soup is yume
Legend
As someone on the left in the US if you think the left has any real power you either dont know anything about politics or your veiws are so far right that you see center right dems and center left Bernie as "the extreme left"
2020 election
- Thread starter Daltert Moropi
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Devm
Reformed
"I AM the democratic party", Joe Biden's own words.
Let's go over his stances on some key points. These are all public domain by the way, in case you'd want to fact check or call me a liar.
- TAX; Wants to heavily raise taxes on the wealthier folks (LEFT) Proven it doesn't work and expected by economists to bring down the countries GDP by over 1.5% in the coming years should he become president. Anything to satisfy their communist voter base I guess.
- IMMIGRATION; Supports a more lenient immigration system, making it easier for every kind of immigrant, documented or undocumented, to gain access to the government's resources and the road to citizenship. (LEFT)
- TRADE; Recently changed his stance from pro-Freetrade and is now against it causing a bit of backlash. (LEFT)
- ENVIRONMENT; Supports "The Green New Deal" and other initiatives like it. Using American tax money to fight climate change. (LEFT) As if it would honestly change a fuck.
And FYI @soup is yume, if Bernie moved any more to the left, he'd fall off the goddamn political spectrum entirely.
Chops
Soccer Dad
left relative to the GOP? sure. On the left? no.
Devm
Reformed
That's like saying water is wetter than sand, but not wet.
These are all stances that make him and his party, Left, by definition. I don't understand why people deny this.
If you're left, you're left. So what, they're still things you believe in apparently, or you wouldn't vote for the DNC. Unless you're a feminist and only voted for Hillary because she has a vagina, or are just a blind voter of the democratic party for whatever reason no matter who their president will be even if it's a puppet with onset dementia..
Chops
Soccer Dad
pretty hard to talk to someone incapable of understanding the difference between relative position and absolute position
Devm
Reformed
I know the difference but maybe you just couldn't comprehend my ingenious analogy. I'll try it again.
You say that the DNC is left relative to the republican party. That they're more left compared to the republican party but aren't in itself left per sé and I told you that that doesn't make sense. The stances I just named you are literally all characteristics of a party/politician who is left on the political spectrum BY DEFINITION. The fact that he thinks the way he does about the points I mentioned makes. him. left.
Another analogy. What you're saying, is basically the same as saying that Jeff Bezos is richer than me, but not rich per sé. The fact that he has so much money (the fact that joe biden thinks the way he does about the standpoints I mentioned), makes jeff bezos rich (and joe biden & the DNC, LEFT)
Chops
Soccer Dad
but you listed a bunch of political positions that you claim are leftist (most arent) and that biden believes them (many he actually doesnt)
Your initial post was so riddled with falsehoods it was impossible to coherently address. So I just pointed out that being to the left is not the same as being on the left. A concept you seem to have trouble with because your political compass is so skewed that you think taxes are inherently a left position. or that being worried about the environment is leftist, having apparently never encountered ecofascists.
telle
fella
I would not necessarily call you a liar, although I disagree with some of your talking points. I am curious how you define 'left' and whether or not you would consider anything left-of-center as being one large homogenized/unified group or if you acknowledge differences between liberalism, socialism, communism, etc and whether those groups might see differently from one another on taxes, immigration, trade and environment. And subsequently, do you differentiate between right-of-center ideologies and their take on said topics.
Devm
Reformed
If I really have to convince/explain to you that concepts like a heavy tax increase on the wealthy or much more lenient immigration policy are examples of left-wing politics that I seriously start to contemplate if I want to engage in any more conversations with you.
And no, not a single point I mentioned was false. As I said it's all public domain and things discussed in the actual debate if you even bothered to watch that.
I honestly am not a big believer in these center left-right terms. In my book, you're either left or you're right. All these terms are just made up by a bunch of people over the years who tried to differentiate themselves from a particular group of people because of certain conflicts of interests or other similar affairs regarding their own agenda. Sure you may feel some kind of way about certain issues that would lean more towards the other side of the spectrum, which is only normal, but you're still, at heart, left or right-wing supporter. I'm sure some liberals feel the same way about some things like socialists for example and vice versa. But these little issues that differentiate these groups from each other aren't necessarily that big a factor that would change them from left to right or right to left.
As per the definition, this is something that has been claimed to have been changed so much over the years to fit certain groups' agendas, but it all comes down to the same thing for the parties, politicians, or people associating themselves with this particular political belief system. This is that left-wing politics focus, almost obsesses over social equality, freedom, and rights to the point that it starts to impede the rights of the very people they claim impede their own rights. So supporting the notion that the wealthy should be taxed more just because they were able to have a career that enabled them to earn more than others. Something they may have worked VERY hard for just to get "punished" as it were because it's unfair to the people that earn less? How is this fair? You make your own choices and do what you want to do yourself and you're punishing the ones that chose something different from you for the sake of social equality and thus taking away their rights. The very thing you're voting to protect and enforce. Immigration, people who went through the hells of the immigrational process, LEGALLY, decades ago to make a good life for themselves in the USA just for some old white dudes to make a system that rewards and makes it easier for people to achieve the same results because they illegally climbed over a fence. Give me a break.
The left is a joke, I'm sorry but it's what I believe.
Chops
Soccer Dad
you watched the debate and then claimed he supported the green new deal. Which he disavowed in the debate. Twice. He was also VP during an administration that was more aggressive on immigration than W.
This is what I mean by you confusing relative and absolute positions. That Biden is more lenient on immigration than trump doesnt not make his immigration policies leftist.
And yes, heavy taxes on the wealthy is to the left but it is not inherently left. John McCain used to argue for progressive tax policy. Hell, Reagan oversaw one of the largest tax increases in american history. Dont think anyone would argue that theyre leftists.
Biden is to the left of trump on some things but biden is not on the left.
oh i see, you're just dumb. I guess that means since you're on the right, theres no difference between you and il Duce
Quackbesteu
Veteran
we love the tolerant left
Chops
Soccer Dad
I mean if you're gonna claim that people are either right or left and that any difference in shade on the spectrum is just a personal desire to just be seen as different, rather than an actual difference, then that means theres no difference between W and Mussolini. And no difference between Obama and Trotsky (which, hilariously, some people believe)
Adeimantus
Grandfathered
What immigration position would qualify as leftist?
Devm
Reformed
If he did disavow it in the debate I apologize for that, it was kind of a shit show you know could have easily missed it. But this doesn't change the fact, even strengthens my argument that he and his party are a joke. This only goes to show that he has changed his stance so often in recent times that it's becoming difficult, if not impossible to keep up with his political preferences because he doesn't have the backbone to stand behind something because he's afraid he'll miss out if not lose votes. Now you're going to say "that's called being a politician", sure man. I have my own word for it, a leech and a puppet. I don't necessarily like Trump but his standpoints have remained consistent. Go watch interviews of him from the 1980s, Oprah in particular. He talks about what he would do if he were president and his standpoints are literally the same, 40 years later. Unlike the snake that is the democratic party and the disgusting left that has been proven over the years to do and say anything to further their agenda.
And again no, the argument I was trying to make is that the political beliefs of the people laying closer to the opposite side of the political spectrum, shouldn't be their own unified group per sé. Because the core principles are similar in a sense, albeit some more extreme and unnecessary than others. That's why I do believe in terms such as the Radical/Extreme left or right. Which obviously isn't good in any way shape or form.
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Chops
Soccer Dad
youll get no argument from me on that. The DNC sucks and Joe Biden is a rapey old racist who has no business being in office. Im sad Trump didnt also manage to infect him. Real lost opportunity there.
I mean, the dude says all sorts of shit and never carries through and contradicts himself on a pretty regular basis. I wouldnt hold him up as being an exemplar of consistency and thoughtfulness.
Devm
Reformed
As I said, I'm not a supporter of him or the republican party per sé. I see some things I seriously do not agree with. We don't have a republican party in my country. But it's the closest thing to the party I support, albeit not that close at all in itself. I'm sure there are many better candidates out there in the US election, but at this point, it's the lesser of the two evils.
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telle
fella
No need to apologize for explaining why you hold the beliefs you do; particularly if you are willing to express how you came to those conclusions, which you have demonstrated you are willing to do. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and thankfully in societies that recognize freedom of speech, individuals are able to express these.
I too share a certain abhorrence to many of the political terminologies and buzz words that seem to be thrown around nonchalantly, albeit for different reasons. From my own perspective, the binary lens that politics is often viewed through oversimplifies the complexities of individuals' beliefs that are formed, cultivated and/or changed through their own subjective experiences. So I do think we differ on this point. It is my belief that there are shades between black & white, right & wrong or left & right.
You are correct when you state that left-wing politics, or liberalism generally, focuses primarily on equality, freedom and rights. It was the liberal thinkers and movement that uprooted the monarchs and feudal systems that had been in place for generations and replaced them with democratically run governments that enshrined those freedoms in constitutional rights. It is at it's core. The 'obsession' with these values has persevered in the time since because intolerance and inequality was not and cannot be obliterated by the simple one-time passing of legislation.
I do acknowledge that people's right to free speech has been obfuscated in the modern political climate and it can be argued that 'the left' is guilty more often of this infringement. However, both sides participate in this buffoonery and it ought to be recognized as a non partisan issue that ought to be called out and remedied. As mentioned previously, all people are entitled to their own opinions and should be free to express them; attached to that freedom, is the freedom for people of differing opinions to critique and call BS when they hear it.
I have probably said more than enough for a single post, so I will only briefly touch on this last point you brought up: taxes. Yes, it may feel like punishment, and plenty of working class people can attest to that, but that is the price of admission. If you want to set up your business in a free society with roads that were paved and maintained with taxpayer dollars, ship your products with the federal postal service that is paid for by taxpayer dollars, and have access to police and fire services that are paid for by taxpayer dollars... PONY UP. 'Hard working CEOs' who pay poverty wages and hide their fortunes from the IRS are leeches, plain and simple. They are non-participants and contribute the bare minimum, but god forbid that any politician grow a pair and discuss raising their taxes. Socialism! Now, that is a joke.
Quackbesteu
Veteran
Assume you're left wing?
But I agree with a good 99% of this. Well said.
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