Blizz rumored to be " Nuking Twinks from orbit " in upcoming TW's

[shanker]

i did 10 TW runs today, with a 10 and a 20

80s were not having problems, their HP bars would rarely dent, i was in groups that did wipe, but that was due to a overpull, people going the wrong way, getting lost, and coming back with mobs on them when the main fight is going on

in past classic TW, even overpulls in strathome would cause full wipes

 

[Zany]

Have just gotten around to doing some TW's on my trusty lvl 20 resto shammy. Changes are noticeable, but I really don't feel nuked from orbit. Have to do quite a bit more healing, and mobs take longer to kill, but I still easily keep the party alive when the tanks mass pull. And I still top the dmg meters at the same time. Haven't tried tanking or melee dps, so that might be another story.

I welcome the change. If anything, I actually feel the TW's are more fun now. And if I never see another 11 warrior "tank" again, that's ok.

 

[Conzil]

I am not the legend, Conzil is the legend

Eyyyy

 

[nuoleb]

I have been testing with two lv11 fury, full ilv60 and from what i see, the stats STR is mandatory. Equipping trinket, head and neck slot don't change health from bosses. Rings with STR stats rise boss health too. I'm trying to get a STR trinket to check now.

Pst: In my tests, i qas using neck from DF rare and helmet from zargamash quest.
Well geared fury (101 STR) = 24k boss health
Two ilv60 weapons, trinkets and rings with no STR, helm and neck (55 STR) ~= 14k boss health

 

[Vaesin]

I have been testing with two lv11 fury, full ilv60 and from what i see, the stats STR is mandatory. Equipping trinket, head and neck slot don't change health from bosses. Rings with STR stats rise boss health too. I'm trying to get a STR trinket to check now.

Join the Discord! What we've found so far (subject to further testing):
* Mob/Boss HP scales with your primary stat. Big jumps at certain breakpoints too.
* Gear without your primary stat doesn't affect the mob/boss HP, *except* for heirlooms. A green +Int cloth shoulder won't change HP for a Fury Warrior, but the heirloom version will.
* Potions also count if they're your class's actual primary stat.
* Secondary stats (Crit / Mastery / Haste / Vers) don't count. Neither do Lifestealing, Shadowlands speed/health gems, and so on.

Amusingly, since the above is scaled to benefit new players and semi-punish twinks, a "naked" twink (TW weapons, DF amulet, TWW rings, little else) is doing pretty well compared to a full decked out one.

 

[Vaesin]

Oh so it's a universal problem and not limited to just a change related to twinking scaling?

Might be a BFA thing, and only specific dungeons. Haven't been one shot as either a "naked" twink or a TW geared one. Had to play attention to mechanics though, and alt-tab to my drag-alongs in one case. (Screw you, Soul Thorns!)

 

[Vaesin]

Has anyone noticed different results on an 11/20 with shit gear, or gear that is otherwise stored in void storage

Does that impact the boss/mob HP at all or just incoming damage?

So far, it only checks the gear you're actively wearing. No regard for what's in your bank, bags, and so on.

Incoming damage does go up, but I'm not sure if it's ilvl or primary stat based yet.

 

[Magrain]

Ran some timewalking with my 20s Warrior and Warlock after 4+ months of inactivity, and honestly, they're the same. I don't see any difference.
Either that or I don't care enough to notice any difference.

 

[Beerloveer]

Ran some timewalking with my 20s Warrior and Warlock after 4+ months of inactivity, and honestly, they're the same. I don't see any difference.
Either that or I don't care enough to notice any difference.

Only difference is that bosses dont take 13 seconds but 33

 

[cletus]

Join the Discord! What we've found so far (subject to further testing):
* Mob/Boss HP scales with your primary stat. Big jumps at certain breakpoints too.
* Gear without your primary stat doesn't affect the mob/boss HP, *except* for heirlooms. A green +Int cloth shoulder won't change HP for a Fury Warrior, but the heirloom version will.
* Potions also count if they're your class's actual primary stat.
* Secondary stats (Crit / Mastery / Haste / Vers) don't count. Neither do Lifestealing, Shadowlands speed/health gems, and so on.

Amusingly, since the above is scaled to benefit new players and semi-punish twinks, a "naked" twink (TW weapons, DF amulet, TWW rings, little else) is doing pretty well compared to a full decked out one.

This is all really good info.

I suspect something like this might happen based on how Blizzard altered scaling in MoP Remix. Players figured out they got stronger by deleting their jewelry (which they could buy back at any time). So silly.

Is this new scaling just TW? Or is it affecting TBC dungeons too?

So it seems like you want to find good trinkets with no +Primary and good effects and jewelry with no +Primary (which also have higher secondary stats).

Some mob abilities seem to not be scaling. We saw the same thing when Blizzard redid Tank and TW balance with absolutely zero testing in the TWW prepatch. I had level 10-11s who would sometimes get hit for 500k+ damage. IIRC Vazruken in Hellfire Ramparts did this (and I think still does!). The second boss in Gundrak had this problem too. Some other random trash did as well. That was on eof the complaints: you couldn't do big pulls because you were playing one-shot roulette with casters.

I really wish you could upgrade gear from old expansions, even old patches.

 

[SPQR]

Naked apart from trinkets, rings and feets, cloak for speed enchant seem to be a go to move.
30% less boss hp at 10.
100% less boss hp at 20.
wrong armor type might be a play aswell.

10 monk with x2lifesteal can pull 4 packs with ease. when tank trinkets proc still a god mode on.
apart from clearly broken 1 shot spells that will be fixed this all just as expected - a degen fix for degen issue.

Recuperate with no gcd or cooldown is a peak idiocracy.

 

[toskosa]

I will absolutely never run dungeons with just weapons and rings equipped, idc if its faster that shit is whack.

 

[Chops]

I will absolutely never run dungeons with just weapons and rings equipped, idc if its faster that shit is whack.

its as ugly as wearing high ilvl white gear to cheese legion templates

 

[Zly]

its as ugly as wearing high ilvl white gear to cheese legion templates

lol, i still have that gear in my bank, just in case
The only way they could balance time walking is take gear out of the equation, which is what they did. Sucks for fast leveling and just blowing stuff up occasionally.
They actually seemed to have done a decent job of it. At level 80 gear still matters enough that people aren't losing their minds.

There are some serious scaling issues they missed on incoming damage, fire in KR does 9k damage at level 10 and 9k damage at level 80

 

[cletus]

Naked apart from trinkets, rings and feets, cloak for speed enchant seem to be a go to move.
30% less boss hp at 10.
100% less boss hp at 20.
wrong armor type might be a play aswell.

10 monk with x2lifesteal can pull 4 packs with ease. when tank trinkets proc still a god mode on.
apart from clearly broken 1 shot spells that will be fixed this all just as expected - a degen fix for degen issue.

Recuperate with no gcd or cooldown is a peak idiocracy.

This would be classic Blizzard. Every time they try and do ilvl scaling, it's always a disaster. Always.

They could pretty much just solve this "problem" (of the "fun detected" variety) by lowering the ilvls of some key gear. TBC/WotLK dungeon gear from 30 -> 20 (at 11) and TW gear from 60 to 30. Mechagon rings too. And maybe lower gems from +4 Agi/Int and +2 Primary/Secondary to +2 and +1 srespectively. They kinda did this in DF when they dropped WoD dungeon gear from 42/56 (non-Warforged/WF) to 24/29.

Here's another thought: I wonder if the system is dumb enough to look at your spec's primary stat and you could get around this by choosing a spec with a different primary stat and just using whatever ability is key from the general tree.

I'm thinking of classes like Druid (Agi/Int), Monk (Agi/Int), Paladin (Str/Int), etc.

Now generally speaking gear designed for such classes will have both specs Primary stat but that's not always true.

it also depends on how abilities scale. Like Spinning Crane Kick: does it scale with Int as MW and Agi as BM/WW? I would guess that it does but has it been tested?

There are some items I'd actually like from BFA TW on some alts but if I can't rerun dungeons it's just not going to happen. I'm thinking of the Balefire Branch from Waycrest Manor and there's a H/M shield from Atal'dazar (most shields are +Vers, which isn't ideal for Ele/Resto Shaman).

 

[Zly]

Dagnabit! Why did you have to mention Balefire branch, i wasnt planning on running any timewalking but now i need that on my priest and druid. Doesn't really matter as the on use is the thing but ilvl!

 

[Vaesin]

This is all really good info.

I suspect something like this might happen based on how Blizzard altered scaling in MoP Remix. Players figured out they got stronger by deleting their jewelry (which they could buy back at any time). So silly.

Is this new scaling just TW? Or is it affecting TBC dungeons too?

So it seems like you want to find good trinkets with no +Primary and good effects and jewelry with no +Primary (which also have higher secondary stats).

Some mob abilities seem to not be scaling. We saw the same thing when Blizzard redid Tank and TW balance with absolutely zero testing in the TWW prepatch. I had level 10-11s who would sometimes get hit for 500k+ damage. IIRC Vazruken in Hellfire Ramparts did this (and I think still does!). The second boss in Gundrak had this problem too. Some other random trash did as well. That was on eof the complaints: you couldn't do big pulls because you were playing one-shot roulette with casters.

I really wish you could upgrade gear from old expansions, even old patches.

This just affects Timewalking. Went into TBC dungeons to grab weapons (to test if weapon DPS mattered - it doesn't), and mobs had 375 hp or something similarly tiny.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier - Attack Power does *not* affect scaling, and Spellpower likely doesn't either.

I'm going to start with limiting an 11 Fury twink to 62 Str, then trading over +Agi/Int leather/mail to fill in blanks. Mob HP scaling starts accelerating around 62 Str. I've attached a file with what I found and posted on Discord.

 

[Vaesin]

Here's another thought: I wonder if the system is dumb enough to look at your spec's primary stat and you could get around this by choosing a spec with a different primary stat and just using whatever ability is key from the general tree.

I'm thinking of classes like Druid (Agi/Int), Monk (Agi/Int), Paladin (Str/Int), etc.

You just made me realize how much better Fury Warriors have it now. Warriors only have one primary stat, Str, and it's normally never seen in lower gear - all of which a warrior can wear! Loads of secondary stats with no mob-scaling +Str on cloth, leather, or mail.

On the other hand, a Mistwalker Monk can only downgrade to cloth, and it nearly always has their primary stat, Int.

...which (just theorycrafting) might make TBC gear better in the end for MW Monks. I think you'd get better overall stats from, for example, 2 ilvl 30 TBC pieces, each with gems and +3 Int, compared to a single ilvl 60 with +6 Int and a white piece of gear (to avoid the scaling).

 

[parry10359]

is leech inside tw working different (stronger)?

 

[Lizzandra]

Have you guys noticed any difference? Just tried my 11 fury and a lvl 50 ret and both were still really good in the BFA TW dungeons. Shrine of Storms had some spells not scaling properly that one-shot my lvl 11 a couple of times, but overall damage still seems really good.

Yeah..one-shot several times on different toons on stuff that is almost unavoidable