Derailed stream thread / Discussion on past moderation issues

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

it was the repetition for stubs that ever earned him any infractions. Every single post this child has made was an insult. However, he was never banned for insulting anyone. He was banned for creating multiple accounts after he was temporarily banned for going pyscho on Valencia's IRL pictures.

He didn't mention anything about his ban being unjustified in his post so I don't see the relevance there.

If he constantly insulted people prior to his infractions then why did he not get any warnings? I see a single warning in those screenshots and it was handed out after several infractions. I've seen Stubs post worse things and some of them definitely warranted infractions but calling someone bad definitely does not, that's worthy of a warning at best.

That is another reason why the CoC is terrible and requires a moderator with a brain to function properly. I could call you an idiot or I could call you an autistic piece of shit and tell you to kill yourself and both of them would fall under the same category.

 

[Mocha]

Re: 19s Community Streams

He didn't mention anything about his ban being unjustified in his post so I don't see the relevance there.

If he constantly insulted people prior to his infractions then why did he not get any warnings? I see a single warning in those screenshots and it was handed out after several infractions. I've seen Stubs post worse things and some of them definitely warranted infractions but calling someone bad definitely does not, that's worthy of a warning at best.

That is another reason why the CoC is terrible and requires a moderator with a brain to function properly. I could call you an idiot or I could call you an autistic piece of shit and tell you to kill yourself and both of them would fall under the same category.

I didn't mention anything about any infractions or warnings that I had given out. I had brought up the stigma that I banned everyone for zero reason and therefore killed 19 twinking and therefore I deserve to bleed out so I don't see the relevance in him bringing up infractions from nearly 3 years ago.

See now the problem is the infractions that were shown in this thread were in 2013 (same time as yours) when there was a very, very strict 0 tolerance policy. I also am pretty sure that warnings weren't really a thing at that time as infractions are warnings in and of themselves.

My point is if you insult any staff member blatantly and randomly out of the pure spirit of disrespect and anarchy, you're probably going to get banned. That's literally teasing at police and saying "fuck the police" and insulting them to their faces on repeat and then acting surprised when they've had enough and write you a ticket for jay walking...

As I'd mentioned, infractions are warnings in and of themselves. NOW had I banned stubs for calling me bad... that would be a fucking problem. However, I didn't. People need to stop acting like I did, stop telling me to kill myself / slit my wrists and need to stop calling each other cunts, faggots, pussies whatever when still to this day all of the bans I initiated are pretty well justified occurrences where the offender purposely and knowingly took actions that he knew would result in him banning himself.


Edit: I actually highly value the discussion you and I are able to have. Thanks for not simply just going YOU'RE A FUCKING CUNT FAGGOT FUCK YOU NEED TO SLIT YOUR WRISTS YOU FUCKING EMO YOU BANNED MY FRIEND NOW FUCKING DIE. I'm keeping this civil, you're keeping this civil, saxxon is... then Agonist and Stubs come in here and make fine public spectacles on healthy debate by slashing insults at every possible opportunity. It's also quite clear Stubs never learned from any infractions / warnings for him insulting other members as yet here we are again and here he goes again doing exactly that. You see, I've come to learn that Stubs has a type of mental corruptness of some sort to the point where he is simply unable to not insult others.



Look man... every single post this dude has ever made was insulting somebody lol ----> http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2046276

And when something like this occurred in the past, it was common for moderators to initiate one single infraction for a collection of posts.

 

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

I didn't mention anything about any infractions or warnings that I had given out. I had brought up the stigma that I banned everyone for zero reason and therefore killed 19 twinking and therefore I deserve to bleed out so I don't see the relevance in him bringing up infractions from nearly 3 years ago.

See now the problem is the infractions that were shown in this thread were in 2013 (same time as yours) when there was a very, very strict 0 tolerance policy. I also am pretty sure that warnings weren't really a thing at that time as infractions are warnings in and of themselves.

My point is if you insult any staff member blatantly and randomly out of the pure spirit of disrespect and anarchy, you're probably going to get banned. That's literally teasing at police and saying "fuck the police" and insulting them to their faces on repeat and then acting surprised when they've had enough and write you a ticket for jay walking...

As I'd mentioned, infractions are warnings in and of themselves. NOW had I banned stubs for calling me bad... that would be a fucking problem. However, I didn't. People need to stop acting like I did, stop telling me to kill myself / slit my wrists and need to stop calling each other cunts, faggots, pussies whatever when still to this day all of the bans I initiated are pretty well justified occurrences where the offender purposely and knowingly took actions that he knew would result in him banning himself.


Edit: I actually highly value the discussion you and I are able to have. Thanks for not simply just going YOU'RE A FUCKING CUNT FAGGOT FUCK YOU NEED TO SLIT YOUR WRISTS YOU FUCKING EMO YOU BANNED MY FRIEND NOW FUCKING DIE. I'm keeping this civil, you're keeping this civil, saxxon is... then Agonist and Stubs come in here and make fine public spectacles on healthy debate by slashing insults at every possible opportunity. It's also quite clear Stubs never learned from any infractions / warnings for him insulting other members as yet here we are again and here he goes again doing exactly that. You see, I've come to learn that Stubs has a type of mental corruptness of some sort to the point where he is simply unable to not insult others.



Look man... every single post this dude has ever made was insulting somebody lol ----> http://www.twinkinfo.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2046276

And when something like this occurred in the past, it was common for moderators to initiate one single infraction for a collection of posts.

People aren't upset about just the bans, or about just the infractions. People are upset about the entire way you moderated this site. We won't get anywhere in this discussion if you keep looping back to the bans. Infractions lead to temporary bans and if someone receives a 2+ week ban for absolutely nothing they are more likely to consider circumventing it. I speak from experience.

Stubs getting multiple infractions for calling someone bad, Yowza getting one for literally no reason, me getting one for calling someone an idiot. It all adds up. If you constantly hear about someone getting an absolutely unreasonable infraction from Mocha and all of them are aimed towards a specific "clique" of people it is inevitable for those people to question your style of moderation and the motives behind it. I don't think anyone who never had any issues with you would receive the kind of infractions we did. We obviously also received entirely reasonable infractions but some just don't look like they were handed out objectively.

In Stubs' case that was blatantly obvious. You gave him two infractions within 20 minutes, what kind of warning is that? He wasn't even able to see the first one before you handed out the second one unless he literally sat there waiting for it. You also gave him a warning and an infraction two minutes later, same question. And since you mentioned one infraction for multiple posts, you gave him four infractions and a warning in three days. How does that work out?

You can't expect people to be happy with your moderation when you go out of your way to find ways to punish someone who said something negative about you. There is obviously nothing we can do about it if you choose to go and dig through their post history to find something that allows you to give them an infraction (which, with this CoC, is very easy) but you cannot expect them to respect you as a moderator if you target them like that.

 

[Mocha]

Re: 19s Community Streams

People aren't upset about just the bans, or about just the infractions. People are upset about the entire way you moderated this site. We won't get anywhere in this discussion if you keep looping back to the bans. Infractions lead to temporary bans and if someone receives a 2+ week ban for absolutely nothing they are more likely to consider circumventing it. I speak from experience.

Stubs getting multiple infractions for calling someone bad, Yowza getting one for literally no reason, me getting one for calling someone an idiot. It all adds up. If you constantly hear about someone getting an absolutely unreasonable infraction from Mocha and all of them are aimed towards are specific "clique" of people it is inevitable for those people to question your style of moderation and the motives behind it. I don't think anyone who never had any issues with you would receive the kind of infractions we did. We obviously also received entirely reasonable infractions but some just don't look like they were handed out objectively.

In Stubs' case that was blatantly obvious. You gave him two infractions within 20 minutes, what kind of warning is that? He wasn't even able to see the first one before you handed out the second one unless he literally sat there waiting for it. And since you mentioned one infraction for multiple posts, you gave him four infractions and a warning in three days. How does that work out?

You can't expect people to be happy with your moderation when you go out of your way to find ways to punish someone who said something negative about you. There is obviously nothing we can do about it if you choose to go and dig through their post history to find something that allows you to give them an infraction (which, with this CoC, is very easy) but you cannot expect them to respect you as a moderator if you target them like that.

This is all fine, but my moderation has not been an issue in the past year and I haven't been Moderator for a few months now... Why are my thisty ratchet hoes still pulling at my belt today every chance they get?


I guess this all comes down to is that my thirsty side-hoes need to pop off for shit that happened years ago and hasn't happened since / were not issues in the last year of my moderating. I noticed that you guys wanted more lenient moderation and guess what, for the past year you all FUCKING GOT IT yet I'm STILL being blamed for every single thing imaginable even when I stooped down to the Yde 10 strikes you're warned mentality. You guys bitched and I backed off. Yet nobody even acknowledged this besides Pizza and yet everyone is still bitching at me today. I can't even post the score of a PUG game in the bracket queue thread without someone telling me to kill myself. Put yourself in my shoes here and consider how you'd feel.

 

[artonkn]

Re: 19s Community Streams

Hitler hasn't killed Jews for a while but people still blame him.

 

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

This is all fine, but my moderation has not been an issue in the past year and I haven't been Moderator for a few months now... Why are my thisty ratchet hoes still pulling at my belt today every chance they get?


I guess this all comes down to is that my thirsty side-hoes need to pop off for shit that happened years ago and haven't happened since / were not issues in the last year of my moderating. I noticed that you guys wanted more lenient moderation and guess what, for the past year you all FUCKING GOT IT yet I'm STILL being blamed for every single thing imaginable even when I stooped down to the Yde 10 strikes you're warned mentality. You guys bitched and I backed off. Yet nobody even acknowledged this besides Pizza and yet everyone is still bitching at me today. Put yourself in my shoes here and consider how you'd feel.

People still dislike you for what you did but that isn't the most important factor.

What they really hate is that you never admitted that anything was wrong with your moderation. You keep referring to the CoC and how it backed you, you keep telling us how you just followed Shane's wishes. You never accepted any responsibility for the fact that you hurt the bracket or for the unjust punishment you handed out. That is the main problem we have with you.

There were two kinds of moderators: The ones that did what's best for the community and Shane's lackeys.

And as for no one acknowledging the fact that you backed off, you can't be a pain in the ass and then expect a medal for stopping.

 

[Kancer]

Re: 19s Community Streams

I guess this all comes down to is that my thirsty side-hoes need to pop off for shit that happened years ago and hasn't happened since / were not issues in the last year of my moderating.

That's because you had banned everybody at that point.

I agree with everything Saxxon wrote - you cared more about being some goofy moderator on this tiny site, rather than being a fellow twink and queuing to support the bracket.

 

[Mocha]

Re: 19s Community Streams

You never accepted any responsibility for the fact that you hurt the bracket or for the unjust punishment you handed out..

I would say a punishment would be the physical removal of one's privileges... by extension a ban. This is the problem, all of my punishments (bans) were factually justified and backed by the CoC as far as I'm aware. An infraction is not a damn punishment... it's a warning or a ticket. It's a reality check, not a punishment.

I'm not going to accept responsibility when as we made clear, these kids all banned themselves.

 

[Mocha]

Re: 19s Community Streams

That's because you had banned everybody at that point.

This is false.

1) All bans were reversed over a year ago.
2) Oh wait this is the only point that needs to be made.

 

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

I would say a punishment would be the physical removal of one's privileges... by extension a ban. This is the problem, all of my punishments (bans) were factually justified and backed by the CoC as far as I'm aware. An infraction is not a damn punishment... it's a warning or a ticket. It's a reality check, not a punishment.

I'm not going to accept responsibility when as we made clear, these kids all banned themselves.

Okay since you want to split hairs let me rephrase: You never accepted responsibility for the fact that you hurt the bracket and for the unjust actions you took as a moderator.

Also just for the record, giving out 4 infractions within three days is a punishment, it equals a ban.

Bans didn't get reversed over a year ago either as you claim.

 

[Mocha]

Re: 19s Community Streams

Okay since you want to split hairs let me rephrase: You never accepted responsibility for the fact that you hurt the bracket and for the unjust actions you took as a moderator.

Also just for the record, giving out 4 infractions within three days is a punishment, it equals a ban.

Bans didn't get reversed over a year ago either as you claim.

Uh... Shane unbanned everyone twice.... Once two years ago and again last year... Like Silin was still admin back when everyone was unbanned again... that's how long ago that was....


Okay hold on let's resolve this entire thing right here right now.


You can have the opinion that I hurt the bracket. That's a fair opinion to have.

However it's factually clear that I did not "kill" the bracket like 90% of these kids are placing 100% the blame on me for. If I "killed" the bracket then we wouldn't have had pops with me still being moderator. I'd say that's fair to say.



In my opinion, every year between September and December we have a hard time getting pops up until WoD. This was the same time all of these kids created more accounts and banned themselves. At this same time, myself and Noxal organized wargames for a few straight weeks. So in my opinion, no I did not "kill" the bracket and I definitely don't feel as though it was fair to blame me for 100% the reason why we weren't getting pops when every year for the 3 years before then we didn't get pops by the same yearly pattern.


So you can have your opinion. I can have mine. Regardless, I don't deserve to be told to commit suicide (nor does anyone) especially after how we've already lost a 19 twinker due to suicide linked to bullying / cyberbullying. The sad thing is, if I actually did take my own life, you guys would celebrate and treat it like a national holiday.... Over a fucking video game.

 

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

Uh... Shane unbanned everyone twice.... Once two years ago and again last year... Like Silin was still admin back when everyone was unbanned again... that's how long ago that was....


Okay hold on let's resolve this entire thing right here right now.


You can have the opinion that I hurt the bracket. That's a fair opinion to have.

However it's factually clear that I did not "kill" the bracket like 90% of these kids are placing 100% the blame on me for. If I "killed" the bracket then we wouldn't have had pops with me still being moderator. I'd say that's fair to say.



In my opinion, every year between September and December we have a hard time getting pops up until WoD. This was the same time all of these kids created more accounts and banned themselves. At this same time, myself and Noxal organized wargames for a few straight weeks. So in my opinion, no I did not "kill" the bracket and I definitely don't feel as though it was fair to blame me for 100% the reason why we weren't getting pops when every year for the 3 years before then we didn't get pops by the same yearly pattern.


So you can have your opinion. I can have mine. Regardless, I don't deserve to be told to commit suicide (nor does anyone) especially after how we've already lost a 19 twinker due to suicide linked to bullying / cyberbullying. The sad thing is, if I actually did take my own life, you guys would celebrate and treat it like a national holiday.... Over a fucking video game.

I guess I missed that unban wave, huh?

As you pointed out I clearly said "hurt". I don't see why you dedicate the entire post to the few people who decided to exaggerate and say that you killed the entire bracket single-handedly.

Also, since you are looping back to the ban issue again, let me repeat: The issue wasn't just about bans. It was about your entire moderation, including infractions and the way they were handed out, and about the fact that you, to this point, act like nothing was wrong with any of it. You clearly targeted some people more than others and yet you keep insisting that you treated everyone fairly.

We won't get anywhere if you keep focusing on tiny fractions of my posts and ignore the rest.

 

[Flamer]

Re: 19s Community Streams

What accounts are you even talking about? I only ever had another one which I told one of the moderators to ban years ago. I would like a response to my other parapgraph instead of being a fucking coward and cherry picking one thing.

And btw I don't know why you're laughing





Please i'm waiting otherwise don't waste my time.





[

agonist ur getting trolled so hard

 

[Yde]

Re: 19s Community Streams

Hi, I’ve just picked up the yellow fever today, so I’m super rusty. I’m going to explain what I’m doing if I do something for now, so you can complain if you think I’m doing it wrong.




This thread has clearly gone off topic, but since [MENTION=6446]Mocha[/MENTION] participated, I assume he’s fine so far with discussing the past moderation.


I’ll spend separating the entire past moderation discussion from the stream index, move it into a new thread and keep it in the 19s section for now.


That said it can be really stressful for one person to be pushed to justify different actions to different people at the same time and in public. So if Mocha wants to end the discussion, he can either choose not to reply anymore or I’ll lock the new thread if he asks for it, and I’ll ask you to respect that choice.




I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume [MENTION=5141]Myrm[/MENTION]’s hands off policy doesn’t at all include tolerating real life threats or people telling others to kill / harm themselves. Come on. I’ve only read a few of the posts in here so far and have only seen mentions of others doing it, not any of these threats themselves. If I find any occurrence in here it’ll get an edit and infraction right now, anything more will have to wait on the new Twink Charter.


I can imagine having stuff like that addressed at you to be horrible, so please do report anything like that, even if it’s addressed at a person you don’t like. No-one can convince me that it’s essential to free expression.




It seems a lot of the mods are currently unsure where and when to step in, but you’ve seen that Myrm is trying to get a good CoC going for all of us. It’s going to be a good one that includes the important points from the current version, clarifies some points and maybe gives better examples of what is and isn’t acceptable, but until that’s finished, just try to participate in making it the best, and in the mean time try to be excellent.




P.S. Mocha, we didn't have that much moderation overlap, but I'd like to remind you that I was arguing with Shane for a compromise of “three strikes and you’re temp banned" instead of perma banned back then, and not at all “10 strikes and you’re warned.” That’s a bit of a difference right there. :/ And I did get along very well with Shane, since I’m not given to vulgarity or being overly emotional or anything he had issues with in other people. I just stepped down when the actions recquired of a co-admin went very much counter to my principles. I don’t see any phase in the history of TI where you were forced to "stoop down to my mentality."

 

[Flamer]

Re: 19s Community Streams

You take 19s forum shit way too seriously.

Lol he or someone else fucked up which is what tipped me off. I'll still check my old hard drive for that particular screen grab. Every time I caught an IP share I'd screen grab it and post it in staff chat ban reasoning thread lol, so it's probably in one of those threads too unless it happened before we started using the current thread.


Edit: I'm really trying to remember this shit but it was years ago. You had your IP matched to several people actually. I don't even think I took too close attention as to whom it was. All I needed to see was the shared IPs.

Edit2: If I'm not mistaken I believe I actually banned you initially for sharing IPs and then I unbanned you saying I was mistaken and then for a few weeks I just watched your IPs to see if any new ones popped up and then ding, got em again. If you check your inbox and go back I'm sure you can find a notice of me banning you for account sharing before you were given your signature issues.

mhm

 

[Yde]

Alright, the language in here is alternately hilarious and horrifying. I think I'm not supposed to do anything about the vulgarity for now. I found no death threats, but I admit I started skimming after a while, I hope I didn't miss anything. If you do continue this discussion, have fun and stay civil.

 

[Rusks]

Re: 19s Community Streams

This thread is just mocha dodging legitimate questions and accusations. doubt we will ever get a real answer

 

[Arkant]

Re: 19s Community Streams

This thread is just mocha dodging legitimate questions and accusations. doubt we will ever get a real answer

Unfortunately he had to leave just when it got interesting.

 

[Trialdruid]

Mocha I don't understand why you waste time trying to defend yourself..

Most of them aren't going to change their ways or opinion on you and nothing
you do now is gonna revert whatever you did then (whether it was justified or not)

It doesnt matter anymore, it shouldnt matter and according to you it doesn't matter
to you(being involved in 19's community) just let it go, u don't owe them anything
the activity was already in decline even before you took any action

 

[Solipsist]

Re: 19s Community Streams

This thread is just mocha dodging legitimate questions and accusations. doubt we will ever get a real answer

Exactly.