, 80 twink along with extra abilities those BGs were imbal too even at max level.
BFA started with everyone merged, shortly after split again, 20F/Vs stayed in xpon. gear was from limited (6) classic wow dungeons, PVP satchels, quest/world drop upgrades to blue like dungeon gear or epic ilvl 31. there was nothing insanely imbal, nothing insanely drastic. F2P 20s had no meaningful enchants, as most did not work
SL started merged and split again. 20F/Vs stayed in xpon, blizzard unlocked so much content and gear, ungated near all professions to low levels. players at 20 were like 70s of BC loaded with sockets, or loaded with one socket ilvl 28 gear loaded with leech, speed. that was a golden era, alot imo spent too much time in last two years constantly farming, building numerous classes, specs and in double for two factions.
Chops
Soccer Dad
Yes. Because there is a near infinite possibility of what Blizzard could have done, theres nothing but wishful thinking and "dude could you imagine" thats comes out of imagining what could have happened. Instead, you look at what did happen and ask yourself if it was reasonable and within the developers stated goal for their game (yes, on both counts).
Theres nothing bad about the impulse to selfishly wish that the change had been less drastic, but to state that blizzard took something from you and they cut the legs out from under the bracket is simply not true. F2P have far more available to them than we did back in the Cata/Mop/Wod era in terms of organizing tools and things to do in game, yet the bracket is less popular and has less community buy-in than it did then.
The only question with any value at this point is "Why is that?"
Newaccount
Veteran
if you accidentally give a blind person sight, then gouge their eyes out because it was a mistake, you took their sight away from them. blizzard gave us f2p/vet bgs and arenas, and now they have taken it away from us. it doesnt matter if it is better than it was back then, they gave us something then took it away. just because it used to be worse back then does not invalidate criticism of how blizzard handled the situation at all. I believe that blizzard couldve kept f2p/vet bgs and arenas, while also rewarding levelers so they dont get one shot all the fucking time.
just because its reasonable for them to do, doesnt mean it is something that ought/should happen. its reasonable for a murderer to kill a witness, but it is not a good thing that should happen.
a person without feet can walk on their hands, but you can not be shocked pikachu face if the person without feet complains that they cant walk like they used to. blizzard botched up f2ps/vets. f2ps/vets are not equal in random bgs/arenas (the huge majority of f2p/vet pvp), so f2ps/vets are left with their hands to walk on. f2p/vets can still wargame, but they arent. do you know why? because blizzard took the steam out of f2p/vets. it isnt because f2p/vets are "lazy", f2p/vets were doing shit when f2p/vets were in levelers que. there is no more drive/motivation to set up anything for f2p/vets because of what blizzard did.
chelly
Legend
Pvp was way more fun and rewarding as a f2p back in cata/mop.
The major base of twink pvpers of the original 19/70s bracket hadn’t yet caught on, partially because those communities were prosperous and thriving.
f2p largely were left to their own devices, especially due to the increased limitations and server merges from back then. Gearing was simple and way less time consuming as compared to present in obtaining boas through honor->jp conversion and profession swapping for sub 100 skill enchants.
you could queue BGs and face only levelers for games at a time, maybe queueing into 2-3 other f2p twinks at most. Games were rewarding because the power gap between a (not retarded) leveler and a f2p wasn’t that great.
there were a few folks who played in the 20-24 bracket as 24s early on, they were powerful and would most times drop an unprepared f2p - but the gap is much harder to overcome now and they were few and far between, and certainly weren’t running premades.
[doublepost=1669756670,1669756224][/doublepost]I’ll add that while I’m probably one of the saltiest about the changes as someone who has only played 20s since their cata release, you are absolutely right that it’s not the first time regular pvp hasn’t been a good option for the bracket.
I will continue to gear and try to stay at the top of 20s gearing knowledge and will explore other ways to play.
I specifically remember world pvp in late WOD/ legion in Ashenvale for example was pretty active, hoping maybe to find something similar in SL zones maybe.
… and I have an HOA to max right
The major base of twink pvpers of the original 19/70s bracket hadn’t yet caught on, partially because those communities were prosperous and thriving.
f2p largely were left to their own devices, especially due to the increased limitations and server merges from back then. Gearing was simple and way less time consuming as compared to present in obtaining boas through honor->jp conversion and profession swapping for sub 100 skill enchants.
you could queue BGs and face only levelers for games at a time, maybe queueing into 2-3 other f2p twinks at most. Games were rewarding because the power gap between a (not retarded) leveler and a f2p wasn’t that great.
there were a few folks who played in the 20-24 bracket as 24s early on, they were powerful and would most times drop an unprepared f2p - but the gap is much harder to overcome now and they were few and far between, and certainly weren’t running premades.
[doublepost=1669756670,1669756224][/doublepost]I’ll add that while I’m probably one of the saltiest about the changes as someone who has only played 20s since their cata release, you are absolutely right that it’s not the first time regular pvp hasn’t been a good option for the bracket.
I will continue to gear and try to stay at the top of 20s gearing knowledge and will explore other ways to play.
I specifically remember world pvp in late WOD/ legion in Ashenvale for example was pretty active, hoping maybe to find something similar in SL zones maybe.
… and I have an HOA to max right
Chops
Soccer Dad
so youre entire framing is that of yourself as a victim, and not the bully.
Blizzard didnt give a blind man sight and then gouge his eyes out, they arent murderers killing a witness, they didnt leave us as amputees.
Blizzard accidentally let the lions loose at the zoo and finally got them back in a pen.