39 Rogue changes

[Cliche]

Please read this in more detail, there were counter arguments to each point. I'm sick of people going with the mongoose argument, without actually, THINKING, about it. The thinking with pvp crit is flawed, people need to re-look at it, the same with resilience, there is a point where in most scenarios it is actually hurting you to go for more. I mean it is common sense that for every point of crit there is less noticable difference, but having played at very high crit levels on my 80 druid i can assure you anything above 30% is a waste - heck with wracking pains i had up 52% crit at one point. You look at combat table figures and it just does not add up, i was no where near critting 1 in 2.



The difference beteen 15 - 20% is huge, you are critting 33% more. 20% to 25% is no longer feasible as a rogue, i will not drop below 2500hp. Garotte is a viable opener on most targets now, and per energy is MUCH better than ambush, particularly on retadins - your hardest opponent. Ofc, i would take the cheapshot on the opener in a 1v1 situation. I feel i have to state the obvious in every single fucking post, otherwise, someone has to say something ridiculous. Crit does not depend on hit, hit just makes more space on the combat table for crits, if the hit is high enough, more crits can be pushed onto the table. Relentless strikes is just TOO expensive per point, that is why i aim for more balance and rely more on my garotte - which is unmitigated by armour. Where else can i get a 650 DOT, which stops bandaging, regardless of armour, for 25 energy?

Your first paragraph doesn't address my post at all, you're just restating things. The reason you don't crit every other hit is because 1. There is a crit cap 2. You will crit less if you are not hit and expertise capped(this is why I said your crit caps dependent on your hit - if you dont have enough hit crit will stop being useful until you get more). And then I have no idea what this whole opener deal is about, I didn't mention it.

Where else can i get a 650 DOT, which stops bandaging, regardless of armour, for 25 energy

Relentless strikes + rupture. Except its 0 energy and ticks faster.

Think of relentless strikes as this : Your kidney shot expose armor and rupture now cost 0 energy and eviscerate costs 10. This is not about damage, it is about your ability to control a target. This means less downtime and more time building up combo points/doing damage while you can cc your target. It's almost like arguing that you don't need camouflage since you could get more damage with your garrote instead. You need camouflage.



Also, garrote has a very slow tick, every 3 seconds which is enough to heal 2250 health. If your argument for using garrote is that it stops bandages, well rupture + garrote is the best way, garrote alone is pretty easy to avoid. The best way to rupture is to have a free rupture. The problem with bleed kiting paladins is that their spells can't be 5-8 kited and those spells still hit way too damn hard. I was thinking that you have to force a bof AND vanish a hammer to be able to beat a good pally and then you still need prep.

As a nightelf you should be able to ambush + Shadowmeld + sap and then open up with something else

 

[elesian]

Your first paragraph doesn't address my post at all, you're just restating things. The reason you don't crit every other hit is because 1. There is a crit cap 2. You will crit less if you are not hit and expertise capped(this is why I said your crit caps dependent on your hit - if you dont have enough hit crit will stop being useful until you get more). And then I have no idea what this whole opener deal is about, I didn't mention it.







Relentless strikes + rupture. Except its 0 energy and ticks faster.

Think of relentless strikes as this : Your kidney shot expose armor and rupture now cost 0 energy and eviscerate costs 10. This is not about damage, it is about your ability to control a target. This means less downtime and more time building up combo points/doing damage while you can cc your target. It's almost like arguing that you don't need camouflage since you could get more damage with your garrote instead. You need camouflage.



Also, garrote has a very slow tick, every 3 seconds which is enough to heal 2250 health. If your argument for using garrote is that it stops bandages, well rupture + garrote is the best way, garrote alone is pretty easy to avoid. The best way to rupture is to have a free rupture. The problem with bleed kiting paladins is that their spells can't be 5-8 kited and those spells still hit way too damn hard. I was thinking that you have to force a bof AND vanish a hammer to be able to beat a good pally and then you still need prep.

As a nightelf you should be able to ambush + Shadowmeld + sap and then open up with something else

Unbelievable...i did address it. As mentioned there was space on this godamn combat table. All the variables were factored in, it just doesn't work out. Unless the crit cap is 25%.



Think of it like this. I lost 3% crit over 2.5 seconds of free energy. Having that extra 25 energy makes no difference to control. It makes no difference to my stunlock AT ALL. I've got 2/3'rd of another hemo in after my KS, or perhaps a 2 point rupture, oh wait, now i can't blind, so essentially i have 25 energy off a 2 point evis, and 2/3's of a hemo. Wonderful. And i'm critting 16% less. Doesn't seem so great now? Honestly, you take the crit all the way. 5 points is just too expensive - if it had of been 3 points, maybe, but 5 points is excessive. Per point imp garrote is much, much better.



You will not get ooc from smeld and stealth until 6 seconds are up, if you are in combat.



The only way to take on a pally is with cds, it cannot be done without evasion or disarm or blind. The aura alone takes 40% of my 2500 health pool. I would never bleed kite a paladin, infact in no 1v1 situations would i use garrote on him, but if it is 2v1 i might consider it as instant, unmitigated damage.



A lot of mages blinking around the bgs at the moment, and nothing beats garrote + Imp GS, a quick 1000-1300 damage.



Prep should not be needed if you have disarm + evasion, particularly blind.

 

[Benchlol]

As a nightelf you should be able to ambush + Shadowmeld + sap and then open up with something else

I assume your talking about the same thing we were earlier but with shadowmeld instead of vanish? If you are unless you have tried it I doubt with having to fit in shadowmeld->stealth in you would be able to make it in time for the sap before a consecrate comes.

You will not get ooc from smeld and stealth until 6 seconds are up, if you are in combat.

What is this.. the fifth time I've said yes you can smeld stealth before combat timer ends. I'll link this again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TNF_S0KH40) unless I'm not understanding you or something ^^ if you mean you cannot sap before the timer is done or something?

in no 1v1 situations would i use garrote on a ret paladin

Why? How do you open on a ret pally?



sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> rupture is without a doubt the oponer you should be using.

 

[elesian]

I assume your talking about the same thing we were earlier but with shadowmeld instead of vanish? If you are unless you have tried it I doubt with having to fit in shadowmeld->stealth in you would be able to make it in time for the sap before a consecrate comes.







What is this.. the fifth time I've said yes you can smeld stealth before combat timer ends. I'll link this again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TNF_S0KH40) unless I'm not understanding you or something ^^ if you mean you cannot sap before the timer is done or something?







Why? How do you open on a ret pally?



sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> rupture is without a doubt the oponer you should be using.

in no 1v1 situations would i use garrote on a ret paladin - means i would not use garotte on a ret paladin.

 

[Benchlol]

in no 1v1 situations would i use garrote on a ret paladin - means i would not use garotte on a ret paladin.

uh-huh quite aware of that thanks >>



I was only asking how you open on a ret pally if you don't use garr and why.



Bench.

 

[Cliche]

You can sap in combat, your target is the one that can't be in combat.



Regarding crit cap: if you were not stacking other stats it is indeed somewhere around 25%, again i don't know if cats suffer the same miss penalty as rogues. Having a free KS means less downtime since you just had to use energy to build up 5 combo points, using kidney shot likely means you are near 0 energy. So instead of sitting there and autoattacking you now have 25 extra energy which is that much less time you have to wait. You get 1 energy every .1 seconds so instead of waiting 3.5 seconds for a hemo you now wait 1 second. The rogue gcd is 1 second so youre saving yourself two gcds, seems pretty obvious to me how useful that is tbh..



I don't even understand why you would go for a 2 point evisc or a rupture, neither of those should be necessary unless you're trying to stop a bandage in which case rupture is still > garrote by quite a bit. Starving yourself on energy always hurts your utility, plus you shouldn't be tunnel visioning one person since you almost always have to worry other targets (gouge, kick, disarm). Downtime is bad.

 

[elesian]

Right...let us move on from this.



You can sap in combat, your target is the one that can't be in combat. That's key. You can only smeld + stealth + sap, IF your target is not in combat, otherwise you cannot OoC for 6 seconds.

 

[Cliche]

Right...let us move on from this.



You can sap in combat, your target is the one that can't be in combat. That's key. You can only smeld + stealth + sap, IF your target is not in combat, otherwise you cannot OoC for 6 seconds.

I can't get on and test but since you can hit shadowmeld> charge without waiting shadowmeld should drop you ooc. Also, i've seen a friend shadowmeld my kidney shot since it functions very similar to vanish.

 

[Benchlol]

Yep shadowmeld can immune cs,ks,blind,fear from what I've done with it.

 

[elesian]

but it's moving to the stealth state that is the problem. You can only get that with OoC. You cannot sap from shadowmeld. You cannot go OoC if your opponent is in combat with you. You can go OoC if you drop combat, and your opponent is not in combat.

 

[Fluphy]

Well instead of whining about saping, you could always think of other ways to get outa combat.....i dunno maybe Imp Gouge....or am I the only person who actually uses that to get out of combat in 1v1?

 

[Druiddroid]

Well instead of whining about saping, you could always think of other ways to get outa combat.....i dunno maybe Imp Gouge....or am I the only person who actually uses that to get out of combat in 1v1?

it's easy to get out of combat even without imp gouge, at least against ret paladins



i've been experiencing a rogue lately at 29 and it's really easy to get OoC all the time in WSG. i'd imagine it'd be the same concept at 39.

 

[elesian]

exorcism - 30 yard range.

 

[Druiddroid]

exorcism - 30 yard range.

15 second cd

 

[elesian]

My cd's - 1/2/3mins. Exorcism means i have to pop another cd to get steath now.

 

[Druiddroid]

My cd's - 1/2/3mins. Exorcism means i have to pop another cd to get steath now.

well in WSG i can usually wait for exorcism and 95% of the paladins will burn it asap (if they know what it is..), and then i just gouge them and run away and restealth. no need to burn extra CDs (unless i'm not following what you're saying)

 

[Cliche]

but it's moving to the stealth state that is the problem. You can only get that with OoC. You cannot sap from shadowmeld. You cannot go OoC if your opponent is in combat with you. You can go OoC if you drop combat, and your opponent is not in combat.

You target's combat state has nothing to do with whether or not you are in combat. If shadowmeld doesn't force you out of combat just like vanish does then why does shadowmeld > Charge work?



I would think its the same idea as ambushing then sapping someone tbh except with a shadowmeld +stealth macro. I'll try it later on tourney realm

 

[elesian]

Stealth does not seem to work the same as charge. The transition from smeld to stealth only works if the opponent is not in combat with you. It seems to be the case that, if you open on the opponent (stunlock), or the opponent does not attack you, it works, if it they do, it does not.



I'm going to test it more, before i make absolutely definite claims. I have tested it in BG, and it works as ^^, but maybe something else is affecting it.

 

[Xailter]

15 second cd

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=62124 says hi



-X

 

[Rawrrawr]

It doesn't put Vindication up anymore, but it does still keep you in combat.