I know alot of you are waiting for scaling.

[Tom Ganks]

It's still far from even. I've played in BGs since 6.0 on my 29s, and even my weakest classes eat F2Ps for breakfast. The only time I've had any trouble is when it's 5 vs 1 and even then I've often come out on top.

Well that's you and your skillset, and the lack of skill/gear the player's you are facing.

Believe me, We are more than capable of taking on 29's now. Just depends on the player and his/her decisions in combat. Scaling has deflated the stats of a twinked p2p SIGNIFICANTLY now, and the capability of taking on a p2p is even greater than 20-24 mop pvp.

The healthpool is strikingly close 3.7k-5.5k for a well geared dps class, and (depending on the class/spec), the damage range is nearly identical, as long as he/she is using a boa weapon (as they scale higher than that of a blue of the same level)

edit: p2p will allways have an advantage, but I'd say the gap has shortened by a lot.

edit #2 : you should also take into account that many of your f2p opponents are new and/or inexperienced. They all aren't a bunch of pvp vets. In fact Many of them are casual gamers or Jaja's

 

[Achmed]

[MENTION=12370]willix[/MENTION]

You're missing the fact i have p2p account also and i also have some oldschool twinks in my sig.

But yeah keep living in your fantasy world where f2p's are to blame because all brackets with so many "dedicated" twinks died.

The truth is out there but sadly some are too blind and stubborn to see it or.. they just like to troll cuz this is the only thing that gives them errections and makes them feel like a MAN.

 

[Neon]

You dont get it do you? There is old school 29s out there, that has been playing their 29 actively and believing in bgs would pop one day. They have spent countless of hours on their toon to perfect it, but because the bracket are 20-29 and not 20-24 anylonger they simply have to throw away their toon that they have 100+ days on, because you "f2ps" own the bracket?
No man that's simply not how it works! There should be room for both parts wether you like it or not! Just because 29s has an advantage over 20s dosent mean they HAVE to reroll at all.
I would never throw away a master piece of mine to begin over, it's not so much the fact that f2ps are restricted to certain things, but it's all the hours and hours of grinding and struggle people have gone through to get their characters BiS etc suddently gone to waste if they should reroll. And in the end, if all you seek is balance, wow is probally not the best game to play.

This isn't even the 29 bracket anymore though, how can you have fun with a GFed twink when the majority are trial accounts? It's not balance I seek it is competition, my friend, you can still derp around on your 29, but if your playing it competitively and taking it serious, you are a joke.

 

[Rollop]

People didn't abandon their bracket to go 'faceroll starters.' They abandoned their brackets because it was far too much work to get 20 people interested and coordinated enough to show up for games a couple nights a week. Even then, we've revived these brackets several times, despite 20-24s existence. The problem is that you begin to realize how much of a losing battle you're fighting when instead of killing yourself to get a couple hours worth of games, you can just hop in a 24/7 queue on an account you don't even pay for and play whenever you want to.

In essence, you no longer have to depend on a community for activity. If you don't think that a major chuck of F2Ps used to be active members of other brackets (brackets they would have had to pay to play in), then you're pretty delusional. Yes, I know there are some 24s who came to steamroll starters, but they are still the minority. F2P twinks had to come from somewhere before starter accounts existed.
'

Sure it is. P2ps made the decision to abandon their brackets and faceroll starters. This obviously had a snowball effect until finally most brackets died. Nobodies fault but your own. You sacrificed competition for easy games. If any mentality needs to go, it's that one. If you really wanted it back, you would reroll it. But you dont. And no, not all f2p twinks, or even most f2p twinks are old subs. I know plenty of players who have no idea about a ton of stuff in game that any long time player would know. Just look at the question and answers thread on the f2p forums. Or browse the front page. Going to let you in on a little secret, trial players were twinking their toons even when there was a 7-10 day expiration date. Getting the most out of something isn't a trait exclusive to 19s, or even wow or gaming in general.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

Why is it that whenever anyone comes to share some reality with F2Ps, you kids start screaming for thread locks? If you don't want other people to share their opinions on your bracket, don't make these sorts of threads.

"Reality".

Lemme tell you something: Reality is for damn sure, NOT what someone sitting behind a computer thinks it is. Why do we ask to lock when YOU specificaly appear? Because you're throwing the same tantrum over and over. Because you had NO ONE with a sense of loyalty within your bracket range, you decided to blame someone. Lemme remember you that twinking was HATED by the majority of the levelers and endgamers, because it was seen as a clutch to prey on low game. Since the xp off segregation, twinking was dying, except for a handful of players.

These players weren't loyal to Brackets. They were loyal to TWINKING. And the essence of twinking is that: preying on the weak. F2P "gives" you that ( dismissing the fact that we now can fight back, which is awesome ). Twinking is anything but competitive. Or at least begun as such. Times change, as Garrosh would put it. If anything, twinking got back to it's roots. You're just bitter sour that none kept their loyalty, like that's something to keep in a mmo. pff.

Enough with your "reality". You know as much of reality as i know of vanilla retribution dps. Your bracket was dead before f2p, even before heirlooms. While i do admire the people who kept the ball rolling, the bracket itself was resting it's deserved peace.

Reality.

Heh. Cute.

Edit: Wanna be competitive? Go play endgame arena. There are even tourneys with cash compensation for it. It's as competitive as it gets.

And you won't see us on your bracket, now will we see you! Win - win.

 

[Neon]

I'm sorry, but you are being woefully ignorant. I have more than 10 "oldschool 29s" on my realid that have been active since the patch, and I don't even have half of the total amount of GF'd 29s that have been playing again, on my realid. 29s are happy facing other 29s in skirms, f2ps could completely leave the game in mass exodus, and us oldschool. 29s would be more than happy. We've been getting Gilneas games, how much do you think we need f2ps for Gilneas? If YOU want competition, YOU can level up to be on the same playing field. WE already get competion facing other 29s in skirms, which is why you'll still see oldschool 29s doing wargames skirms even after this patch. Get off your goddamned high-horse with your demands that the p2p players in a P2P GAME abandon their twinks so that they can all reroll gimps.

You, the f2ps, have entered a new bracket, the 29s bracket. The same 20-29 bracket that existed before the advent of level-capped-unlimited-playtime f2ps. The 29s did not enter your bracket, you entered theirs. It is not up to the established residents of a bracket to change everything of theirs, when entering a new bracket, the onus is on YOU to adapt.

When the majority of the bracket is f2p I think this bracket belongs to us, and btw, if the majority of people are f2ps , lets say about 75%, and 25% p2ps, then 75% of the time the p2ps are going to be facing someone they can faceroll, I just don't see any competition in that, I mean you could try to set up games vs other 29s but that is part of the problem, when they can all just follow the rules and competitively arena against our f2p teams.

There is nothing anyone will say that will convince me that a p2p in our bracket is p2p for competition.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

There is nothing anyone will say that will convince me that a p2p in our bracket is p2p for competition.

Now, this, kids, is a freaking nice sentence. For some reason, no one should bother to try to convince neon. It's his beliefs, we shold respect/ignore them.

Instead, most of you will be baited and will try to convince him.

I need to draw me some popcorn.

 

[The Saint]

Again with this "who owns the bracket" QQ. You continue to piss and moan about an issue you have.

Because that is the F2P go to answer to everything, and I'm not moaning about anything. I'm stating a fact. I simply don't care about trying to balance a bracket that is unbalanceable.

Nobody else said anything about denying anybody the right to play.

I don't need a weatherman to tell me I'm getting wet mate.

As for the rest of your insults about how i dont pay, i probably have more active subs than you. This is probably true for the majority of TI users who trial twink.

I normally run 4. But I can guarantee I have at least as many F2Ps as you, and on both sides of "the pond". The thing that made me go P2P was F2P hunters and premades. The same thing is still happening, Premades still run and hunters have been replaced by ferals. I didn't do that. I didn't make the hunters, and I didn't form the premades.

Oh, and as for the insults. You never seem to worry about handing them out.

So spare me your self righteous bullshit about how you're so much better than the peasants.

I have never claimed to be better than anyone. You however are better than all P2Ps simply because you choose to gimp yourself. But I heard moonguard used to premade a fair bit...

As for F2Ps making the bracket pop? Anyone with half a brain would realize that's the case, and has always been the case.

That doesn't mean it's yours, or mine for that matter. It's the 20-29 locked xp bracket.

If for whatever reason blizzard decided to cut off trials, the majority of p2p twinks in this bracket would scatter to the winds. Eventually ending up in either the 70s, or stuck rerolling 10s to faceroll new players in white gear.

Lack of knowledge of twinking I'm afraid. Without the quick fix of F2P people would go back to their original brackets. But F2Ps would go?

I think your issue is that the F2P twinks here actually respect the original 29s.

Where?

But what'd you expect, really?

Civility?

 

[The Saint]

Sure it is. P2ps made the decision to abandon their brackets and faceroll starters. This obviously had a snowball effect until finally most brackets died. Nobodies fault but your own. You sacrificed competition for easy games. If any mentality needs to go, it's that one. If you really wanted it back, you would reroll it. But you dont. And no, not all f2p twinks, or even most f2p twinks are old subs. I know plenty of players who have no idea about a ton of stuff in game that any long time player would know. Just look at the question and answers thread on the f2p forums. Or browse the front page. Going to let you in on a little secret, trial players were twinking their toons even when there was a 7-10 day expiration date. Getting the most out of something isn't a trait exclusive to 19s, or even wow or gaming in general.

If you care to use the search function you will see how hard people tried to keep their brackets going. Don't answer unless you look. I'll link you so many threads from 3.3.5 till mop it might crash the sever. Reason you just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

"Civility"

Saint, you're smart. You already noticed that the only person keeping the aggressive attitude is Neon. He may be baiting you all for all i know, but the majority of people here do respect 29s. What it seems is that they don't respect the very people commenting here. For instance, i try my best to be civil, even when i'm cynic as hell, yet this Willix guy come here like a whiteknight to the 29s, fightning the plague thats the f2ps. Who the hell would want a paladin like that?

i won't say it's the same case for you, but people have a history with you here, so they may be disagreeing with you because it's you and you have a specific way of delivering your vision.

We all could step back from this a little now. Breathe, and play.

 

[The Saint]

i won't say it's the same case for you, but people have a history with you here, so they may be disagreeing with you because it's you and you have a specific way of delivering your vision.

.

You know why I deliver my post in that manner? Because that's the manner they deliver theirs towards any P2P. Then, they have the cheek to cry troll, lock, insult when someone throws stones to near their greenhouse.

As for neon, he has no problem using any advantage as long as it's free. That's not taking the moral high ground, that's greed.

 

[Bloodinhoo]

You know why I deliver my post in that manner? Because that's the manner they deliver theirs towards any P2P. Then, they have the cheek to cry troll, lock, insult when someone throws stones to near their greenhouse.

As for neon, he has no problem using any advantage as long as it's free. That's not taking the moral high ground, that's greed.

Well, i'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but fightning fire with fire has proven to only make the house burn brighter.

We kinda need to put the fires down.

Also, i don't know Neon, but he looks like baiting people, so i'm staying out of that. It's funny, but let's allow the horse do rest in piece already, please.

 

[Rai]

I I don't really give a flying potato about EU

and me dont care US..so it's all fine.

i play WoW since 2006 ( last 7 months vanilla )
from 2007 to 2011 i play low lvl pvp ( full acc )
i played all brackets 29/39/49/60/70

and i know what was happend whit xp off brackets
whitout the trials u got not 1 bracket what realy will work.

i play just trial..cuz i know witch ppl are the real com here and i dont pay only for use crusader
shit, i dont need that, i can deal without.
realy everything what intesting me in WoW i can do for free.

wsg/bashin/eots/valley and arena

for me it is mutch more fun play trial AND i suport this last bracket more when i stay f2p and not p2p.

u wanna pay? k i got no problem...but pls^^ in this bracket no1 need xp off twinks.
the p2p's need the f2p's...thats the true

after 500k hk in low lvl and all this years play time i know what i say.

 

[The Saint]

Anyway, I hope when you say that you'll be unsubbing, that means that you'll be f2p'ing it full-time. It's like going from renting an deluxe apartment, to owning your very own HUD home! Join us; it's bliss!

I would for wargames. ATM BG queues are to long and skirms are... Well bad. You can't hit 29s and there's no middle ground. I thought about going 26 so i could hit 29s, but then 20s can't hit me

If not, the good luck with your new girlfriend, better job, improved health, and all the other things that can come from taking a break from wow. Personally though. I ain't got time for that!

TYVM But the wife might have something to say about the girl friend

 

[Tom Ganks]

You know why I deliver my post in that manner? Because that's the manner they deliver theirs towards any P2P. Then, they have the cheek to cry troll, lock, insult when someone throws stones to near their greenhouse.

But the thing is, you insult, mock, or tease anything you don't agree with on forums. Even if the subjects aren't f2p v p2p. You will continue to post to have the last line in an argument towards you (I suppose many people here are guilty of that as well). Even when somebody has come to understanding, and acknowledges you, you will burst out with some sarcastic sense of Superiority. I have had Quarrels with you as well, and have tried to end it.

I can understand that many people you disagree with might lack knowledge or misunderstand (or are one-sided, ego maniacs). But you need to simply shake your head, and move on.
I can see you have been here for quite a while, but if your existence on these forums is to set an example, you're not setting the right one. It's a pity to see someone on the Forum for so long, and be angered or annoyed by the same little things, year after year.

And your "tone" may be shrouded by words, but if you aren't in any type of bad mood, a little or can send off a clear message that you are simply making a statement, with no intent of showing hostility (edit: like you do with people you don't have a problem with, as your post above)

Also. This little gif. I'm not sure if it's something you live by, or just think is funny, but it's in your signature for a reason, and I'm guessing that reason is because you truly hate people. "what a bunch of Bastards" Has it ever occurred to you that maybe other people have their own points of view? Maybe you're just thinking as an individual, but not with an open mind? Maybe you are what you think of others?

Sure people piss me off, but I can make sense of it, and understand that most people aren't exactly alike, and are in different circumstances. Democrats and Republicans, f2p and p2p, apples and oranges.

Here's some advice. If you don't like the other children, move your tray to another table. Their ways over-rule yours in number, it's useless to try to make them conform.

Correct the incorrect (politely)
Ignore the stupid
Ignore the Subjects you hate
Give your opinion (politely)
And post for the better of your desires and reputation

Long story short. Be a "Saint"

 

[wicktick]

White knight to e4

But you need to

There's a lot of preaching going on in your post, but you're not giving any reasons why people should subscribe to your beliefs. You disliking something does not give anyone else a reason to change.

Also. This little gif. I'm not sure if it's something you live by, or just think is funny, but it's in your signature for a reason, and I'm guessing that reason is because you truly hate people.

Your guess is wrong; in any case, why does this matter? Are you going to censor his view of the world because you don't like it?

Maybe you are what you think of others?

Or maybe you aren't, and this whole paragraph is just an ad hominem disguised as an appeal to common decency.

It's a pity to see someone on the Forum for so long, and be angered or annoyed by the same little things, year after year.

Why is it a pity? Saint's personal happiness is his own responsibility. Ignoring problems because they've been around for a long time would be easier on the heart, yeah, but the only reason you're telling him what to do is because you don't like the way he writes his posts. His cynicism can be grating sometimes, but guess what? Oh hold on, you just said it yourself:

Sure people piss me off, but I can make sense of it, and understand that most people aren't exactly alike, and are in different circumstances. Democrats and Republicans, f2p and p2p, apples and oranges.

Where'd that enlightened understanding go when you decided to make this post?

"it makes sense to me and i like thinking this way so you should too even though i have no supportable argument but you should listen to what i say because you're a negative person and i don't like negativity"

edit: almost forgot
my post comes off as harsh, but i'm not trying to attack you personally

 

[Kincaide]

This is the strangest thread ever. I don't even understand why there's an argument. I feel like there has never been a time in F2P history where we have had less to complain about than right now.

Some thoughts from Kincaide:

1) Neon does not speak for all F2Ps. I have not heard anyone but him claim that 29s need to gimp themselves in order to be respected as competitive. That's his view; please don't project it onto the rest of us. In fact, several people have already said that they don't agree with him, or that they think he's just baiting/trolling. The reality is, thanks to scaling, we're as close to on-par with the top of our bracket as we could hope to be given they pay and we don't. No complaints here. We scale beautifully in BGs and we will do so in arenas soon enough. Exercise some patience.

2) In my opinion I think it is inaccurate to say that P2Ps left other brackets for the purpose of being able to faceroll trials. That's a cynical world-view and I just don't think it's true. The vast, vast majority of us are just regular dudes coming home from our regular school or our regular job and wanting to get some pops. People go where the pops are. Blizzard made the 20-24 bracket far and away the most active bracket, and it was that activity--not the promise of easy wins--that I believe truly drew players from other brackets.

3) With the possible exception of Neon's intent, I don't see anyone trolling this thread, and I don't see anyone attacking someone else personally. People may disagree with each other's point of view, but that's why mankind invented language. (Not really, but you get my point). Thus for as long as no one is getting bullied and no one is personally insulting another person, I don't really see why anyone would call for this thread to be closed. One could make an argument that it belongs in the 20-29 forum because it's dealing with the whole bracket and not just F2P matters, but to close the thread entirely? I think that would be a mistake.

Carry on if y'all must, but please keep in mind that when one person gives their own opinion, you shouldn't extrapolate that opinion to the rest of the group that person is in. I have zero issues with our current situation as F2Ps, and I think we should be building bridges with the P2Ps, not continuing to pick at scabs that no longer apply.

 

[Shaket]

This isn't even the 29 bracket anymore though, how can you have fun with a GFed twink when the majority are trial accounts? It's not balance I seek it is competition, my friend, you can still derp around on your 29, but if your playing it competitively and taking it serious, you are a joke.

You figure this isn't the 29 bracket anymore just because YOU declared it? Now a "quitting"(cry out for attention) f2p is the ultimate authority and can GO BACK ON THE ESTABLISHED LABEL for the 29 bracket (ie 19 bracket, 39 bracket, 49 bracket, 59 bracket, do you see the pattern or are you braindead). Its amazing what people think they can get for free, lmao.

When the majority of the bracket is f2p I think this bracket belongs to us, and btw, if the majority of people are f2ps , lets say about 75%, and 25% p2ps, then 75% of the time the p2ps are going to be facing someone they can faceroll, I just don't see any competition in that, I mean you could try to set up games vs other 29s but that is part of the problem, when they can all just follow the rules and competitively arena against our f2p teams.

There is nothing anyone will say that will convince me that a p2p in our bracket is p2p for competition.

It was 20-29 before you even heard of this game, and now it is 20-29 AGAIN. You know what the bracket is called when its 20-29? The 29 Bracket. You want bracketmaster naming privileges, you can pay for it like everybody else.

You already made your "I quit" attention-seeking thread, now gtfo of my bracket.

and me dont care US..so it's all fine.

i play WoW since 2006 ( last 7 months vanilla )
from 2007 to 2011 i play low lvl pvp ( full acc )
i played all brackets 29/39/49/60/70

and i know what was happend whit xp off brackets
whitout the trials u got not 1 bracket what realy will work.

i play just trial..cuz i know witch ppl are the real com here and i dont pay only for use crusader
shit, i dont need that, i can deal without.
realy everything what intesting me in WoW i can do for free.

wsg/bashin/eots/valley and arena

for me it is mutch more fun play trial AND i suport this last bracket more when i stay f2p and not p2p.

u wanna pay? k i got no problem...but pls^^ in this bracket no1 need xp off twinks.
the p2p's need the f2p's...thats the true

after 500k hk in low lvl and all this years play time i know what i say.

You missed a bracket or four(I didnt), 59s, 10s, 19s, 80s, but I guess EU has a different meaning for "all xp off brackets".

Interesting.

"the p2p's need the f2p's...thats the truth" -- Do you understand exactly how many f2ps we needed to get the Gilneas games that we've had this past week?

 

[willix]

This isn't even the 29 bracket anymore though, how can you have fun with a GFed twink when the majority are trial accounts? It's not balance I seek it is competition, my friend, you can still derp around on your 29, but if your playing it competitively and taking it serious, you are a joke.

1. I've never claimed ownership of any bracket. The 20-29 bracket has been around since before anyone in this (or any other) thread ever even conceived of making a trial account twink. I don't own, nor do I have any more claim to it than anyone else.

But the game is designed to allow for twinking, and this particular bracket supports doing so at level 29. I've had 29s since TBC (as well as many of my friends), and this is where we prefer to play. We've put in the time and effort to get activity on our 29s even when most people simply weren't interested.

2. There are many other brackets that could be popping, if only F2Ps weren't so selfish in their goal to not pay money to play game. I can't be the only person who misses the days when I could make a twink for any bracket and queue up without having to rely on a scheduled game night.

While a lot of old school players have certainly quit, many have either stuck around or come back with each patch just to check things out. So while it's nice that you have all this misplaced pride in a bracket that has no community, you honestly do need a dose of reality.

3. I have zero sympathy for people who insist on gimping themselves and then complaining about it (or even worse, decide to insult people who don't gimp themselves).

No one wins in a bracket where a bunch of players feel so entitled to an optimal play experience, yet refuse to actually twink the right way at the level cap of the bracket, where you can take personal responsibility for making sure you've min maxed and can be balanced against the rest of the min maxers (thereby getting that optimal play experience).

 

[Tom Ganks]

There's a lot of preaching going on in your post, but you're not giving any reasons why people should subscribe to your beliefs. You disliking something does not give anyone else a reason to change.

It's an Evaluation, not a belief. And you're right, he doesn't have to change.

Your guess is wrong; in any case, why does this matter? Are you going to censor his view of the world because you don't like it?

Again, this is an evaluation based on his online display, choice of words, and past disputes. I could be entirely wrong, but he's giving us little reason to believe much else. Also, are you him? Do you have his inside thoughts as to why he doesn't? I'm not censoring him, by the way, since I have no control over his actions.

Or maybe you aren't, and this whole paragraph is just an ad hominem disguised as an appeal to common decency.

Learned in many ways, lessons are, young Padawan.

Why is it a pity? Saint's personal happiness is his own responsibility. Ignoring problems because they've been around for a long time would be easier on the heart, yeah, but the only reason you're telling him what to do is because you don't like the way he writes his posts. His cynicism can be grating sometimes, but guess what? Oh hold on, you just said it yourself:

He's entitled to his own self fulfillment, but if that means cutting others down, well that's where the line is drawn.

Where'd that enlightened understanding go when you decided to make this post?

Out my fingers.

edit: almost forgot
my post comes off as harsh, but i'm not trying to attack you personally

Cool beans

________________________________________________________

[MENTION=8138]Kincaide[/MENTION]

I suppose it is. It's gone from:

-Trying to rally f2p to Queue for Skirms (original topic)

-To a Polar Bear vs Hippo Thread (which was unique, I must say)

-To p2p vs f2p Pissing contest. (which I am fascinated how willing people are to spend hours of their time to waste doing so, Giving more effort and grammar than they would probably be willing to on a college essay)