Agi vs Stam/HP Stack Rogue?

Discussion in '19s (Vanilla)' started by iLennie, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. iLennie

    iLennie Member

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    Hey All,

    In TBC I favored stacking agi vs hp, but I know dodge scaling is a bit different in classic.

    What are your thoughts on +8 agi librams on legs/head and +15 agi MH vs +100 HP librams and fiery/LS MH?

    I'm playing alliance so I suppose tunic of westfall vs blackened defias can come into play (have both). Thoughts on this as well?

    I should mention I'm mostly just solo queuing as I'm NA on a server with limited twinks. Running agi stack right now, but wondering if I'm gimping myself (doesn't feel that way really, but curious to see what others think). I do have a 2nd SF w/ fiery for warrs/bear form.
     
  2. Ryotenchi

    Ryotenchi Grandfathered

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    Alliance, Def High Agi. Especially if you know how to abuse the dodge cone.

    If you can afford to do both, do both! Some lobbies you will want to rock double fiery and stamina set. Stam set also helps if you are a competent FC as.. rogues often can grab flag and pass it to whoever is setup to mitigate several people attacking them at once. I usually dont break out my stam set unless there is a lot alot alot of casters and dots or I want to fuck off with my crusader enchants.

    As for gimping yourself with agi set.. You are collecting 20 stam fort and Mark of the wild buffs right as well as Rum and food?

    Another thing to note.. If the lobby is heavy melee or enemy rogues are rocking agility enchants themselves.. Yeh will want max agility to be able compete with them and hope they dont get lucky with a string of hits. Otherwise.. as I understand it.. fiery cant be dodged so it can get around their high dodge chance. With full buffs, missing my 8 agi helm arcanum as I dont have fishing hat still, I can hit 55% dodge chance. But a max geared agi rogue will still destroy yeh in seconds if they are competent.. if you arent yourself matching them on enchants. To a point, the agility enchants out weight skill.. and even bads can be tanky af and position poorly, while still completely destroying the enemy with extreme ease.. I rip on huntards for being a braindead class.. them and mages.. but damn can rogue be just as brain dead.

    Last note: Once you have max agi, I recommend an Ass blade with +5 weapon damage for those sweet high ambush crits and buttstabs. Though noting that I have not tested double agility ambush/buttstabbing to know definitively which is better.. Its on my list to test. (I find often that baddie rogues will pop evasion and keep running forward, thinking they can dodge from behind.. I like to Ambush, Buttstab, Thistle tea, Buttstab, Eviscerate.. which often leaves people with a sliver of hp.. but scares the ever living shit out of them!)

    Glad to see another rogue out there GITTING GUD! So many, soooo so so many face rolling bads!
     
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  3. Anexa

    Anexa Member

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    I go with nearly max agility on a Night Elf, but I still use x1 hp libram to keep it over 1000 hp. Because I remember how much of an impact the https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=27572/smitten buff had to me before I had any libram enchants.

    I don't regret going "glass cannon" for a single day, because the dodge chance makes up to it. I have stamina gear enchanted and all that, but I never swap off https://classic.wowhead.com/item=2041/tunic-of-westfall for https://classic.wowhead.com/item=10399/blackened-defias-armor - not even as flag carrier.

    Not a fan of fiery weapon either. Lots of dodge chance being wasted
     
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  4. Symandria

    Symandria Grandfathered

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    What I've found is you want HP until about 1200 HP, run lifestealing enchants (they are best for both hands in most all real world situations), after that you can stack damage : ) If you have too low health you die too fast to be useful, past that extra hp offers diminishing returns. Usually you'll be able to get more % survivability than % damage, so the trade off is worth it till you can reduce how often you die to a reasonable rarity : )
     
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  5. Ryotenchi

    Ryotenchi Grandfathered

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    GLASS CANNON FTW!! =^.^=

    Once I someday get my fishing hat, I was planning to run my Wrangler's wristbands of stamina (5). I abuse the shit out of my dodge, but often wont show up without at least an ony buff.. as I chase them ambush crits with my +5 ass blade.

    I was hoping to setup my horde rogue with Double lifestealing and double fiery.

    So stack medium high agi, but roll lifestealing? Im gonna set up my 2nd 19 rogue with both for sure then! Double lifestealing sounds like sweet fun. (Also I cant prove it, but I swear lifestealing procs fang COH and vice versa.)
     
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    iLennie

    iLennie Member

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    LS both hands? I can't see this as being viable.
     
  7. Ryotenchi

    Ryotenchi Grandfathered

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    Anything is viable when your opponent/opponents are dogshit regardless of gear/enchants. I routinely beat people down with a farmer's broom on my warrior.
     
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    iLennie

    iLennie Member

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    Optimal then I guess is what I mean.
     
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  9. Cennix

    Cennix Member

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    Personally I stack max agi/AP (2 x 8 agi libs also) and still roll with double fiery in most circumstances. Imo you already have evasion for when dodging matters, and well you can't dodge frostbolts, frost nova's, nature's grasp, fears, sheeps, bomb gouge/bomb clip combos or hamstrings during charge stun, so there's not really any argument for 15 agi MH outside of RvR 1v1s, since in terms of damage fiery is something like double the added dps of 15 agi.

    If I'm chasing a decent druid FC, possibly with any of mage/hunter/priest on def then surviving isn't the problem - killing them is. dual fiery is by far the highest dps...you've got a pretty small window to make something happen after which the peels or heals will inevitably come in and the window is gone. In my offensive set I have 991hp as Nelf. Those are typically the hardest games, so I gear primarily for that and I think ur doing the right thing there.

    If I'm killing a hunter or rogue FC I'll switch the offhand for a +15 agi assassins blade just for higher dodge chance so I don't get clipped or gouged with evasion up and hammer throw my pc into France.

    Then if I'm FCing, or crossing without the intention of engaging, I'll use LS/15 agi with general stam switches, such as BDA with +100hp, 100hp on second pair of fang legs etc.

    So you're definitely not gimping yourself using high agi, except on your MH enchant imo.
     
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  10. Anexa

    Anexa Member

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    Thing is majority of lvl 19 twinks are rogues, then hunters - where dodge chance matters. Fiery weapon won't counter the CC's you listed either, so I don't get the point of even using it as an argument.
     
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  11. IhazBankz

    IhazBankz Pwner

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    Seeing anexa quote and still miss the point I actually dont know anymore if hes legit trolling or just dumb.

    Cennix has it right, agility gear stack with double fiery for most dps. You want to do as much damage as possible in the small window you may sometimes get, as the main role you should be doing is efc killing (not trying to fight rogues 1v1 or fighting mid like some heroes from this thread)
     
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  12. Arkant

    Arkant Freedom~

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    ok so its really easy if u want to do most dmg in short window u use agi gear and wear fiery then when a hunter or warr or rogue tries to cc u u can swap to agi weapons to dodge said cc and then u can swap back to fiery when ur trying to blast again without worrying about dodge

    someone buy me a period key thanks
     
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  13. OP
    iLennie

    iLennie Member

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    I mean, yes and no. Anexa is correct in saying dodge chance IS valuable against the majority of people in the 19's bracket.

    All of this said, are we sure fiery out damages dual +15 agi?
     
  14. Greenmtnboy

    Greenmtnboy Member

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    Off topic.... is it too late for me to start a19/level to max at classic or is it pointless this far into the game? Sorry to ask but from reading this thread it’s obvious everyone is in the know. Thank you all!
     
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  15. Cennix

    Cennix Member

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    If neither 15 agi or Fiery helps to avoids the majority of CC, then it makes sense to pick the enchant that does the most damage - that's the point of using it as an argument lol.

    And the CC's that 15 agi worth of dodge does help against can be avoided at crucial times when you turn into neo for 15 seconds with that bigass button called evasion. At 90%+ dodge during evasion it makes sense to use dual fiery in most circumstances, which contributes over twice the dps that +15 agi enchants do.

    We're never going to agree though because I'm looking at it from the PoV of playing wsg objectively and having end product & winning games. Whilst you're looking at it from the PoV of being a midfarmer with wbuffs that drools over percentages on your character stat page - as your signature on this site shows.

    For your special case though, fiery loses value when you stack wbuffs relative to 15 agi. Since fiery is fixed dps whereas the crit from agi becomes more valuable when you have double the AP. So yeah +15 agi probably works out well for you and anyone else who stacks wbuffs before a bg.

    - Fiery = 4 DPS*0.9225 = 3.7 DPS
    - Lifestealing = 140/60 = 2.330.84 = 1.96 DPS
    - 15 Agility = 151.5 = 22.5 AP /14 = 1.6 DPS + 2% Crit over 60 DPS = 1.2 DPS = 2.8 DPS * 0.6 = 1.68 DPS
    - Crusader = 100 AP*1.5 = 150 AP/14 = 10.7 DPS/4 = 2.675 DPS * 0.6 = 1.61 DPS

    Bad use of equals...I know :D

    That's the dps on a typical bear druid. Change the 0.6 multiplier on 15 Agi and Crusader based on the targets armour. (if a target has 25% mitigation, change it to * 0.75). I explained my reasoning behind why I mainly care about dps on a druid in my previous post.

    Also, since offhands miss more, 15 agility has the advantage of providing stats that benefit your mainhand hits and sinister strikes along with some dodge % even when your OH doesn't hit (whereas the other enchants can't proc on a miss). But as you can see from the calcs, it's still going to be way below fiery dps even factoring that in.

    If I'm killing a hunter or rogue FC which inevitably are common in pugs due to their overrepresentation, I'll sometimes switch my offhand for a +15 agi assassins blade just for higher dodge chance. I don't want to eat some freak clip or gouge with evasion up but it really depends on how much hp the target has and who else is around.

    Paladins, warriors, other hunters, shamans, mages all have tools which can change which ench is best in the situation.

    tl;dr get both, make switch macros and pay some attention until it becomes second nature to just switch on the situation. If you stack wbuffs, elixirs and all that jazz then just camp +15 agi.
     
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  16. OP
    iLennie

    iLennie Member

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    TY for dmg breakdown. Makes sense. I've got a 2nd SF so I'm probably going to slap fiery on it for when burning high armor FC's. Probably just going to avoid getting a 2nd ass blade for now cause i'm lazy.
     
  17. Ryotenchi

    Ryotenchi Grandfathered

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    I just gave out a budget rogue twink to a kid I met who seemed pretty interested in 19s pvp. So no its not too late. But you have a long grind ahead of yeh if you want to complete one.. expensive enchants and all.
     
  18. Greenmtnboy

    Greenmtnboy Member

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    Is there a bc expansion coming? Just wondering if it will all change again.
     
  19. Ryotenchi

    Ryotenchi Grandfathered

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    sopposedly? I know they focus grouped it.. But I dont know anything for certain.. and tbh.. Im not looking forward to it. I know classic will die eventually.. but I got a good thing going on here.. away from the nerfs.
     
  20. Symandria

    Symandria Grandfathered

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    Where did you get those numbers? LS is 180 per minute, 140/60 would equal 2.66, why are you reducing the number from 2.33 to 1.96? Why is 15 AGI giving a rouge 22.5 AP when it gives 1 AP per AGI, why do you assume 60 DPS? Why is crusader listed as 150 AP it gives 100 STR which is 100 AP for a rogue, why do you assume all 15 seconds are useful each time?


    Here's how I decided Lifesteal was the best in most situations : ) Generally I do more damage when I'm alive and weight survivability and damage pretty equally. In many fights if I live longer, then I'm more likely to kill them.

    Lifesteal and Fiery have 6 PPM, Crusader is 1 PPM. Proc chance scales with weapon speed. So auto attacks will match this rate.
    Sinister Strike costs 40 energy (when talented), 20 energy are generated every 2 seconds, so you can perform 1 SS per 4 seconds. 2.7 (Shadowfang swing time) / 4 = 0.675 bonus attacks from Sinister Strike per main hand swing.


    14 attack power = 1 DPS to the main hand weapon, 0.5 DPS to the off-hand weapon, and 0.675 DPS extra due to Sinister Strikes = 2.175 DPS * (1 + Critical Strike %)
    1 Attack Power = 0.155 DPS * (1 + Critical Strike %)


    To get the value for 1% of physical critical strike chance is a little more complicated. We will need to determine total physical damage output, divide it by 100, and then divide it by amount of critical strike chance we already have. For now I will use the values listed on my character sheet with no world buffs:

    32.69 DPS main hand * 1.675 main hand attacks
    15.20 DPS off hand
    10 Sinister Strike Rank 3 Damage Bonus * 0.25 Sinister Strikes per second = 2.5 DPS

    Total: 72.46 DPS (before crit)

    1% Crit = 0.566 DPS (72.46 / 100 = 0.7246 / 1.28 (@28% crit))


    Agility is worth: 0.273 DPS
    1 Attack Power = 0.155 * 1.28 (@28% crit) = 0.198 DPS

    0.1316% Critical Strike Chance = 0.1316 * 0.566 DPS = 0.0745 DPS


    Fiery adds a base of 40 damage * 6 procs = 240 damage per minute / 60 seconds = 4 Fire DPS


    Lifesteal adds a base 30 damage + healing * 6 procs = 180 damage per minute and 180 heals per minute = 3 Shadow DPS + 3 Shadow HPS

    15 Agility * 0.273 per Agility = 4.1 Physical DPS

    Crusader adds 100 healing + 100 attack power for 15 seconds per minute.
    If we assume you stay glued to the target 80% of each proc and it never procs while up it will give: 100 * 0.198 * 15 seconds per minute * 0.80 (80% usage) = 237.6 damage per minute / 60 = 3.96 Physical DPS
    And of course 100 healing per minute / 60 = 1.67 HPS


    We are nearly ready to compare each enchant : ) For the comparison below I will list the type of DPS and then I will use Cennix's defense weights against a bear tank to adjust the end result into a standardized DPS score.

    Armor: 40% damage reduction (Multiplier 0.60)
    Magic: 8% resist (Multiplier 0.9225)


    Now we can compare each enchant:

    Main Hand
    Fiery = 4 * 1.675 DPS = 6.7 Fire DPS * 0.9225 = 6.2 DPS
    LS = 3 * 1.675 DPS + HPS = (5 Shadow DPS + HPS) * 0.9225 = 4.6 DPS + HPS
    15 AGI = 4.1 Physcial DPS * 0.60 = 2.46 DPS
    Crusader = (3.96 DPS + 1.67 HPS) * 1.675 = 6.6 Physical DPS * 0.60 + 2.79 HPS = 4 DPS + 2.8 HPS

    Off-Hand
    Fiery = 4 Fire DPS * 0.9225 = 3.7 DPS
    LS = 3 Shadow DPS + HPS * 0.9225 = 2.8 DPS + HPS
    15 AGI = 4.1 Physcial DPS * 0.60 = 2.46 DPS
    Crusader = 3.96 Physical DPS * 0.60 + 1.67 HPS = 2.4 DPS + 1.7 HPS


    With those it's easy to see you want something that procs in your main hand. If you value HPS at greater than 1/3rd of the value of DPS Lifesteal wins : )


    Addendum: For simplicity I left off the survivability portions of Agility, I might as well quickly list it's expected value, but will skip the detailed breakdown unless someone requests it.

    Each AGI gives 0.2633% Dodge valued at 0.25 Stamina (assuming 45% of damage taken is melee, 45% ranged, 10% magic) + 2 Armor valued at 0.09 Stamina. So 15 AGI = 5.1 Stamina or 51 HP
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020

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