Agi vs Stam/HP Stack Rogue?

Where did you get those numbers? Why is fiery DPS multiplied by 0.9225? LS is 180 per minute, 140/60 would equal 2.66, why are you reducing the number from 2.33 to 1.96? Why is 15 AGI giving a rouge 22.5 AP when it gives 1 AP per AGI, why do you assume 60 DPS? Why is crusader listed as 150 AP it gives 100 STR which is 100 AP for a rogue, why do you assume all 15 seconds are useful each time, why do you multiply it by 0.6 at the end?


Here's how I decided Lifesteal was the best in most situations : ) Generally I do more damage when I'm alive and weight survivability and damage pretty equally. In many fights if I live longer, then I'm more likely to kill them.

Lifesteal and Fiery have 6 PPM, Crusader is 1 PPM.
In a fight I attack with my main hand 1.675 times per 2.7 seconds. (Math supplied later)
And 1 time with my off-hand per period of time.

Fiery adds a base of 40 damage * 6 procs = 240 damage per minute / 60 seconds = 4 DPS
Lifesteal adds a base 30 damage + healing * 60 procs = 180 damage per minute and 180 heals per minute = 3 DPS + 3 HPS
Crusader adds 100 healing + 100 attack power for 15 seconds per minute. If we assume you stay glued to the target 80% of each proc and it never procs while up it will give: 100 * DPS Value of AP (we will use 0.191, math explained later) * 15 seconds per minute * 0.80 (80% usage) = 229.2 damage per minute / 60 = 3.82 DPS + 100 healing per minute / 60 = 1.67 HPS

AGI is complicated but here's what I computed for my stat values on the damage side:

Agility = 0.2735 DPS
1 Attack Power = 0.191 DPS
0.1316% Critical Strike Chance = 0.1316 * 0.627 DPS = 0.0825 DPS


Now we can compare each enchant:

Main Hand
Fiery = 4 * 1.675 DPS = 6.7 DPS
LS = 3 * 1.675 DPS + HPS = 5 DPS + 5 HPS
15 AGI = 15 * 0.2735 DPS = 4.1 DPS
Crusader = (3.82 DPS + 1.67 HPS) * 1.675 = 6.4 DPS + 2.79 HPS

Off-Hand
Fiery = 4 DPS
LS = 3 DPS + 3 HPS
15 AGI = 4.1 DPS
Crusader = 3.82 DPS + 1.67 HPS


With those it's easy to see main hand you want something that procs, LS wins in the off-hand if you value HPS at greater than 1/3rd of the value of DPS : )


Since you included some math on how you arrived at your computed values for AGI, I thought I should supply more of how mine numbers were derived : )


Sinister Strike costs 40 energy talented, 20 energy generated per 2 seconds, 1 SS per 4 seconds. 2.7 (Shadowfang swing time) / 4 = 0.675 bonus attacks per standard swing.
14 attack power = 1 dps

32.69 DPS main hand (+3 DPS lifesteal)
15.20 DPS off hand (50%) (+3 DPS lifesteal)

35.69 * 1.675
18.20 * 1
10 * 0.25 (SS damage bonus)
_______________

80.48 DPS (before crit)

1 Attack Power = 0.191 DPS (1/14 DPS * 2.675)
1% Crit = 0.627 DPS (80.48 / 100 = 0.8048 / 1.28 (@28% crit))

________________

As an addendum the math above I realize assumes the target has no damage reduction from armor, the fundamentals of how physical damage is computed don't change based on enemy armor and let's us accurately compute the % damage increase even though the exact damage output will vary based on enemy armor.

What this means is the damage increase for Fire and Shadow damage is almost always understated since it isn't reduced nearly as much.
Cennix adjusts 15 agi and 100 str to 22.5/150 to account for offhand damage which benefits from AP at 50% value there for 150% total value.

You need a total DPS value to accurately calculate crits value so I assume he picked 60 because it is about as much as his rogue has.

The multipliers for Fiery/LS adjust damage for resistance.

The 60% multiplier adjusts damage for armor.

Your math only works against naked targets while his takes actual gear into account.

Also @Cennix jfc your math is worse to look at than my post from last night even if its correct :/

Sinister Strike costs 40 energy talented, 20 energy generated per 2 seconds, 1 SS per 4 seconds. 2.7 (Shadowfang swing time) / 4 = 0.675 bonus attacks per main hand swing.


To get the values for Crusader and AGI we will need to do some more math, I used my values with standard buffs but no world buffs:

14 attack power = 1 dps


32.69 DPS main hand (+3 DPS lifesteal)
15.20 DPS off hand (50%) (+3 DPS lifesteal)


35.69 * 1.675
18.20 * 1
10 * 0.25 (SS damage bonus)
_______________


80.48 DPS (before crit)

1 Attack Power = 0.191 DPS (1/14 DPS * 2.675)
1% Crit = 0.627 DPS (80.48 / 100 = 0.8048 / 1.28 (@28% crit))



Agility is worth: 0.2735 DPS
1 Attack Power = 0.191 DPS
0.1316% Critical Strike Chance = 0.1316 * 0.627 DPS = 0.0825 DPS

Also this part is really wonky and makes no sense.
 
Last edited:
I have since cleaned up my post and clarified many things : ) I hope you'll know be able to follow all the math and verify my conclusions.
 
Don't worry, my post is in response to your edited post.

I also missed the fact that you are calculating the strength from Crusader as agility when it should be treated as AP.
 
Last edited:
Don't worry, my post is in response to your edited post.

I also missed the fact that you are calculating the strength from Crusader as agility when it should be treated as AP.


Opps... good catch I did list the wrong value for that. It's now been corrected, thank you : )
 
The whole AP/Agi > DPS calculation is still really wonky and doesn't make any sense though :/
 
The whole AP/Agi > DPS calculation is still really wonky and doesn't make any sense though :/

You weren't wrong... I went back and fixed multiple mistakes in there. Thanks for proofreading it! Please try looking at it again, I hope it's now more clear and logically reasonable : )
 
Where did you get those numbers? LS is 180 per minute, 140/60 would equal 2.66, why are you reducing the number from 2.33 to 1.96? Why is 15 AGI giving a rouge 22.5 AP when it gives 1 AP per AGI, why do you assume 60 DPS? Why is crusader listed as 150 AP it gives 100 STR which is 100 AP for a rogue, why do you assume all 15 seconds are useful each time?


Here's how I decided Lifesteal was the best in most situations : ) Generally I do more damage when I'm alive and weight survivability and damage pretty equally. In many fights if I live longer, then I'm more likely to kill them.

Lifesteal and Fiery have 6 PPM, Crusader is 1 PPM. Proc chance scales with weapon speed. So auto attacks will match this rate.
Sinister Strike costs 40 energy (when talented), 20 energy are generated every 2 seconds, so you can perform 1 SS per 4 seconds. 2.7 (Shadowfang swing time) / 4 = 0.675 bonus attacks from Sinister Strike per main hand swing.


14 attack power = 1 DPS to the main hand weapon, 0.5 DPS to the off-hand weapon, and 0.675 DPS extra due to Sinister Strikes = 2.175 DPS * (1 + Critical Strike %)
1 Attack Power = 0.155 DPS * (1 + Critical Strike %)


To get the value for 1% of physical critical strike chance is a little more complicated. We will need to determine total physical damage output, divide it by 100, and then divide it by amount of critical strike chance we already have. For now I will use the values listed on my character sheet with no world buffs:

32.69 DPS main hand * 1.675 main hand attacks
15.20 DPS off hand
10 Sinister Strike Rank 3 Damage Bonus * 0.25 Sinister Strikes per second = 2.5 DPS

Total: 72.46 DPS (before crit)

1% Crit = 0.566 DPS (72.46 / 100 = 0.7246 / 1.28 (@28% crit))


Agility is worth: 0.273 DPS
1 Attack Power = 0.155 * 1.28 (@28% crit) = 0.198 DPS

0.1316% Critical Strike Chance = 0.1316 * 0.566 DPS = 0.0745 DPS


Fiery adds a base of 40 damage * 6 procs = 240 damage per minute / 60 seconds = 4 Fire DPS


Lifesteal adds a base 30 damage + healing * 6 procs = 180 damage per minute and 180 heals per minute = 3 Shadow DPS + 3 Shadow HPS

15 Agility * 0.273 per Agility = 4.1 Physical DPS

Crusader adds 100 healing + 100 attack power for 15 seconds per minute.
If we assume you stay glued to the target 80% of each proc and it never procs while up it will give: 100 * 0.198 * 15 seconds per minute * 0.80 (80% usage) = 237.6 damage per minute / 60 = 3.96 Physical DPS
And of course 100 healing per minute / 60 = 1.67 HPS


We are nearly ready to compare each enchant : ) For the comparison below I will list the type of DPS and then I will use Cennix's defense weights against a bear tank to adjust the end result into a standardized DPS score.

Armor: 40% damage reduction (Multiplier 0.60)
Magic: 8% resist (Multiplier 0.9225)


Now we can compare each enchant:

Main Hand
Fiery = 4 * 1.675 DPS = 6.7 Fire DPS * 0.9225 = 6.2 DPS
LS = 3 * 1.675 DPS + HPS = (5 Shadow DPS + HPS) * 0.9225 = 4.6 DPS + HPS
15 AGI = 4.1 Physcial DPS * 0.60 = 2.46 DPS
Crusader = (3.96 DPS + 1.67 HPS) * 1.675 = 6.6 Physical DPS * 0.60 + 2.79 HPS = 4 DPS + 2.8 HPS

Off-Hand
Fiery = 4 Fire DPS * 0.9225 = 3.7 DPS
LS = 3 Shadow DPS + HPS * 0.9225 = 2.8 DPS + HPS
15 AGI = 4.1 Physcial DPS * 0.60 = 2.46 DPS
Crusader = 3.96 Physical DPS * 0.60 + 1.67 HPS = 2.4 DPS + 1.7 HPS


With those it's easy to see you want something that procs in your main hand. If you value HPS at greater than 1/3rd of the value of DPS Lifesteal wins : )


Addendum: For simplicity I left off the survivability portions of Agility, I might as well quickly list it's expected value, but will skip the detailed breakdown unless someone requests it.

Each AGI gives 0.2633% Dodge valued at 0.25 Stamina (assuming 45% of damage taken is melee, 45% ranged, 10% magic) + 2 Armor valued at 0.09 Stamina. So 15 AGI = 5.1 Stamina or 51 HP



If you play rogue objectively or competitively I don't see why you would value HPS > DPS at all.
First of all generally speaking an FC has peelers, roots, healers and so forth, not to mention constantly on the move and trying to lose you. So as Cennix already stated the window you get to apply damage is minimal.

Your sole purpose as a Rogue is to connect, and apply as much damage as you possibly can into that small time you get. So your HPS is an opportunity forgone in this scenario. Also when you take into consideration in a 10v10 Scenario the Enemy Team generally speaking has almost 0 damage in defence and operate purely to kite, heal and separate you from the FC. Which can often be the case in pugs too, but harder to predict.
HPS is again not needed, considering you generally have a Priest on O, or other utility classes which can top you up from the minimal damage.

So as a Rogue, who plays objectively? then your BiS is very clear, x2 Fiery weapon. Literally no competition or arguements; Kill FC? Fiery Weapon.

Gear wise, there is 2 further options, you can actually get more DPS if you stack AP bonus rather than Agi/Stam, Iv got a set like this but unfortunately gives 650-700hp. Pretty much a meme Glass Cannon build, but it really does put the damage in when you don't need to worry about your hp. Used to use that in premades, and still never really died due to lack of damage on Defence.

Only gear option I might rate over DPS for killing an FC is, resistance. If you can resist the slows, roots and fears, then you theoretically connect for a while longer, which lets you put more damage in. So gimping DPS for Resistance is acceptable.




So again as Cennix said, if you want to play objectively, Fiery is by far superior in every way.
If you want to play the Dodge game vs Rogues/Hunters, then buy a 2nd set with AGI.
 
classis wow obviously is not van wow

in van wow, and TBC
lifestealing was 6ppm. 30 fire damage, 30 heal (in van wow originally 30 shadow damage)
fiery was same as LS, no heal

in van wow, dodge and dodge scaling from agility was not what it became in TBC.

fiery came into power in WOTLK, blizz did some stealth buff on procs or damage

in van wow and TBC it was more common to stam stack, use LS, Crusader, and +15 agi more in TBC. the old twink site prior to twink info, majority of rogue builds went stam focused 100hp helm, 100hp to chest, and 100 to fang legs van wow or agi/stam leg armor TBC

movement in stealth was slow, and stealth was not to the level you have in retail. rogues not pointed were easy to see in stealth trying to set up their hopeful BS, rogues doing this were a liability to the team spending to much time in stealth. on my warrior, i could see 2-3 trying to set up, i would attack one, keep moving, kill 1 or 2, where is they just opened attacked at start would have wiped me
 
Last edited:
I have since cleaned up my post and clarified many things : ) I hope you'll know be able to follow all the math and verify my conclusions.

While I can appreciate the effort...most of these calculations were unnecessary.

Why does factoring in sinister strikes help?

You can work out the bonus damage on white hits from each enchant and that's all that's needed.

Sinister is, for mathematical purposes, just white hits with a fixed bonus damage added on (which remains the same for each enchant and none affect haste or ability usage etc). So it doesn't really change anything in terms of comparing the enchants.

It gives you more realistic numbers if that's what you're after I guess. But then Crusader uptime is never going to be 100% so that goes out the window anyway.

The main discrepancy between our posts is that I'm taking LS to be 4.667ppm - whereas you're taking to it to be 6ppm. Some suggest it's 4.5ppm but I cba collecting new data to confirm when I barely play classic anymore tbh.

I trust the source and even with your ppm figure it wouldn't change the fact I'd still use dual fiery in most circumstances if my goal was to win as many of my games as possible.
 
I think in the end it really is simple and comes down to this:

Which do you value more in your setup?

+30 Heal or +10 Damage per proc



I haven't ever been able to justify going 100% offensive. I just think things like +4 Stamina beat out +4 Strength on my gloves, I prefer +9 stamina to +9 Strength as a bracer enchant, ect. I find if I stay alive better I keep all my buffs and maintain the highest kill potential. I go in with over 2k HP fully buffed and a ton of damage. When the going gets tough I like a little time to think and maneuver; the survivability gives me that. When I need more damage I can pop Thistle Tea and really bring the pain.

But to each their own : )


As to PPM I've seen quite a number of sources that claim 6 PPM including wowhead and wowwiki.
 
I think in the end it really is simple and comes down to this:

Which do you value more in your setup?

+30 Heal or +10 Damage per proc



I haven't ever been able to justify going 100% offensive. I just think things like +4 Stamina beat out +4 Strength on my gloves, I prefer +9 stamina to +9 Strength as a bracer enchant, ect. I find if I stay alive better I keep all my buffs and maintain the highest kill potential. I go in with over 2k HP fully buffed and a ton of damage. When the going gets tough I like a little time to think and maneuver; the survivability gives me that. When I need more damage I can pop Thistle Tea and really bring the pain.

But to each their own : )


As to PPM I've seen quite a number of sources that claim 6 PPM including wowhead and wowwiki.

I don't think anybody would ever consider swapping stam for str on rogue. Agi gives damage, but also comes with some survivability as well.
 
whats the conclusion?

If you wouldn't take Strength over Stamina, don't take Fiery over Lifesteal. If you're an immortal twink who just need an extra couple DPS take Fiery.

For real though, you're picking +30 Heal or +10 Damage per proc.
 
BTW if you google LS proc / Fiery Proc, There is a wowhead comment that says 6PPM, thing is just an extract from a comment on Wowhead, but for some reason is displayed as an answer on google. there is no conclusive evidence to show LS is same as fiery.
 
wowwiki, a wowhead comment, any number of other forum posts throughout the web.
And there is a mention of proc rate being fixed at some point (quite possibly from the unintended lower rate.)
Finally there is common sense, usually Blizzard picks a whole number or reasonable fraction for proc rates, not conclusive, but certainly compelling.


If someone wants to do some hard testing that would probably be useful though : )
 
How about.. Fiery is an external force assisting my godly rogue thus gimping his godliness?

To simplify, my dagger does damage not the fiery mages on my dagger.

To simplify further, green looks better. Don't even get me started about purple.

Agility is the color of a rogue's blood, I could never defect to orange. And everyone who disagrees is a mage. Renounce your identity for some damages.

I'm sorry, were we still doing the math on this?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top