EU+US 70 Tanking, stam vs damage reduction

Chey

Chey

Legend
So as usual I have been messing around with gear sets and casual math.

Have had the chance thanks to That Seventies Show to do some raids recently and noticed there is a lot of over healing on fights.
Also the cause of healer ooming is from raid damage not tank damage taken. This may of course be because the tanks are bis damage reduction, but would the overhealing off set with more stam?

How good is ilvl once you around the 160 mark? Is it still 1% reduction per ilvl past that point? I tried testing this in game but it was impossible to get accurate numbers from hits taken, it is all over the place.

Basic thought process
Bear sets
Versa set
163 ilvl
40%vers
32k hp

Stam/Agil
158 ilvl
10%vers
52k hp

(could have more stam but with the agility I off set the damage increase from Versa)

Versa set has 25% more potential damage reduction.

So take a 20k damage window
Versa
20k minus 25%= 15k
32k-15k left with 17k
Stam/Agil
52k-20k left with 32k

I understand the math dose not work like that, but there is a lot of fights where stam is actually important. Sheer for example.
Iam not totally convinced on ilvl/Versa builds, I think there is somthing in the theory but have nothing to back it up just yet.

Iam not talking about 5man stuff btw, talking about the scenarios most of us will actually have the opportunity to participate in which is your 10-15 man/lady groups.


Thoughts
 
32,000/(1-.20)
Total Effective Health: 40,000

52,000/(1-0.5)
Total Effective Health: 54,736


So the stamina set is better. you lose the extra damage though, which would cause things to live longer... But if you want a pure tank monster and your dps is doing the killing I'd go stamina. If you have gems slot Stamina/Vers would probably be the best option but you can use that formula to find out.

That's not everything, there are other mitigation's that should be factored in, like dodge. Put AFAIK passive dodge isn't that important. High haste to get your talent off cooldown is best. Armor is big, you can put that % in the denominator of that fraction, just like vers. You'd want to check that if you had the choice of an armor kit vs a vers chant, or something like that.

Not sure how the ilvl factors in, I've heard it does but I have no idea how to calculate that one...
 
Less stamina = less to heal for the healers. In other words, the more you just block, avoid, diminish, the less the healers have to heal.

If you have 10k hp, and take 2k per hit, you'll take 5 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 40% of your hp.
If you have 30k hp, and take 4k per hit, you'll take 8 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 13% of your hp. Your healers will have much more trouble to heal that back up: using more mana and time to heal you up.
Thus, mitigation is better for your healers.
[doublepost=1519182354,1519182150][/doublepost]
Hashbrowns said:
Not sure how the ilvl factors in, I've heard it does but I have no idea how to calculate that one...
Click to expand...

Current ilvl - 115 = X% amount of damage less taken from opponent hits. x*5/3= y% more damage and healing done. (for 70s)
 
Hashbrowns said:
Whats 115, the base for that level? The same as the BoA ilvl then?
Click to expand...

115 is indeed the base item level. A BoA is 147 if I remember correctly, I'm not sure. But 115 is the base item level for level 70s. Basically the item level of rare drops in dungeons before 7.3.5 was a thing :p
 
Shinela said:
Less stamina = less to heal for the healers. In other words, the more you just block, avoid, diminish, the less the healers have to heal.

If you have 10k hp, and take 2k per hit, you'll take 5 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 40% of your hp.
If you have 30k hp, and take 4k per hit, you'll take 8 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 13% of your hp. Your healers will have much more trouble to heal that back up: using more mana and time to heal you up.
Thus, mitigation is better for your healers.
[doublepost=1519182354,1519182150][/doublepost]

Current ilvl - 115 = X% amount of damage less taken from opponent hits. x*5/3= y% more damage and healing done. (for 70s)
Click to expand...
Yeh that was always my thinking too, but like I say the amount of over healing is very large. I believe that with the highly geared healers the same heal that would over heal would now just top up the stam tank.
 
Chey said:
Yeh that was always my thinking too, but like I say the amount of over healing is very large. I believe that with the highly geared healers the same heal that would over heal would now just top up the stam tank.
Click to expand...

This is what happens when healers run too many intellect gems. If they overheal a tank in vers gear, they'll overheal a DPS in.. well, dps gear.
Running haste could result in more heals cast for AoE moments, crit could do a double heal without needing the int. If you run int crit, you're just overdoing it. If you don't run int and do run crit, hey, it feels good :p

edit: I failed at english at my last sentence. Don't judge, I'm only human. Or am I a dancer? My sign is vital, my hands are- I'll shut up.
 
@Chey I've had 65k unbuffed for the last 5-6years on my blood dk. This pve set has always been psycho. I'm not pedantic about other stats or scaling.. I don't even really understand it, by my gear/stat combo has always been op as
 
Shinela said:
Less stamina = less to heal for the healers. In other words, the more you just block, avoid, diminish, the less the healers have to heal.

If you have 10k hp, and take 2k per hit, you'll take 5 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 40% of your hp.
If you have 30k hp, and take 4k per hit, you'll take 8 hits to die. But the healers heal 4k. So one heal is 13% of your hp. Your healers will have much more trouble to heal that back up: using more mana and time to heal you up.
Thus, mitigation is better for your healers.
[doublepost=1519182354,1519182150][/doublepost]

Current ilvl - 115 = X% amount of damage less taken from opponent hits. x*5/3= y% more damage and healing done. (for 70s)
Click to expand...
Yea but their job is to keep you alive not keep you at 100% full. Taking 8 hits to kill you vs 5 isn't a bad thing. I'd still go stamina IMO. You really want to look at Total Effective Health because there are infinite "what if" situations you can run into.
[doublepost=1519186755][/doublepost]
Shinela said:
115 is indeed the base item level. A BoA is 147 if I remember correctly, I'm not sure. But 115 is the base item level for level 70s. Basically the item level of rare drops in dungeons before 7.3.5 was a thing :p
Click to expand...
Hmm what if you could get an ilvl of 215... you would take 100% less damage?
 
The fact that stamina gives you more effective health than versatility has been well known for a long time. But the value of effective health goes down drastically after a certain point. It's only there to act as a buffer - to give your healer more time to react to damage spikes.

Like Shinela mentioned, high health with low damage reduction is very mana-inefficient for your healers. Overhealing or not, it's undeniable that it takes a lot more mana to heal a stamina stacked tank.

Chey said:
How good is ilvl once you around the 160 mark? Is it still 1% reduction per ilvl past that point?
Click to expand...
Kind of. Each avg ilvl adds one percentage point to the damage reduction modifier.
So, let's say your ilvl is 150 and you take 35% less damage as a result.
To keep it really simple we'll say something is hitting you for 1000, meaning you take 650 damage.
If we add 1 avg ilvl to your gear, your new reduction modifier is 36%, meaning you take 640 damage. So in effect you're actually taking ~1,5% less damage than before. This is because adding 1 percentage point to an existing modifier isn't the same as adding a new modifier of 1 percentage. You see the opposite happening with the damage/healing modifier from ilvl where the effective percentage increase goes down slightly as your ilvl increases.
Hashbrowns said:
Hmm what if you could get an ilvl of 215... you would take 100% less damage?
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First of all that would be impossible since the highest ilvl reachable at level 70 is 170. But I think, and I could be wrong, that the reduction hardcaps at 80%. Perhaps @Aelobin could verify that.

Chey said:
Iam not talking about 5man stuff btw, talking about the scenarios most of us will actually have the opportunity to participate in which is your 10-15 man/lady groups.
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I don't see any reason why the best tank builds would differ in these situations. Also are you saying ladies can't participate in 5 man content?? wtf man
[doublepost=1519189641,1519189295][/doublepost]Nvm, now that I think of it, one big difference between 5 man and 15 man content is the fight lengths. So I guess for 15 man content you can just build super mana-inefficient tank builds and still be fine. I just like the idea of optimizing for the most challenging situations, I guess.
 
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Onlydreams said:
I don't see any reason why the best tank builds would differ in these situations. Also are you saying ladies can't participate in 5 man content?? wtf man
[doublepost=1519189641,1519189295][/doublepost]Nvm, now that I think of it, one big difference between 5 man and 15 man content is the fight lengths. So I guess for 15 man content you can just build super mana-inefficient tank builds and still be fine. I just like the idea of optimizing for the most challenging situations, I guess.
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Bahaha got me, u crack me up m8. Pretty sure you guys do use a Lady for your 5 "player" stuff sometimes. Overlooked that first call, my apologies lady's.

Yeh I assumed lower size groups are more reliant on tank contributing to damage as opposed to larger groups.

Would like to talk more once iam off work about this.
 
Shinela said:
This is what happens when healers run too many intellect gems. If they overheal a tank in vers gear, they'll overheal a DPS in.. well, dps gear.
Running haste could result in more heals cast for AoE moments, crit could do a double heal without needing the int. If you run int crit, you're just overdoing it. If you don't run int and do run crit, hey, it feels good :p

edit: I failed at english at my last sentence. Don't judge, I'm only human. Or am I a dancer? My sign is vital, my hands are- I'll shut up.
Click to expand...

even with 0 int gems the overhealing on tanks with 30-35k health is still huge.
part of the reason for this is having more than 2 healers though.
 
ShinyHero said:
I would say 40k HP the rest Versa but that’s just my experience plus you shouldn’t listen to me haven’t played in awhile anyway so what do I know :)

Hope this helps
Click to expand...
Yeah 40k is way too much btw
You only need like 32-33k hp
 
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