Fanatic's Guide to Dagger Rogues

I can't begin to understand why anybody would think any dagger would be better than a pair of shadowfangs.



Directly from the onset the first thing that would need to be considered is swing time and top end damage. The funny thing is Blizzard has already done that for you with the DPS listed in the tool tip in each weapon and amazingly enough nothing beats out the shadowfang.



Since bare dps is obviously better with a shadowfang the only thing that could possibly make daggers more viable would be the stat bonus. But there again no dagger give more agility than a shadowfang. Also no dagger has a proc chance that hits as hard as a shadowfang.



Ok so we have ruled out dps and stats as making daggers better how about abilities.



A max possible backstab crit should be around 300 and takes 60 energy. This means you can only do one backstab without needing to wait for energy to recharge A sinister strike can crit for 260 and costs 40 energy which means it can be preformed twice before running out of energy.



Right there 520 damage > 300 damage so it can't be about burst. Even if you could hit a 400 damage backstab it doenst compair to 2 sinister strikes.



White hits are higher with shadowfangs, as well as white crits. The argument about white critting twice as often is wrong because the only dagger in the game that is twice as fast as a shadowfang has a top end of 30. That is far less than half the top end of a shadowfang (back to the good old DPS stat in the tool tip again.



I can respect wanting to be different and not wanting a cookie cutter rogue.

I can respect not wanting to be like curley. (greatly)

I can respect playing a dagger rogue for the fun of it and trying to make a gimped toon work.

I can even respect making a BIS dagger rogue.



I can not respect making a dagger rogue and calling it BIS when it is clearly not.
 
yougotcriton said:
I can't begin to understand why anybody would think any dagger would be better than a pair of shadowfangs.



Directly from the onset the first thing that would need to be considered is swing time and top end damage. The funny thing is Blizzard has already done that for you with the DPS listed in the tool tip in each weapon and amazingly enough nothing beats out the shadowfang.



Since bare dps is obviously better with a shadowfang the only thing that could possibly make daggers more viable would be the stat bonus. But there again no dagger give more agility than a shadowfang. Also no dagger has a proc chance that hits as hard as a shadowfang.



Ok so we have ruled out dps and stats as making daggers better how about abilities.



A max possible backstab crit should be around 300 and takes 60 energy. This means you can only do one backstab without needing to wait for energy to recharge A sinister strike can crit for 260 and costs 40 energy which means it can be preformed twice before running out of energy.



Right there 520 damage > 300 damage so it can't be about burst. Even if you could hit a 400 damage backstab it doenst compair to 2 sinister strikes.



White hits are higher with shadowfangs, as well as white crits. The argument about white critting twice as often is wrong because the only dagger in the game that is twice as fast as a shadowfang has a top end of 30. That is far less than half the top end of a shadowfang (back to the good old DPS stat in the tool tip again.



I can respect wanting to be different and not wanting a cookie cutter rogue.

I can respect not wanting to be like curley. (greatly)

I can respect playing a dagger rogue for the fun of it and trying to make a gimped toon work.

I can even respect making a BIS dagger rogue.



I can not respect making a dagger rogue and calling it BIS when it is clearly not.
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Where in my guide do I mention a dagger setup being "BIS"?



Also, I was offering people an alternative way to play a rogue that can be as viable as a Shadowfang or any other 1hand setup. I do appreciate the criticism and I would argue reasoning however; everything you said was blatantly obvious.



As far as the differences are concerned I play my rogue as support; Kicking healer's, Backstap waylaying people chasing my FC ect.. It's all about the playstyle and quite frankly I find spamming SS and relying on white hits boring whether it's "BIS" or not, it puts me to sleep. So while yes Shadowfang's are the best on paper its just not my thing.
 
well there are several reasons why daggers are good

they may not be a higher dps or higher burst as shadowfangs but they are certainly useful for other reasons

1. waylay as rogues dont have cripling poison at level 19 it is a very useful talent as it slows down efc's possibly preventing a flag return and also making it easier for melee to stick on the enemys ass

2. ambush crits higher than sf's but unfortunately after the ambush the overall dps falls

3. backstab crits higher than sinister though costs more energy

4. daggers are much better than wielding shadowfangs against a hunter as you can apply waylay more and keep closer to the hunter and as you will not be getting many hits on a hunter as they will be trying to kite you the fast dagger attacks will help you do a higher amount of damage you would with SF's

there are also many SF advantages but meh i suppose it depends on playstyle etc and i suppose im not too good with rogues but its just my opinion and im no rogue expert unfortunately
 
1) Waylay is very useful. Less likely I'll be kited around mercilessly by a Hunter/Ele Sham and it gives me the opportunity to help keep Rogues off of important support or even our flag carrier.



2) Damage isn't terrible. I'm not gimping myself drastically for choosing Backstab over inane Sinister Strike spam.



3) Sacrificing a bit more energy for more Waylays and still being able to manage my CC abilities isn't a bad trade-off.
 
Fanatic said:
Why are dagger rogue's viable?

Short answer, Burst damage on an EFC. A dagger rogue's niche in a WSG is a support finisher, while we are capable of 1v1's and mid farming you will find yourself a better asset to a team by staying on an EFC and timing your opener accordingly. Your timing can be the difference between a swift return or a reset.
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Fanatic said:
I'll take Initiative over Waylay just because of the shear quickness you can get 5 combo point's after opening up on an EFC
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Fanatic said:
As far as the differences are concerned I play my rogue as support; Kicking healer's, Backstap waylaying people chasing my FC ect..
Click to expand...



Am I the only one seeing inconsistencies here?
 
why dont people just try duel daggers and then tell your opinion then /shoo from the thread instead of pointing out small errors on the thread and putting people of trying daggers?
 
yougotcriton said:
Am I the only one seeing inconsistencies here?
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What's your point?



Everything I said.. I do? do I need to list everything I would possibly do in a gulch in 1 post? would that rid them "Inconsistencies"?



Bottom line, Dagger's are viable whatever spec you may choose to play at any particular point. May it be Initiative or Waylay they both serve their purpose in the Gulch.



Man, it's like everyone want's me to convert to Shadowfang's or something.



Has this guide offered a alternative way to play a rogue effectively? Yes.

Did I explain every reason for every choice? Yes.



I don't know why you kid's are so insecure when it comes to a different way to gear a rogue.. it's like you are after a valid reason to sway people from even thinking outside the box. Like I said before and I will say it again.. I think Sword playstyle is BORING. I don't care if it's better overall. It's just not how I play. My guide is here to tell people that there is an alternative. Whether you think so or not there are plenty of people that have tried it and it was more comfortable for them.



Now do something for me Nevertwenty, Grab a dagger enchant it and put it in your MH. Try using backstab and tell me that's not viable. If it's not your thing or it's too much for you then fine take it off and never try it again.. I don't care but don't come in my guide and tell me I'm not right because you will lose.
 
im sure lots of people just like to have SF because it looks good rather than thinking about the stats they get from it
<
 
Alliance :Alliance:

Human > Gnome > Worgen > Night Elf > Dwarf



Horde :Horde:

Blood Elf > Troll > Undead > Orc > Goblin





Yea.... Pretty sure Goblin for dealing with huntards...
 
Maybe after Shadowstep is taken out, but as far as all around utility for a dagger setup i'll keep it where it's at.
 
stillwaters is good if you dont have hit cap but you lose alot of damage if you use it over impish blade/sharpened scarlet kris
 
I personally am liking Dagger MH Sword OH, while the essence and utilization of backstab is still there the OH white swings seem to be doing the job well.



Keeping the basic crit setup in mind just subbing a 1H.
 
Overall this is a very nice guide. Shame people always have to start random rants bout what setup is better to use and what is BiS or not. In the end it all comes down to tactics, skills, personal preference and amount of money / precious moments of your life you are willing to spend on your character. This guide did nothing more then provide useful background information for those interested in level 19 dagger rogues.



Useful stuff so thanks for sharing.
 
I like the part where the Rogue is actually on the EFC : ] Sad thing is that those Rogues that farm mid will probably never read this.



I dunno anything about playing a Rogue, so from a Priest's perspective, the only way a Rogue can kill the FC is if they nuke them within that Sap window or its back to CC and kiting... The faster the better. So this burst spec seems good to me.
 
notoriousthf said:
Do you switch to sword when you evisc (being aware of weapon swing reset)? Or do you chance it hoping for a decent crit?
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No I keep my dagger in the Main Hand at all times and it works out great. Even the energy flow is nicer if you just slow your pace and let the white hits swing before mashing buttons.. it feels more fluent because your managing your energy at 60 instead of 40 so there is always room to kick/gouge/bs for any situation.
 
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