Dirtynines, Developing the meta. A discussion on premade comps and strats.

Snowjobs

Snowjobs

Fluffy
Alright, After the first wargame of the revival I think we finally have a little room to talk about some of the metas, comps, and strats that are popping up.

Lets try an keep the discussions civil and non-flame-atory, If anyone makes a point you disagree with quote away and tell them why u think the point is silly.

This first week we saw jcm running a rot/dot heavy comp vs a real id comprised of mostly mele and non dot classes.

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It seems to me that a BM monk is not enough to prevent swarming from melee comps atm due to windwalk totem as well as higher mobility from most classes.

Classes that have CC that doesn't break on damage are:

WW monk (root plays well with slow from bm but is useless In windwalk windows, and FOF)

Rogue running subterfuge and damage reduc talent ( you can land up to 3 stuns in a subterfuge and the damage reduc after the stun is gone will greatly reduce burst)

Hunter with explosive trap glyph ( knock back and stun multiple targets)

Druid charge (15 sec cd makes it not very reliable)

Paladin (30 sec stun min makes it not reliable)

ele shaman knock back ( TS and a windwalk of its own could be key in not getting swarmed )

Of all those hunter and rogue seem to me the most beneficial as far as swarm prevention

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Healing...

To me a leading comp for heals may be

Disc - undecided on best glyph ( reflect, double cleanse or interrupt immune<---DISCUSS )
Rshaman - ghost wolf or reflective totem
Rdruid ??? - lifebloom helps with purge and most of your spells are instant making you harder to counter, nature ward is huge burst heal with nature swiftness.

Shockadin hpally - could be a 4th healer focusing on shocking with dps burst , denouncing mm hunter or other key targets, stuns , cleanse, and spot healing during inc cc, loh for saves, beacon the bm monk ..... I think this may hold some merit
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Other thoughts / Discussions

CC Demo Lock (leap in + howl of terror) , slow from hand , immolation aura ? discuss viability

BM VS MM hunter ? BM gives water walking plus 10% sp and 5% crit aura (or other auras) which is pretty legit with the right comp. MM has aim shot burst initiation.

Mid field Prot pally (non fc)
shield and hoj heals while absorbing some damage ? - discuss

Prot warrior damage - has anyone tested It ?

Lastly what is your bis dps comp ?
BrM, BM, Enh, Arms, Shadow, Aflic ? Yet again lets discuss that.

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Look forward to hearing all of your opinions. Dirtynines hype!
 
Barbarous said:
brm hunt warrior rog enh shadowprist or magi

fc

rsham disc rsham
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If we keep the 2 of a class rule how do you adjust your comp ? drop rshaman or enh ?

what specs your hunter ?

I feel like a very mobile team may be able to combat this ?

perhaps boomy, fire, Brm , BM, enh, Rogue ?
 
Snowjobs said:
If we keep the 2 of a class rule how do you adjust your comp ? drop rshaman or enh ?

what specs your hunter ?

I feel like a very mobile team may be able to combat this ?

perhaps boomy, fire, Brm , BM, enh, Rogue ?
Click to expand...

Drop rsham for mw, then fixed. You really want that enhance, and mw heals can definitely keep up with rsham and disc. Not sure how mw matches up against rdruid heals, but it definitely outperforms hpally.
 
rdruid fc obviously

rshaman, disc, rsham/MW (depending if you run enhance or not, 2 class limit)

required dps seem to be:

rogue
hunter
BM monk
the other 3 are up for debate, but melee feels stronger than casters (except spriest). burst is still > rot comps

it might be best to limit melee in some way. imo it's really boring to play against with/against melee cleaves, it would make games more interesting if teams are forced to run several casters

maybe a 2 melee limit outside of rogue? idk, just a thought.
 
anatomyx said:
maybe a 2 melee limit outside of rogue? idk, just a thought.
Click to expand...
I would try to limit any unnecessary restrictions. The more restrictions you make, the fewer classes people will be able to play in premades. For example, if you force a 2 limit melee outside of rogues, you now force one of (BM, warrior, enh shaman) off of the island. Say you force enhance off the island, and put the second shaman on resto. You just forced a mistweaver/hpally/rdruid heals off of the island, because of a restriction that had nothing to do with healers. It is good to think about implications of a change, before you actually try to implement a change :D
 
Sudowoodo said:
Melee are infinitely better than casters in this bracket, thats for damn sure.

games felt kinda boring from a healer pov due to that. I felt like I was healing TSG mirrors all night.
Click to expand...

It didn't help that you were running a caster cleave, im sure. However, affliction is so good with UA, I feel that a bis comp will be a melee cleave with an affliction lock.
As far as restricting things for the TC goes, I advise against putting a limit on the number of melee that a team can run. I don't mind restrictions on class/specs, such as no double enhance, no double warrior, no double BM, etc.... but straight restrictions on the number of melee or casters is just silly imo.
To put that in perspective, that is like telling 19 twink teams in the TC that they cannot run a boomkin, warrior, and BM monk in a premade, because those are the three biggest dps in the bracket, so the team has to pick two of three...
 
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Laurenti said:
It didn't help that you were running a caster cleave, im sure. However, affliction is so good with UA, I feel that a bis comp will be a melee cleave with an affliction lock.
As far as restricting things for the TC goes, I advise against putting a limit on the number of melee that a team can run. I don't mind restrictions on class/specs, such as no double enhance, no double warrior, no double BM, etc.... but straight restrictions on the number of melee or casters is just silly imo.
To put that in perspective, that is like telling 19 twink teams in the TC that they cannot run a boomkin, warrior, and BM monk in a premade, because those are the three biggest dps in the bracket, so the team has to pick two of three...
Click to expand...

It's not a bad thing to think about making a melee restriction. Would be a good idea to try and not make the games just a giant melee steam roll. People can level other 39s in a few hours so it's not like if a persons class gets sat out they can't just reroll and gear that toon within a day or two. This would also open up a lot more comp diversity, and a lot more options rather than a generic template that teams more or less used in 19s. The class diversity should be explored rather than just letting melee cleaves run rampant.
 
Laurenti said:
To put that in perspective, that is like telling 19 twink teams in the TC that they cannot run a boomkin, warrior, and BM monk in a premade, because those are the three biggest dps in the bracket, so the team has to pick two of three...
Click to expand...

I see the point you're trying to make but your example doesn't really hit the mark

The main thing is that teams using a bunch of melee make for very simplified strategies since all you're really capable of doing is running at somebody spamming buttons, and people flop to straight up dmg with no cc. It's boring to play that way and it's boring to play against it.

By limiting melee, it means kills have to be somewhat coordinated because you don't have as much instant burst anymore. It opens the door for classes with more cc to shine and help secure kills, and overall a more "skillful" way of playing (hopefully).
 
anatomyx said:
I see the point you're trying to make but your example doesn't really hit the mark

The main thing is that teams using a bunch of melee make for very simplified strategies since all you're really capable of doing is running at somebody spamming buttons, and people flop to straight up dmg with no cc. It's boring to play that way and it's boring to play against it.

By limiting melee, it means kills have to be somewhat coordinated because you don't have as much instant burst anymore. It opens the door for classes with more cc to shine and help secure kills, and overall a more "skillful" way of playing (hopefully).
Click to expand...


This is a fantastic point.

39s have the opportunity to present game play options not available at 19. Figuring out how to fine to those options to create the best atmosphere for competitive play could be pretty damn fun.
 
Laurenti said:
To put that in perspective, that is like telling 19 twink teams in the TC that they cannot run a boomkin, warrior, and BM monk in a premade, because those are the three biggest dps in the bracket, so the team has to pick two of three...
Click to expand...

When you put it that way, I can see clearly why there SHOULD be a limit on melee @ 39 premades.
 
anatomyx said:
The main thing is that teams using a bunch of melee make for very simplified strategies since all you're really capable of doing is running at somebody spamming buttons, and people flop to straight up dmg with no cc. It's boring to play that way and it's boring to play against it.

By limiting melee, it means kills have to be somewhat coordinated because you don't have as much instant burst anymore. It opens the door for classes with more cc to shine and help secure kills, and overall a more "skillful" way of playing (hopefully).
Click to expand...

Melee cleaves still require coordination, and leave plenty of room to showcase a team's skill and coordination in landing kills. If two teams are against each other with mirror comps, heavy melee + lock / whatever, the team with the better coordination, burst, and more importantly CC will win. Rogues are actually stealthed CC bots with damage. Every melee class has an interrupt, classes have slows/utility/stuns, etc. My point is, limiting melee comps does not take the skill out of gameplay. First, you still have to be able to focus targets and react to damage/have positioning to have a chance. An example of this was the positioning of our melee in those games last night. The number of times that I had to chase our warrior/ret/enhance because they were mongoloiding into africa was way too high. This not only put them at risk of dying, but also limited the positioning of their healers. A second example: if moran and I are playing rogues on opposing teams, he will outplay the shit out of me, because he is by far the superior rogue. There will still be a visable skill gap between good players and not-so-good players.

For point #2 , see above in explanation to point #1 . You can't say that if melee are left unlimited, then kills do not take coordination to land, because that simply isn't true. A quick listen-in to any of our teamfights on MVP's vod will exemplify this perfectly :D

And just because why not, opening the door for some specs just shuts the door for others.
 
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Laurenti said:
Melee cleaves still require coordination, and leave plenty of room to showcase a team's skill and coordination in landing kills. If two teams are against each other with mirror comps, heavy melee + lock / whatever, the team with the better coordination, burst, and more importantly CC will win. Rogues are actually stealthed CC bots with damage. Every melee class has an interrupt, classes have slows/utility/stuns, etc. My point is, limiting melee comps does not take the skill out of gameplay. First, you still have to be able to focus targets and react to damage/have positioning to have a chance. An example of this was the positioning of our melee in those games last night. The number of times that I had to chase our warrior/ret/enhance because they were mongoloiding into africa was way too high. This not only put them at risk of dying, but also limited the positioning of their healers. A second example: if moran and I are playing rogues on opposing teams, he will outplay the shit out of me, because he is by far the superior rogue. There will still be a visable skill gap between good players and not-so-good players.

For point #2 , see above in explanation to point #1 . You can't say that if melee are left unlimited, then kills do not take coordination to land, because that simply isn't true. A quick listen-in to any of our teamfights on MVP's vod will exemplify this perfectly :D

And just because why not, opening the door for some specs just shuts the door for others.
Click to expand...
I smell a lil bias in your points because if mele is limited and then somebody takes a double rsham then that means neap doesn't get to heal :0 I could see a honestly I could see a 4 heal Comp being very beneficial at this lvl though an I think some sort of limit to mele would be very cool :0
 
I'm not saying that running a melee cleave takes no skill or coordination at all, just a lot less. It's way harder to actually make mistakes if you have 4-5 melee, all they really can/have to do is tunnel one target and the enhance can throw out a shear onto people.

If you just count down and people press stormstrike/lava lash + chi burst/ keg smash + MS + w/e other melee you have, that's an absolutely insane amount of instant, completely unavoidable damage going into somebody and if a couple things crit you will literally just kill somebody in a global.

Your example of essentially "good rogue outplaying bad rogue" is EXACTLY what I personally would like to see more of in premades. Rogues have such a huge impact in games because they of the amount of CC they provide, and there's a massive outplay factor that goes into the class which is fantastic for premades. However, the same cannot be said for the other melee. Most of them just have their 1 melee range kick, and all they have outside of that is a bunch of damage and some utility depending on the class.

So limiting melee = less instant burst = more ways to outplay/coordinate = more classes viable as a result = more fun overall

I don't see the downside to limiting to 2 melee (+ rogue) at all.
 
Hypothetical limiting of 2 mele

you take rogue
bm
warrior or enh ?
Mm hunt
Choice of 2 casters .

I like that a lot better than BM mm rog enh warrior 1 caster

2 casters makes think we could see things like a lock and Mage chaining fears and polys off each other and juking heals with ua'ing polys to bait a dispel or other crazy plays

I guess what I'm getting at is that I find watching a caster heavy game more entertaining then watching a buncha mele swarm around like bees
 
Anyway to summarize my points, I think we should do whatever we can to get away from the meta of 19 which was basically just landing every kill in mid by killing someone instantly due to lack of cc in that bracket. As someone who did a good amount of 19 premades, that style of play is honestly extremely boring and unrewarding. 39 melee cleaves will be doing exactly the same thing because that's all they can do.

39s have way more options to play and we SHOULD take advantage of that, and limiting melee to force more classes with CC is the best way to go about doing that.

Another thing people have to keep in mind is that we will eventually be doing other bgs such as AB/EOTS since we have mounts here, and by limiting melee there as well, it's going to make games a lot more fast paced. It will be focused way more around actual base play and ninjaing as opposed to team fighting by limiting melee, and once again the outplay factor we should be striving for in premades will be even more prevalent.
 
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