EU+US BiS 19 Rogue Gear?

Snack said:
I don't think you are right, I think there are simply something wrong with the Sicimater and Brushwood Blade, since every other weapon follows the pattern of slow > fast. And I havn't heard anyone say that the 34 bow gives a notable dmg increase in instanced PvP compared to the 24 ilvl bow
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So did a quick test. Equipped several weapons mainhand without changing any other items. So when using lower ilvl weapons, my average ilvl went down by 1. Looked at the tooltips for both ambush and SS - both provide the same rankings.

Swords: Heirloom Sword > Sinister Scimitar > Shadowfang > ilvl 24 invasion axe > thrash blade heirloom
Daggers: Jagged Wing Slasher > ilvl 34 invasion dagger > Talon of Vultros > Heirloom 1.8 dagger = ilvl 24 invasion dagger > 1.7 heirloom dagger

So things mostly followed the attack speed, with a few exceptions. Sinister scimitar is worse than the heirloom weapon, but better than shadowfang. Thats pretty weird. Items may be scaling based on their rarity (so sinister scimitar weapon damage is based on its attack speed as if it was a green level item at 24), as both shadowfang and the heirloom weapon are "blue" level weapons. Just another possible theory that needs to be tested.

For daggers, the ilvl 34 invasion dagger is in the wrong place as far as attack speed goes. This proves that the damage isn't only based on weapon speed - as its otherwise identical to the ilvl 24 dagger that didn't do so well. The jagged wing slasher takes the cake (by far) - which is possibly because even a white ilvl 24 dagger with that speed is crazy. Note that the jagged wing slasher was below ALL the swords, including the thrash blade (2.4 attack speed) and other 2.6 weapons. Which might also point to the weapon quality mattering. I'll do more testing with a larger set of weapons later on.

For now. The 2.8 heirloom weapon is BiS as far as obtainable items go, unless the ilvl 34 axe is better (I've heard it isn't, but don't know for sure as I don't have it). The sunstrider axe is probably better - but the ability to get it is in question. For daggers, Jagged Wing Slasher MH and TF invasion dagger are BiS. After the invasion goes away, either talon (if the offhand damage applies to mutiliate or something) or the heirloom dagger for stats.
 
OK I also ran some tests. I was wearing my high ilvl set including pendant and 2x rock, as Outlaw spec. Damage numbers were not affected weather I had lily or ilvl 34 dagger in OH.

Ambush
-Loom-693
-Scimitar-678
-Shadowfang-670

Saber Slash
-Loom-412
-Scimitar-402
-Shadowfang-397

Run Through (5 CP)
Loom/Scimitar/Shadowfang-1,210

I found it interesting Run Through was the same across the board...
 
Chey said:
I read somewhere (sorry can't provide source) that grey and white gear will be considered an empty slot in legion, only green and up items will count towards stat template.
Maybe they are doing some stealth work on this?


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I know Dexa on here has mentioned that multiple times. So we would be losing pendant, 2x rock, and lily (if you use it) if that happens.
 
Chey said:
I read somewhere (sorry can't provide source) that grey and white gear will be considered an empty slot in legion, only green and up items will count towards stat template.
Maybe they are doing some stealth work on this?


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It might happen. But it might not. It isn't in yet or officially announced. The two white weaponss are still BiS, so no stealth things yet.

If it does happen, then lily gets lost in favor of furbolg pouch. Rings become argas and BG box. Neck becomes the voice amplification thing (made with engineering, doesn't require engineering). The sunstrider axe and jagged wing slasher may or may not be useful still depending on how weapon damage works (white items may not contribute ilvl, but still might be best damage, which is more important than .1% stats or w/e).
 
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Anyone have an ilvl 34 axe they could post numbers for? I have a feeling I'm way past getting Sunstrider Axe at this point. I prolly sold it or didn't get it when I lvled this twink years ago.
 
Did another set of whatever odd weapons I had in the bank, as well as a green 1.8 dagger and green 2.8 mace.

The 2.8 mace was better than anything slower than it except for shadowfang at 2.7. I'm thinking that the weapons damage range comes into play, as SF's damage range is absurdly high (nearly the same as the 2.8 heirloom).

Looking at some random other weapons. Thief's blade and Stinging Viper are both 2.6 weapons, but Stinging Viper does a slight bit (+3 on ambush) more damage. The reason why is probably because Stinging Viper has a range of 13-26 where the Thief's Blade has 13-25. Thief's blade is lower ilvl (by 1), so it would theoretically scale better - but its still worse. Which means that range is probably preserved. Skeletal Club has a range of 15-29 and is ~10 more damage on ambush.

Daggers look like it as well. The invasion dagger is identical to the heirloom dagger with 10-20 damage and the same ambush. Assassin's blade is 9-18 and 7 ambush damage less, despite being the same speed.

Its not simply the average of the range, as jagged wing slasher has the lowest numbers, but is still good. So something might be scaling still. But when everything else is the same, minor differences in that range result in minor differences to ambush damage. Those ranges tend to follow the ilvl of the weapon pretty well, so it'll be really old or unique weapons that weren't caught in blizzard's wave of trying to normalize weapons a while back (pandaland?). Thats why shadowfang has been the best weapon since vanilla - its stat allotment isn't in line with most weapons, giving it the same weapon damage as a standard 2.8 speed item, while keeping the faster 2.7 speed (in addition to a high agility and on-hit). Most normal weapons can't compare. Same reason Talon of Vultros scales so well - its stats are above the norm for its ilvl.

That being said, something is scaling (or being forced to match the template) in regards to weapons. Sunstrider axe and jagged wing slasher wouldn't be giving such good values otherwise. Their damage range probably also doesn't fall in line with the standard items - meaning that when their weapon damage is brought up to par with whatever blizzard is doing, its pretty out of control.

Sinister scimitar (and probably brushwood blade) are on the other side. They are a bit slower, but their stats/damage range aren't as good as the current template. Thats why they are kinda confusing, even though they should be better damage.

So basically weapon damage is somehow being scaled or templated. Most weapon damage is based on speed and ilvl. The exceptions tend to be older items who got missed by the ilvl templating. For the most part, speed and ilvl will determine the ranking of a weapon. But some old-school weapons might pop up as much better than expected.
 
Arkant said:
~50 more Cobra Shot damage.
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That's a pretty big difference right? Even in %
Chey said:
I read somewhere (sorry can't provide source) that grey and white gear will be considered an empty slot in legion, only green and up items will count towards stat template.
Maybe they are doing some stealth work on this?


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Just something Dexa threw out there
Jêroylenkins said:
Sunstrider Axe:
Ambush = 749
Saber Slash = 444
Run Through = 1,210
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That's a huge difference as well, compared to all the weapons that @necroaqua tested.

And I find it hard to accept that weapons might be scaling, since that would go against everything that Blizzard has implemented with the prepatch. I could accept that they hadn't normalized weapon speed yet, so the speed on your weapon was the only stat-related thing that could affect your dmg, but if the range in dmg, or the dmg of a weapon compared to its ilvl matters as well, it's just fucked up.
 
Snack said:
And I find it hard to accept that weapons might be scaling, since that would go against everything that Blizzard has implemented with the prepatch. I could accept that they hadn't normalized weapon speed yet, so the speed on your weapon was the only stat-related thing that could affect your dmg, but if the range in dmg, or the dmg of a weapon compared to its ilvl matters as well, it's just fucked up.
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Its not quite that weapons are scaling, but rather theres a stat template for weapons that is based on your weapon damage. Theyre trying to make it pretty even in BGs - so they have to do something. The choice of weapon makes a difference, so have they have to respect the speed and damage of the weapon you're using. Its very weird and made a lot more sense when everything was scaling. I'm betting a lot of the slight differences in weapons (all the 2.6 attack speed weapons with 5-10 damage differences on ambush) were even when the scaling patch was in effect.
 
Ogre said:
anyone using lily? Seems like it would work, why don't we use it? Am I missing something?
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You *might* be able to squeeze in another ilvl or so for .1% extra stats. But you lose all of your offhand white damage. Which is more than .1% of your damage.
 
necroaqua said:
You *might* be able to squeeze in another ilvl or so for .1% extra stats. But you lose all of your offhand white damage. Which is more than .1% of your damage.
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I'm pretty sure you would lose alot of dmg since you wouldn't have any OH hits?....
 
WOOH GOT MY TF AXE. But unfortunately, it isn't better than the heirloom.

So here's what I figured out:
  • The TF Axe (34) is only 5 points of damage behind with ambush. So its REALLY damn close (may be worth the swag factor).
  • The WF Dagger (29) is tied for damage with Talon of Vultros. This might be helpful in determining how any scaling might work. Sizable ilvl difference, as well as an attack speed and range difference. I might math at this a bit later.
  • I don't have the WF Axe (29). If someone posts the numbers (while you are outlaw, in BG, and have 99 agi) - I'll add it.
  • It looks like breakpoints are a thing. Increasing agi by 1 increases ambush by 3 damage, however adding ilvls until I hit that point did not increase the damage at all. If it was using decimals and rounding, the damage should have bumped by 1 three times as I increased ilvl - it only made the 3 jump when my displayed agi went up by 1.
  • The Jagged Wing Slasher is nearly 100 damage more than the TF Dagger. Definitely get it MH for going sub/ass.
  • For invasions, use sub/ass loot spec to try for the 34 dagger. It will be the best offhand for all 3 specs and the heirloom sword is better than the TF Axe.


Outlaw: Sunstrider* > Heirloom 2.8 sword/mace > TF Axe > Sinister Scimitar > SF > Jagged Mace (2.8 speed ilvl 24 green) > WSG Sword > Invasion Dagger = Stinging Viper
Sub/Ass: Jagged Wing Slasher > TF Dagger > Talon of Vultros = WF Dagger > Heirloom 1.8 dagger = Invasion Dagger

*Not my numbers, but almost undeniably the best.
 
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Good to know in not missing out on the TF axe. I switched loot spec to get my 2x TF daggers but haven't gotten WF or TF axe to drop since switching back. Only 2 pieces to go now. Three if I count the axe.


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