39 Rogue changes

unless you get dual sunfires or any other epeen chant that looks cool but cant possibly help a rogue
 
I woudn't say mages were the hardest opponent, only if you loose control of the fight due to sloppy play then it becomes impossible once you have burnt all your CDs.



And doesn't AGM absorb 2-3x more damage, and with the +12 stam it would be silly not to get it or try for it at least.



Opening on a mage (sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> imp GS) outperforms (sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> evis?), of course you can rupture instead if block is down but usually isn't. Theres also the possibility of (sap -> ambush -> vanish -> sap) but that doesn't guarantee the same level of success compared to the other openers.
 
Benchlol said:
Opening on a mage (sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> imp GS) outperforms (sap-cs-stealth-sap -> garr -> evis?), of course you can rupture instead if block is down but usually isn't. Theres also the possibility of (sap -> ambush -> vanish -> sap) but that doesn't guarantee the same level of success compared to the other openers.
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isn't the CS the moment a mage will blink?

and isn't the mage in combat after ambush/vanish?
 
You really haven't watched any rogues videos at all lately have you? :p



By sap-cs I mean you sap then cs without breaking the sap, so you build up combo points and then re-stealth. This is always confusing to explain to someone best thing is to watch this: http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=100571



And ambush-vanish-sap if done quick enough with the right latency means you can get a sap in before combat goes up for your opponent. Seen in the new Unmercy 6 video or this http://www.wegame.com/watch/Nice_Circle_Swimming_Shift/ (happens as the first opener, you might have to spam pause to see what happens but it is just a straigh ambush into vanish into sap)
 
sap - ambush - vanish - sap is possible. At the vanish point, most classes will trinket out and aoe of some kind, seems a bit risky to me. A mage will certainly heatwave during your 2 secs of GCD, and then you're really in the shit.
 
Yes it is slightly dodgy but not as much as you would think really, but it is usable from time to time for the lulz. And there is nothing to trinket at the vanish point, and unless they are spamming AOE it is unlikely they will hit you out of vanish and its only about 1.2s between ambush and sap. Anyway just experiment with it doubt many people will hit you out of vanish unless you use it against them a lot.
 
Looks like I was wrong then. A buddy of me did serveral tests with this and didn't make it. Therefore I thought it was Sdance, which works 100% always, just to make the lols in the movie.
 
Practice this a few times, get used to it. And you can have it work 100% of the time too with consistent latency and provided your enemy doesn't AOE in that time.



Do to this as well you must have all keys bound which are easily pressable, ambush and vanish have to be pressed almost simultaneously (but one after the other of course) and then just spam your sap button. Easiest way is to try it out of course.
 
elesian said:
I will never take mongoose on main hand. Ever. I've put it on, replaced it several times, and i guarantee you i always outperform the duel mongoose guy. I don't care about any statistics, i've wasted about 4000g on mongoose enchants, it's crap. It's all well and good talking mean uptime figures, but what people forget is the amount of time it procs 50% and more into the battle. I always feel unhappy with mongoose, doing minutes of a battle with no proc. I put it on again recently, it took 7 minutes of constant fighting to get one proc - i have a holy paladin keeping me up and letting me zerk the field.



People always give me shit about mongoose, but i'm sticking with how i feel. I've tested it enough, and compared the damage tables enough to know that 20AGI is on a similar performance level overall to mongoose. The other problem is that it is so blatantly obvious, two swords over your head and people gtfo. How much swing time do you ACTUALLY have with mongoose running?



5 points in relentless strikes is just too many wasted points IMO. I'm sure if you compared the extra crit to the 5 points in relentless strikes, particularily over a mid to long period, crit would come out on top.



The choice for garotte is simply, i also sometimes, depending on the situation open with an ambush, but rarely. Garotte gives me another 150 on my opening (25 energy = 25/35 hemos or about 150 damage) - hit garotte and GS and you've really just damaged your hardest opponent - mage. If there is one class that is going to own you more than any other, it's the mage. Slightly sloppy play and your eating a pyro. Open with a imp GS and a garotte, you're making him sweat.



The heightened senses really should be taken, however, i ALWAYS arena with catseyes. The >20% crit makes me sleep at night. I'm going to say something really stupid now, but i do not really think anyone really, truly understands the combat mechanics of wow, and i'm tempted to say that wow will try to normalize 1 in 5, precisely, over a long time. There is something really strange about crit, that i can't fathom. The difference between 15% and 20% is enormous, anything about 25% seems wasteful. At one point i had 50% crit on my feral 80 druid, and there is no way i was critting 1 in 2 - try 1 in 4. This was against a standard mob, of same level, x parry, dodge etc, my 50% crit chance had full space on that combat table.



Even if its capped at say 40% (i do not know the exact figure) there was no way i was getting 40% crits, as i said, try 25%.



I play equal arena and BG, so AB trinket is actually more beneficial to me overall, however, with the 12 stamina changes, it is something i might go for.
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There's a video of a level 10 twink with almost 100% crit who always crits. The reason 15 and 20% crit have enormous differences is because 5 % is an enormous difference >.>. How much benefit you actually get from crit is dependant on your expertise and hit. I don't know whether cats have the same miss penalty as rogues (I would assume they don't) but your crit caps dependant on your hit. In PVE most geared dps classes have 30% crit easy for a reason. 25 seems like a random number you just picked, there is a noticeable difference between 30 and 25.



The idea with relentless strikes is that if you consistently build up five combo points you have less downtime, especially as a hemo rogue. A rupture would cost 0 energy, as would a kidney shot. Free kidney sot = moar spam. It has nothing to do with performing against crit damage-wise, it gives you more control over you opponent which is key as a rogue. Same thing with mongoose, in fact we've already talked about this in another thread on pwndepot.
 
Benchlol said:
Practice this a few times, get used to it. And you can have it work 100% of the time too with consistent latency and provided your enemy doesn't AOE in that time.



Do to this as well you must have all keys bound which are easily pressable, ambush and vanish have to be pressed almost simultaneously (but one after the other of course) and then just spam your sap button. Easiest way is to try it out of course.
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macro it.

/cast ambush

/cast vanish



Your opponent shouldn't really see you though its possible to blind someone out of vanish if they are a bit slow. I have very little lag and it surprising how much time you have to get a sap off after vanishing, just make sure if you're spamming it on your regular bar, that it has a stealth modifier or you might hit something that will break you out of stealth before the bar comes up.
 
I haven't tried macroing because there really is no need, not sure if your macro will work?



The threat is when you vanish there is the possibility that a mage will AOE ie. blastwave and then knocking you back and out of stealth - therefore making the opener inferior to others. And yeah you have to make sure you don't hit yourself out of vanish if your choosing to spam sap.



The crit thing is all perception as well, and the experimental probability doesn't equal the theoretical probability. WoWs RNG system for deciding crits and stuff is pretty bad from what I've heard anyway.
 
Benchlol said:
I haven't tried macroing because there really is no need, not sure if your macro will work?



The threat is when you vanish there is the possibility that a mage will AOE ie. blastwave and then knocking you back and out of stealth - therefore making the opener inferior to others. And yeah you have to make sure you don't hit yourself out of vanish if your choosing to spam sap.



The crit thing is all perception as well, and the experimental probability doesn't equal the theoretical probability. WoWs RNG system for deciding crits and stuff is pretty bad from what I've heard anyway.
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Vanish isn't on the gcd so it works fine and is undeniably faster than spamming two buttons. Strafe away as you are ambushing since your sap has a long range anyway and if that isn't enough your vanish will immune you to it. Because of how this actually works your opponent doesn't really have time to react because even if they are sitting there spamming their aoe button you'll simply get broken out of stealth while getting the sap off if you're spamming it. Lag delay is ftw. I have yet to see someone aoe me out of vanish when trying to ambush sap them.



In perfect conditions like a naked test against a target dummy experimental and theoretical crit percentages are the same, people just forget about all the other factors affecting crit.
 
I'll test if it is possible to be AOEd out tomorrow.



To improve on your macro:



/cast ambush

/stopattack

/cast vanish



Just to prevent accidentally knocking yourself out of stealth with a silly auto attack.
 
Cliche said:
There's a video of a level 10 twink with almost 100% crit who always crits. The reason 15 and 20% crit have enormous differences is because 5 % is an enormous difference >.>. How much benefit you actually get from crit is dependant on your expertise and hit. I don't know whether cats have the same miss penalty as rogues (I would assume they don't) but your crit caps dependant on your hit. In PVE most geared dps classes have 30% crit easy for a reason. 25 seems like a random number you just picked, there is a noticeable difference between 30 and 25.



The idea with relentless strikes is that if you consistently build up five combo points you have less downtime, especially as a hemo rogue. A rupture would cost 0 energy, as would a kidney shot. Free kidney sot = moar spam. It has nothing to do with performing against crit damage-wise, it gives you more control over you opponent which is key as a rogue. Same thing with mongoose, in fact we've already talked about this in another thread on pwndepot.
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Please read this in more detail, there were counter arguments to each point. I'm sick of people going with the mongoose argument, without actually, THINKING, about it. The thinking with pvp crit is flawed, people need to re-look at it, the same with resilience, there is a point where in most scenarios it is actually hurting you to go for more. I mean it is common sense that for every point of crit there is less noticable difference, but having played at very high crit levels on my 80 druid i can assure you anything above 30% is a waste - heck with wracking pains i had up 52% crit at one point. You look at combat table figures and it just does not add up, i was no where near critting 1 in 2.



The difference beteen 15 - 20% is huge, you are critting 33% more. 20% to 25% is no longer feasible as a rogue, i will not drop below 2500hp. Garotte is a viable opener on most targets now, and per energy is MUCH better than ambush, particularly on retadins - your hardest opponent. Ofc, i would take the cheapshot on the opener in a 1v1 situation. I feel i have to state the obvious in every single fucking post, otherwise, someone has to say something ridiculous. Crit does not depend on hit, hit just makes more space on the combat table for crits, if the hit is high enough, more crits can be pushed onto the table. Relentless strikes is just TOO expensive per point, that is why i aim for more balance and rely more on my garotte - which is unmitigated by armour. Where else can i get a 650 DOT, which stops bandaging, regardless of armour, for 25 energy?
 
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