Concerns regarding Twink Cup + Gearing

[Deceptionsz]

So something I've noticed is there's a damage difference between someone with really strong grandfathered gear/enchants. With BFA having no stat templates and grandfathered gear actually showing differences, what are some ways this can be avoided?

I haven't done any testing to back this so it's just number differences I've noticed in watching premades. I strongly think that the twink cup shouldn't be about who has the better gear, should be on what team can outplay the other team.

Granted if your team is good enough should be able to get the W regardless, but teams that have enchants such as +13 SP to bracers or having Inferno Robes, seem to have a decent number difference versus a team that doesn't have these items. (Mainly effecting healing output)

Also another thing I want to note is the hunter scope "Flintlocke's Woodchucker" giving a 70ish Agi proc. Making it so a geared hunter's Aimed Shot hits for 450 give or take, no shield. Line that up as double hunter and a boomkin and something is sure to melt quickly, if not instantly.

I feel like this 'damage only' meta is very poor for tournament and wargame game play. Kills should be coordinated not only by someone saying "go this target", but also with CC on the healer(s).

Just some thoughts after watching today's wargames, "CSF Vs. Mood". I'd like to hear your guy's thoughts as the players who participate in these wargames, as well as the spectators.

 

[Light]

 

[Zappateers]

Im not saying that it's the only or best solution but one option to discuss is to ban all unobtainable gear/enchants in tournaments. This will at least level the playing field

 

[Deceptionsz]

Im not saying that it's the only or best solution but one option to discuss is to ban all unobtainable gear/enchants in tournaments. This will at least level the playing field

I was also thinking that, or possibly having a set gear/enchant list for participants to use, kind of like a tournament realm play style. Equal playing fields, based off skill.
[doublepost=1532901082,1532901052][/doublepost]

Very informative, Light. Thank you for your feedback buddy, appreciated as always!

 

[Trillmatics]

At least four of the characters on my <CSF> roster were created and/or geared in the last two weeks. Nobody has Inferno Robe and only I have +13 sp to bracers. My 19 priest has existed since 2007 and it's a disservice to twinks to consider disallowing grandfathered gear. Do NFL teams ask their veteran pass rushers to dial it back when lining up against a young, inexperienced offensive line? Nah. There are enough twinks from BC and WotLK with plenty of grandfathered equipment-at least enough to warrant the acceptance of it.

The meta certainly is damage-oriented. It may have been hard to notice from the twich stream POV, but our rogue, mage and both priests were landing plenty of CC during our kill attempts. At one point, we had a sap into cheap shot into double fear on monk/disc that warranted a kill. <mood> is a new team with inexperienced players and it showed today. No disrespect toward them but their healer's positioning needs work. They had some solid burst windows on our mage and could have landed at least two kills on our FC with a little more patience and coordination. We certainly made mistakes, even though I have Talbar Mantle

Trill

 

[Deceptionsz]

At least four of the characters on my <CSF> roster were created and/or geared in the last two weeks. Nobody has Inferno Robe and only I have +13 sp to bracers. My 19 priest has existed since 2007 and it's a disservice to twinks to consider disallowing grandfathered gear. Do NFL teams ask their veteran pass rushers to dial it back when lining up against a young, inexperienced offensive line? Nah. There are enough twinks from BC and WotLK with plenty of grandfathered equipment-at least enough to warrant the acceptance of it.

The meta certainly is damage-oriented. It may have been hard to notice from the twich stream POV, but our rogue, mage and both priests were landing plenty of CC during our kill attempts. At one point, we had a sap into cheap shot into double fear on monk/disc that warranted a kill. <mood> is a new team with inexperienced players and it showed today. No disrespect toward them but their healer's positioning needs work. They had some solid burst windows on our mage and could have landed at least two kills on our FC with a little more patience and coordination. We certainly made mistakes, even though I have Talbar Mantle

Trill

Right I also get this too, taking away hard earned gear is really annoying. It's just trying to find an equal balance. I remember watching the twink cup back in cata and everyone who participated had relatively the same gear because gf'd gear (I think, my memory is really bad) wasn't really a thing.

I just feel like templates made it more about teams having skill, than a damage race, that's why I'm suggesting maybe we incorporate our own set of templates for each class. Maybe even gear around toning numbers down so CC actually matters. Cause. in my opinion watching 2 teams just pve rot each other down is extremely boring, and dull gameplay.

On the other hand i'm also a strong believe in gear diversity and seeing the different sets on twinks, so it's really hard to call.

 

[Yapah]

Do NFL teams ask their veteran pass rushers to dial it back when lining up against a young, inexperienced offensive line?

This comparison is idiotic
There is no way to dial back skill, how tf would you even enforce that?
You can dial back gear, which can be enforced

Yes, you have been a twink a long time, you deserve to keep and use your GFed gear. But why not keep that GFed shit in pugs and have fair and even wargames?

 

[Deceptionsz]

Sorry for doubling posting and editing alot, just a lot of thinking.

I also think it's important that class stacking is NOT aloud, with the exception of 2 druids (1 fc / 1 damage). I think it would be very interesting and enjoyable to see things that aren't typically seen in wargames/tournaments and see how players use the 't2' specs to their advantage.

 

[Trillmatics]

It's not idiotic and skill is not the only factor, lmao. Experience, coordination, play-calling, time spent in the weight room, etc. They all warrant advantages when a pro-bowl defensive end lines up against a second-year left tackle. <mood> is an inexperienced team compared to more than half of my roster. They have some talented players with grandfathered gear. It's not the reason they lost tonight. You can't go through life going door-to-door asking people to sign a petition to ban anything that somebody worked hard on before you did.

Electronaut, the second priest on my team, had literally never touched 19's until the middle of this month and is still looking for bis gear from BG crates. He played exceptionally; outhealing me in every game and improving his damage output every time I looked. He's an experienced player I've known since the late 2000's and I knew he could handle it, and he did. Even while lacking spellpower in relation to my priest.

 

[Deceptionsz]

It's not idiotic and skill is not the only factor, lmao. Experience, coordination, play-calling, time spent in the weight room, etc. They all warrant advantages when a pro-bowl defensive end lines up against a second-year left tackle. <mood> is an inexperienced team compared to more than half of my roster. They have some talented players with grandfathered gear. It's not the reason they lost tonight. You won't go through life going door-to-door asking people to sign a petition to ban anything that somebody worked hard on before you did.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, you're comparing irl attributes to pixels. Obviously you have people irl that may train harder than others, increasing their attributes more than other players on the fields, but in wow I strongly feel like there should be some handicaps in terms of at least tournament play, maybe not wargame play.

Equal playing fields just makes far more sense in terms of competitive 10v10's. I'm only suggesting just having a set gear/enchant list, tested by the appropriate people and we gear off that. Thing just NEED to be toned down and now that we're in control of the templates, I strongly suggest we take advantage of it with pre-set rules.

 

[Yapah]

It's not idiotic and skill is not the only factor, lmao. Experience, coordination, play-calling, time spent in the weight room

\

All those involve skill (idk what weight room is tho)

You won't go through life going door-to-door asking people to sign a petition to ban anything that somebody worked hard on before you did.

Bruh you gotta stop with the comparisons, they really aren't your thing. There's a difference between imposing gear restrictions for everyone (aka going door-to-door), and imposing gear restrictions for a wargame (aka a small grp of people) for competitive purposes

 

[Trillmatics]

They arent gear restrictions for everyone-just those of us who were around before Legion . I can think of three priests right now who easily have more grandfathered gear than my priest does and aren't currently, or have ever, been mentioned despite playing in the 2016 TC. All of them.

The games tonight weren't won or lost based on gear by any means. My squad played well against an up-and-coming team. Relax. Tacking on a handful of extra spellpower doesn't keep you alive if you're constantly overextending.

Also, last year we had largely pre-selected templates with the governing factor being iLvl. That meta was the most stale it's ever been. More like a game of tic-tac-toe rather than a real game of WSG.

 

[Deceptionsz]

They arent gear restrictions for everyone-just those of us who were around before Legion . I can think of three priests right now who easily have more grandfathered gear than my priest does and aren't currently, or have ever, been mentioned despite playing in the 2016 TC. All of them.

The games tonight weren't won or lost based on gear by any means. My squad played well against an up-and-coming team. Relax. Tacking on a handful of extra spellpower doesn't keep you alive if you're constantly overextending.

Also, last year we had largely pre-selected templates with the governing factor being iLvl. That meta was the most stale it's ever been. More like a game of tic-tac-toe rather than a real game of WSG.

I strongly disagree, the gear did help a little but if you watch the vods, a lot of your kills were only when either hunter had their scope proc. (or obviously if someone was out of position). I do agree that the team you guys versed wasn't the most coordinated, but gear does matter.

It's no comparison by individual players either by the way, im not nit-picking on a handful, if you have a team with players that have a gear advantage (being gf'd), its for sure going to out weigh a team that is bis as of BFA prepatch.

 

[Trillmatics]

And in MoP, a lot of GSC's kills were when flamer had a chaos bolt on the way. You're arguing against coordinated bursts that have existed in this game since before War Games even existed. Have you ever played 3v3 arena? Guess what, you pop your CDs and go nuts and either kill something or turtle long enough to do it again.

Of course our kills were when hunter had proc. Otherwise you're literally begging for a slow aoe meta based around ooming healers. Not sure if you saw the games but accompanying the scope/aim shot was ALWAYS smites/penances, starsurges, missles etc. This is the closest the meta has been to exciting since I came back to the game. If we slow it down now it will be the most aids mid fights i've ever seen. Zero fun.

 

[Deceptionsz]

And in MoP, a lot of GSC's kills were when flamer had a chaos bolt on the way. You're arguing against coordinated bursts that have existed in this game since before War Games even existed. Have you ever played 3v3 arena? Guess what, you pop your CDs and go nuts and either kill something or turtle long enough to do it again.

Of course our kills were when hunter had proc. Otherwise you're literally begging for a slow aoe meta based around ooming healers. Not sure if you saw the games but accompanying the scope/aim shot was ALWAYS smites/penances, starsurges, missles etc. This is the closest the meta has been to exciting since I came back to the game. If we slow it down now it will be the most aids mid fights i've ever seen. Zero fun.

3v3 is not comparable to a 10v10 setting, first of all. Also the damage coordination you guys had is great, I’m not discrediting you guys on that by any means. It’s just really bad when a person dies and nothing is in cc. You guys were landing kills on people with healers spam healing them, the damage output you guys had was too much for the healing output of 2 disc priests, a mw AND an rsham.

I don’t want to play in a meta like that, just like I’m sure most don’t as well. There’s very little skillcap in coordinating kills in terms of the entire team targeting a player and pressing a damage ability.
This team fight meta is super unhealthy and we can change it if we test numbers and find a good enough stat percentage to where you can land kills, it just requires more than a quarter of a brain to get it done.
[doublepost=1532906163,1532905956][/doublepost]Also to add to your ‘3v3’ comparison. When the 3s bracket was balanced and stuff to land kills it REQUIRED cc. If you didn’t get cc, you didn’t land a kill.
[doublepost=1532906228][/doublepost]Overall I think there should be gear and class stacking restrictions in TOURNEY/TC play.

 

[Trillmatics]

Nobody dies in mid unless there's procs or aoe damage+oom healers. If you want the slow cancer one then thats cool. I like to play fast.

 

[Purj]

What Twink Cup?

 

[Nitten19]

What Twink Cup?

Is it going to happen this time around?

 

[Iild]

is this thread a joke

 

[kidney]

Good god