Hit Rating Cracked

Pizza said:
So all of these calculations are off of 10 AP? What about the critical strike you gain from the agility that goes along with losing the AP?



I'm not leaning either way, I'm just wondering if some things are being left out.
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Well, I cant comment on that part, but I can say that 2 things that _arent_ included in the calculations are increased SF procs and increased LS procs. As fpr the agility part, Im a bit confused. Theres not really that many places Im actually sacrificing agility for hit rating, basically the ring (which is the only truly debatable piece imo), and the cloak. I think its safe to say we're all in agreement that BoA shoulders/chest are BiS by far.
 
Slashdrive said:
So the moral of the story is with hit pot on you only need the belt to be capped?
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No, the moral of this story is that a horde rogue should always have atleast 15 hit rating and an ally should have 15 in arena. 11 otherwise.



hit pot + belt will cap you against everything other than nelfs.
 
Eh, I tried this build out a while back. The DPS was alright, but I felt like I lost all of my utility and a lot of the survivability.



Subtley is just way too useful to my play style.
 
Thing is that you guys don't see there's a DPS increase when you stack 20 hit rating opposed to just capping.
 
Just throwing this out there, these calculations are all based on DPS, but as a rogue chasing down a druid in warsong, or chasing down anything for that matter. How often are you attacking them for 100% of the time?



What im getting at is, isnt AP/Crit alot more viable than stacking major amounts of hit rating over the cap, just due to the fact that as a deep hit rating buld when you finally get close, your burst is not as consistantly high as a Crit/AP build with the hit cap?
 
Well i'll use the same argument i use when discussing its uses with ret pallys. Sure your bursts can hit harder if you stack ap, but they could also hit alot lower. If you stack hit your burst value normalises somewhat, giving you a more reliable burst value, whilst on average being about the same dmg each time if you stacked an equal amount of AP. A slightly lower value of burst> sometimes slightly higher and sometimes lower.



The hit to me sounds preferable, assuming you get the same amount of dps from the hit as you would if you stacked ap/crit instead.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Well i'll use the same argument i use when discussing its uses with ret pallys. Sure your bursts can hit harder if you stack ap, but they could also hit alot lower. If you stack hit your burst value normalises somewhat, giving you a more reliable burst value, whilst on average being about the same dmg each time if you stacked an equal amount of AP. A slightly lower value of burst> sometimes slightly higher and sometimes lower.



The hit to me sounds preferable, assuming you get the same amount of dps from the hit as you would if you stacked ap/crit instead.
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well yes thats not wrong, but ive played with both, and in practice the crit build by far becomes alot more practical than the hit build, i found myself putting out such low pressure on the flag carriers as a hit build than i did the crit build with the improved sinister glyph. im specced 8/2/0 and its great for the warsong crit build. I feel i can much easier force people cooldowns with the crit style, which against a flag carrier is kinda what the whole plan is to do.



I dunno, this is my experience and preference, but i cant see many people after trying both builds prefering the hit build over the crit, and afterall on the entertainment side of things, its fun to see lots of crits flying around everywhere ^^
 
Ok, well im happy to take your word for it, but its worth keeping in mind that you get more crits if you hit more, according to the melee one dice roll system. It would be interesting to see figures for burst situations.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Well i'll use the same argument i use when discussing its uses with ret pallys. Sure your bursts can hit harder if you stack ap, but they could also hit alot lower. If you stack hit your burst value normalises somewhat, giving you a more reliable burst value, whilst on average being about the same dmg each time if you stacked an equal amount of AP. A slightly lower value of burst> sometimes slightly higher and sometimes lower.



The hit to me sounds preferable, assuming you get the same amount of dps from the hit as you would if you stacked ap/crit instead.
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Actually, I've done a lot in regards to figuring out "Burst Potential"



While hit does increase Burst Potential, it's effect on Burst Potential drops off dramatically after hitting various soft caps. Burst Potential is related to a limited time frame and sticking the highest amount of damage possible into that small time frame by lining up various attacks, debuffs, buffs and abilities to deal damage in 3-5 GCds.



For the Rogue Class at higher levels, your highest burst potential would involve applying Garrote and 5 point Rupture and some combo points into Slice and Dice on a target, allow energy to pool some as you build say 3 or more Combo Points, and then energy dumping with your best combo attack and best burst finisher... oh and maybe stack up some Deadly Poisons prior to this energy dump as well.



But seeing as this isn't high level, burst combos would involve a 3 or 4 combo point set up on a target before Energy Pooling in preparation for 2 Sinister Strikes and an Eviscerate on your target. A lvl 19 Rogue with 2x Shadowfang can line up 4 white attacks during this, 2 main hand and 2 offhand, without any haste. After hitting yellow Cap, 1% Crit becomes more valuable for Burst Potential than 1% Hit because it can apply to all 7 of the Attacks rather than just the 4 that the 1% hit would provide for.



So while in a continuous fight, 1% hit is better, in that moment that a Rogue chooses to go for the kill after making appropriate preparations, the 1% crit provides far more to the lethality.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
Ok, well im happy to take your word for it, but its worth keeping in mind that you get more crits if you hit more, according to the melee one dice roll system. It would be interesting to see figures for burst situations.
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Actually, I thought the dice roll system for melee was in order of priority





Miss %

Dodge%

Parry%

Block%

Crit %

Crushing Blow%

Hit fills in what's left.
 
No, hit reduces the chance to miss. Its the highest priority roll. However now that i take another look at it i think my previous statement was abit incorrect. A blue quote on the subject is



"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."



and im not entirely sure how to interpret this.



Edit: I believe what it means is that your miss chance includes a chance for your crits to miss, thus hit improves crit. i may be wrong though.
 
Kore nametooshort said:
No, hit reduces the chance to miss. Its the highest priority roll. However now that i take another look at it i think my previous statement was abit incorrect. A blue quote on the subject is



"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."



and im not entirely sure how to interpret this.



Edit: I believe what it means is that your miss chance includes a chance for your crits to miss, thus hit improves crit. i may be wrong though.
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Yeah, I forgot to mention that Hit Rating reduces chance to miss rather than increase the chance to hit per se.



Ah, here we go from WoWWiki:



Miss

Dodge

Parry

Glancing Blow

Block

Critical hit

Crushing Blow

Ordinary hit



---



This is the table that governs a melee attack by a mob and a melee auto attack by a player.



The tables are laid out in descending order of the precedence of one attack result over another. That is to say, the entries at the top of the table take precedence over the entries below them. This precedence order is from Blizzard, and as such is accurate. What this table means is this:



* Every melee attack (except for yellow-damage special attacks dealt by players, as described in the next section) has a chance to miss, to be dodged, to be parried, to be blocked, to be a glancing blow, to be a critical, and to be a crushing blow. Anything left over is an ordinary hit.

* The chances listed in your general spellbook tab (for you to Dodge, Parry, or Block) are absolute percentages. If you have a listed dodge chance of 4.5%, then on average 4.5% of all melee attacks made against you by a mob of equal level will be dodged, not merely 4.5% of those melee attacks that didn't miss you.

* Some melee attacks have a 0% chance for some of these attack results; e.g., an auto-attack made by a player has a 0% chance of being a crushing blow, an attack made by a mob has a 0% chance of being a glancing blow, an attack made against a player without a shield has a 0% chance of being blocked, etc..

* For mob and white-damage melee attacks, there is no such thing as a blocked crushing blow, a parried crit, a missed glancing blow, etc.. All of these possible attack results are mutually exclusive.

* If the total chances of all the entries above the bottom of the table reach or exceed 100%, the attack cannot be an ordinary hit.

* If the total combined chance of a miss, dodge, parry, or block is 100% or higher (as in the case of a well-geared paladin using Holy Shield), not only can the attack not be an ordinary hit, the attack also cannot be a crit or a crushing blow.



---



So basically, the only time that increasing Hit Rating would result in increased occurence of Crits is if:



Crit Chance > 100 - (Miss% + Dodge% + Parry% + Glancing Blow% + Block%)
 
so in the end should i go for hit caped or not... :eek::confused::rolleyes::cool:
 
ahh sucks and just got caped... :p
 
Falaris said:
Not sure what you mean by 10ap
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For each one of the calculations he always added +10 AP and/or +4 hit. I was just wondering where the +10 AP was coming from.
 
Pizza said:
For each one of the calculations he always added +10 AP and/or +4 hit. I was just wondering where the +10 AP was coming from.
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4 hit gives the same increase of DPS as 10 AP does after passing the hit cap.



Besides that - I do agree crit is better in duels where you have little up-time, since it's rather about the potential burst damage than the chance of the burst coming out as good as possible. Talking about 1v1s with a priest or mage for example.



Then it comes down to play-style. Do you go for reliability (hit) or potential (crit)? If you stack hit your tactic vs. a priest will be to oom him, if you go for crit you will want to pop your trinket when he screams you when your health is low. You will often find yourself stacking less stamina in a crit build, while hit builds are often balanced. Either build is viable, but some situations will be a lot easier if you have a set of both.
 
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