- Status
madhombre
Legend
so?
Kiri
Guest
He I can't stop reading that with a Mr T voice
But according to f2p's, f2p's are the majority right, how come ppl complain about only meeting 29s in arena, you would think, seeing as 29s are the minority, you would meet one once in a while, yet I see a lot of qq about 29s, I'm confused
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Kirise
OG
My phone bleeps in the deep of night, and...a wild twink thread appears?
TL;DR summation at the end.
I read through this whole thread, and I see a huge, longtime argument raging that misses this latest incarnation of an amazing opportunity. Meanwhile, a "small feature" hides a much deeper problem for twinks of all brackets. Since I'm way overdue for a wall of text, let's get started.
People who twink, pursue at least one of two major goals. The first is to make the most of our characters. BiS gear and enchantments begin the process. We add macros, knowledge of class interplay, game mechanics, and bizarre aspects of the game. Twinks figure out the jumps in WSG, how to exploit blacksmith sockets for lower level toons, how to use a sulfuron slammer to break a sheep, use mend pet to stay in combat, farm a ridiculously overpowered consumable in Blade's Edge Mountains, and leverage lopsided stat scaling in a bracket. Regardless of how we judge each of these endeavors, twinks do amazing work and make amazing discoveries.
The second goal of people who twink is to play great games. For some, "great" means to steamroll everyone and establish superiority. For others, "great" means a last minute clutch play to win a battleground just before the time runs out. We can all add more definitions of "great"; the point is that "great" always involves playing with others, by definition of PvP.
There are times when these two goals conflict with each other, and with rare exception, the conflicts stem from shortcomings in WoW. If blacksmith sockets had level requirements from the beginning, the question of exploitation wouldn't have come up in the first place. If sheeps couldn't break from self-damage, sulfuron slammers wouldn't have been an issue for 39s. And so on.
That said, more often than not, both goals of twinking work together. The better we know our characters, and the better we play our characters, the more fun we have with others and with WoW.
So how do we figure out this combination of wanting to make awesome twinks, and wanting great games? To get clarity about what's going on with this bracket merge, let's explode a few myths and bring up some history for both F2Ps and 29s.
One, money has nothing to do with playing a F2P. C'mon, if a person and/or their family can afford to pay for internet and a computer good enough to play WoW, as cheap as both of those can be, they can pay for a WoW subscription. Clearly, it's not about the money.
Two, F2Ps and 29s both bring a rich history of working their butts off to get quality games, and both had varying degrees of success. That F2P in my sig? A proud veteran of my time on Korgath, when Kochi worked hard to organize balanced arenas. He even went so far as to have some classes put away their BoA weapons in favor of white weapons, to make arenas worthwhile for everyone. Those 29s in my sig? Witnesses to the first ever successful effort of upholding an ability ban in an XP-off bracket, for the sake of better games. I could write a book about the efforts of both subcommunities, and it would include everything from Sporregar rep farming and Ring of Precision runs to countless hours spent in the Scarlet Monastery. And that's just *inside* the game.
Three, F2Ps and 29s aren't two different groups of players. Like myself, many people have and continue to play characters in multiple brackets. Framing an "us vs. them" from either side makes about as much sense as a screw with two heads.
The F2P vs. 29 argument seems to sit on the foundation of stat disparity, and I don't buy it. 80-84 in MoP? That's stat disparity. 20-29 has nothing like that.
In fact, the stat disparity problem isn't new. It plagued the 70-74 bracket all during Cata, which I consider the high point of that bracket. Even though the bracket featured the easiest gearing in the game, the most dedicated players spent weeks farming raid gear from Black Temple and Sunwell for an edge, while newbies ran around in unenchanted greens. You either went engineering or went home. With such a massive spectrum of player skill and gear, the best battlegrounds at 70 were the largest battlegrounds. WSG was trash because games were almost always lopsided. But in Alterac Valley, the sheer number of players involved made for a better chance for more even games.
Other brackets with greater stat disparity than the current 20-29 bracket reached success. Yes, 29s have a clear advantage over F2Ps, even after F2P gear scaling. But I'd argue the knowledge and skill disparity bring a greater impact.
Twinking happens on a boundary. In the case of F2Ps, twinking happens on the boundary of a starter account. Yes, that boundary resides *inside* a particular bracket (and specifically, on the lowest end of the bracket), but twinking as a F2P is no different than any other kind of twinking. Saying that F2Ps need to pay up and enter the 20-29 bracket for real, ignores a fundamental basis of twinking -- pushing a limit imposed by Blizzard. Yes, that limit is qualitatively different than the bracket boundaries with which P2P characters contend, but that doesn't make F2Ps any less legitimate. And before we try to make any argument about why players would choose to limit themselves, remember that the single longest thread in TwinkInfo's history came from players twinking at 50 to raid Vanilla content, because 50 was the *low* boundary.
I'm saying that twinking isn't just one kind of activity. More importantly, I'm saying that F2Ps and P2Ps can actually leverage each other for better games, if we avoid the mistakes that other brackets made in the past.
The single greatest twink mistake? Entitlement. Entitlement in twinking stems from partial truths. Believing that a bracket exists because Blizzard made it that way, when in fact how we treat others in our bracket influences the growth or decline of the bracket. Claiming that twinking one way is the "best" way, while ignoring other "best" ways. Believing that games should work a certain way because they always worked that way before. These entitlements kill brackets.
I'm not concerned about F2Ps and 29s in the same bracket. The gap is closer than other successful brackets experienced. The hidden MMR in skirmishes will gradually separate most players in the bracket to where they can play more evenly matched games, and as difficult as it will be for F2Ps to kill 29s, doing so will earn them a screenshotted badge of honor that no 29 can achieve. I'm not worried about F2Ps and 29s in the same battlegrounds, because it will statistically come out pretty even in AV, and the smaller PuG BGs never had consistent performance anyway *even when everyone was the same level*. We like to ignore that truth, but most XP-off games came out lopsided over the years. It was an issue for every bracket since 3.2 brought segregated battlegrounds, and continues to this day.
Things I'm excited for: F2Ps pressuring P2Ps to get better. Premades for both F2Ps and P2Ps as the population grows when people get bored in the middle of the expansion. People discovering new ways to make a class and spec worthwhile. Long forum posts extolling the evils and virtues of a given bracket.
Things I fear: paused queues.
The comeback of skirmishes brought one minor difference that could make an major impact. Back when skirmishes first existed, we could get a battleground pop in the middle of a skirmish and leave the skirmish. That made for an ideal setup, since you could choose to keep fighting in the skirmish, or (more often) dive into the game you really wanted.
Now with paused queues, playing skirmishes delays battleground pops if you queue for both. That's a mistake on Blizzard's part. I get why they did it, but it positions skirmishes against battlegrounds, instead of as coinciding activities.
Want to know why queues have dropped so much? It's not because of AV. It's a combination of the typical drop in activity during a prepatch, and skirmishes keeping people out of battlegrounds while people are queued and waiting to start a BG. Because of this change Blizzard made in how skirmish queues no longer allow BG queues to pop mid-skirmish, it will seriously slow the growth of the 20-29 bracket, and flat out prevent other XP-off brackets from getting off the ground when they actually have enough players to get battlegrounds.
Big Finish/TL;DR:
MoP brought arguably the single worst expansion to twinking, with radical imbalance. WoD looks to finally usher in a golden age of twinking with significantly better balance, plus skirmishes. This F2P vs. 29 stuff feels silly to me. You want something to be concerned about? Be concerned about paused BG queues keeping the golden age from ever truly getting off the ground.
TL;DR summation at the end.
I read through this whole thread, and I see a huge, longtime argument raging that misses this latest incarnation of an amazing opportunity. Meanwhile, a "small feature" hides a much deeper problem for twinks of all brackets. Since I'm way overdue for a wall of text, let's get started.
People who twink, pursue at least one of two major goals. The first is to make the most of our characters. BiS gear and enchantments begin the process. We add macros, knowledge of class interplay, game mechanics, and bizarre aspects of the game. Twinks figure out the jumps in WSG, how to exploit blacksmith sockets for lower level toons, how to use a sulfuron slammer to break a sheep, use mend pet to stay in combat, farm a ridiculously overpowered consumable in Blade's Edge Mountains, and leverage lopsided stat scaling in a bracket. Regardless of how we judge each of these endeavors, twinks do amazing work and make amazing discoveries.
The second goal of people who twink is to play great games. For some, "great" means to steamroll everyone and establish superiority. For others, "great" means a last minute clutch play to win a battleground just before the time runs out. We can all add more definitions of "great"; the point is that "great" always involves playing with others, by definition of PvP.
There are times when these two goals conflict with each other, and with rare exception, the conflicts stem from shortcomings in WoW. If blacksmith sockets had level requirements from the beginning, the question of exploitation wouldn't have come up in the first place. If sheeps couldn't break from self-damage, sulfuron slammers wouldn't have been an issue for 39s. And so on.
That said, more often than not, both goals of twinking work together. The better we know our characters, and the better we play our characters, the more fun we have with others and with WoW.
So how do we figure out this combination of wanting to make awesome twinks, and wanting great games? To get clarity about what's going on with this bracket merge, let's explode a few myths and bring up some history for both F2Ps and 29s.
One, money has nothing to do with playing a F2P. C'mon, if a person and/or their family can afford to pay for internet and a computer good enough to play WoW, as cheap as both of those can be, they can pay for a WoW subscription. Clearly, it's not about the money.
Two, F2Ps and 29s both bring a rich history of working their butts off to get quality games, and both had varying degrees of success. That F2P in my sig? A proud veteran of my time on Korgath, when Kochi worked hard to organize balanced arenas. He even went so far as to have some classes put away their BoA weapons in favor of white weapons, to make arenas worthwhile for everyone. Those 29s in my sig? Witnesses to the first ever successful effort of upholding an ability ban in an XP-off bracket, for the sake of better games. I could write a book about the efforts of both subcommunities, and it would include everything from Sporregar rep farming and Ring of Precision runs to countless hours spent in the Scarlet Monastery. And that's just *inside* the game.
Three, F2Ps and 29s aren't two different groups of players. Like myself, many people have and continue to play characters in multiple brackets. Framing an "us vs. them" from either side makes about as much sense as a screw with two heads.
The F2P vs. 29 argument seems to sit on the foundation of stat disparity, and I don't buy it. 80-84 in MoP? That's stat disparity. 20-29 has nothing like that.
In fact, the stat disparity problem isn't new. It plagued the 70-74 bracket all during Cata, which I consider the high point of that bracket. Even though the bracket featured the easiest gearing in the game, the most dedicated players spent weeks farming raid gear from Black Temple and Sunwell for an edge, while newbies ran around in unenchanted greens. You either went engineering or went home. With such a massive spectrum of player skill and gear, the best battlegrounds at 70 were the largest battlegrounds. WSG was trash because games were almost always lopsided. But in Alterac Valley, the sheer number of players involved made for a better chance for more even games.
Other brackets with greater stat disparity than the current 20-29 bracket reached success. Yes, 29s have a clear advantage over F2Ps, even after F2P gear scaling. But I'd argue the knowledge and skill disparity bring a greater impact.
Twinking happens on a boundary. In the case of F2Ps, twinking happens on the boundary of a starter account. Yes, that boundary resides *inside* a particular bracket (and specifically, on the lowest end of the bracket), but twinking as a F2P is no different than any other kind of twinking. Saying that F2Ps need to pay up and enter the 20-29 bracket for real, ignores a fundamental basis of twinking -- pushing a limit imposed by Blizzard. Yes, that limit is qualitatively different than the bracket boundaries with which P2P characters contend, but that doesn't make F2Ps any less legitimate. And before we try to make any argument about why players would choose to limit themselves, remember that the single longest thread in TwinkInfo's history came from players twinking at 50 to raid Vanilla content, because 50 was the *low* boundary.
I'm saying that twinking isn't just one kind of activity. More importantly, I'm saying that F2Ps and P2Ps can actually leverage each other for better games, if we avoid the mistakes that other brackets made in the past.
The single greatest twink mistake? Entitlement. Entitlement in twinking stems from partial truths. Believing that a bracket exists because Blizzard made it that way, when in fact how we treat others in our bracket influences the growth or decline of the bracket. Claiming that twinking one way is the "best" way, while ignoring other "best" ways. Believing that games should work a certain way because they always worked that way before. These entitlements kill brackets.
I'm not concerned about F2Ps and 29s in the same bracket. The gap is closer than other successful brackets experienced. The hidden MMR in skirmishes will gradually separate most players in the bracket to where they can play more evenly matched games, and as difficult as it will be for F2Ps to kill 29s, doing so will earn them a screenshotted badge of honor that no 29 can achieve. I'm not worried about F2Ps and 29s in the same battlegrounds, because it will statistically come out pretty even in AV, and the smaller PuG BGs never had consistent performance anyway *even when everyone was the same level*. We like to ignore that truth, but most XP-off games came out lopsided over the years. It was an issue for every bracket since 3.2 brought segregated battlegrounds, and continues to this day.
Things I'm excited for: F2Ps pressuring P2Ps to get better. Premades for both F2Ps and P2Ps as the population grows when people get bored in the middle of the expansion. People discovering new ways to make a class and spec worthwhile. Long forum posts extolling the evils and virtues of a given bracket.
Things I fear: paused queues.
The comeback of skirmishes brought one minor difference that could make an major impact. Back when skirmishes first existed, we could get a battleground pop in the middle of a skirmish and leave the skirmish. That made for an ideal setup, since you could choose to keep fighting in the skirmish, or (more often) dive into the game you really wanted.
Now with paused queues, playing skirmishes delays battleground pops if you queue for both. That's a mistake on Blizzard's part. I get why they did it, but it positions skirmishes against battlegrounds, instead of as coinciding activities.
Want to know why queues have dropped so much? It's not because of AV. It's a combination of the typical drop in activity during a prepatch, and skirmishes keeping people out of battlegrounds while people are queued and waiting to start a BG. Because of this change Blizzard made in how skirmish queues no longer allow BG queues to pop mid-skirmish, it will seriously slow the growth of the 20-29 bracket, and flat out prevent other XP-off brackets from getting off the ground when they actually have enough players to get battlegrounds.
Big Finish/TL;DR:
MoP brought arguably the single worst expansion to twinking, with radical imbalance. WoD looks to finally usher in a golden age of twinking with significantly better balance, plus skirmishes. This F2P vs. 29 stuff feels silly to me. You want something to be concerned about? Be concerned about paused BG queues keeping the golden age from ever truly getting off the ground.
madhombre
Legend
sure your lvl 20 character (i wouldnt call such a piece of shit "twink") manages to kill lvl 15s?
Kincaide
Legend
I got a crick in my neck from nodding so much at everything you said. I kind of feel like everyone ought to bookmark this post for quick future reference.
Upswag
Legend
Forgot how much I love you Rise <3
Patrol
Legend
cooperate with ur fellow twinks. f2p, cooperate with 29s cuz they don't want to leave so you're not gonna make em. 29s, cooperate with f2ps cuz unless u convince blizz to change f2p system they're not leaving cuz they wanna stay. takes more strength to cooperate than to compete. ya fuck it i'm telling you wat to do i won't censor it
Upswag
Legend
So you mean... exactly what I said? Twinks died in Wrath after BGs stopped popping and skirms were gone in Cata.
And it's absolutely fucking hilarious how many 29s here are trying to talk shit to me about them playing their twinks WHEN MOST OF YOU ARE ON MY BATTLETAG AND I KNOW YOU DIDNT PLAY YOUR TWINKS. Willie for fucks sake, I rocked your 90 in 3 RBGs doing carries - I'm pretty sure I have footage of me playing Cel's druid and running into you at some shitty rating and winning WSG in 6 minutes, I know what the hell you played. And if you mean you and Daks playing 1 arena every 3 months - LOL.
And I played all of those brackets. I only did 19s for the most part but was convinced to roll a 39 by Bait and co. Then I rolled a 39/49 with Loli etc. after doing RBGs with them. I've literally played all of the same brackets you have as long as you have. You're delusional if you don't think all the brackets died in Cata minus 19s.
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willix
Legend
Bwappo said:
Yes, twinking is about getting the most out of your characters. Most of the stuff you've mentioned here (and the wall of stuff you didn't) are the products of shortsighted development on Blizzard's part. Yes, bugs happen. People exploit them. But the way Blizzard handles the game (especially for lower level players) in regards to bugs/exploits leaves a lot to be desired. I give kudos to Blizzard for catching people who were exploiting sockets on their bracers and gloves, removing them and sending the gear back, but stuff like that should have been hotfixed right away and taken care of for good.
Instead, we have people who slip through the cracks and exploit their characters to the detriment of other player's enjoyment of the game. Furthermore, when a class or player can only compete by using these exploits, it paints a perfect picture of Blizzard's lack of interest when it comes to low level players. The entire F2P bracket is the result of shortsighted development. Starter accounts were never designed or intended to be used by twinks, the astounding level of restrictions prove as much. There's almost zero benefit to making a F2P character, outside of proving you can do it and the fact you don't have to pay for it.
Unless you stick to Wargames or duels, you're subjecting yourself to an environment where you are the lowest common denominator.
Bwappo said:
You and I have been friends for awhile. I respect the efforts you make to frame your posts in as neutral a fashion as possible, but I have to disagree with this point here. F2Ps don't have a history of 'great' games. They have a history of one-sided games. Games filled with OP classes. Botters, afkers, and people who don't even try to gear up before playing, are all common in this bracket. In fact, 'great' is so outside the box for F2Ps it's difficult to parse even a single situation in the last 2 years that warrants use of the word. Even if we could review the books on each game, there would be undoubtedly players crying foul on something that took place during even the best of them.
Which brings me to my counter point. Players who care about quality, whether it's that fabled last minute play, overall game balance, or evenly matched teams, don't show up to play in a bracket where any of those things are missing. All we have to do is look at any bracket outside of F2Ps to see this. Even the seemingly indestructible 19s and 70s have seen bracket death since 3.2, where it didn't seem possible. When you don't have a natural cap designed to encourage people to upgrade their game, shoving players who don't upgrade into a specific queue, brackets die when there's a lack of greatness (read: quality).
Whether it's the most recent death of 19s due to OP class stacking, graveyard camping, and group queuing, the death of 70s due to similar reasons (including tinkers and other exploits), or even the death of mid brackets like the 39s/49s, people stop showing up because it requires conscious effort to make those games happen in the first place. No one wants to put forth such an effort for low quality games.
But brackets which are fed by naturally capped players are different. All the Dancing Steel wielding level 24 rogues in the world can't kill a bracket that doesn't depend on people making a conscious effort to get activity. No amount of Sun Lute wielding warriors can hinder a bracket that keeps absorbing standard account players like the worlds largest grape juice spill in a Brawny paper towel warehouse. These brackets are not normal, they don't hinge on the qualitative play experience of its players.
Instead, they only rely on naturally capped players who unintentionally create activity, which then draws a larger crowd, regardless of how games actually are. No sir, if the F2P bracket was anything like other brackets in this regard, games would have been done by now, barely a week into a brand new patch. Twinking didn't survive more than 24 hours of patch 3.2 before it self destructed and there was a mass exodus to centralized servers by organized players. I can queue any of my 29s right now and get a BG or skirm within 10 minutes, precisely because 'great' games are not a factor.
Bwappo said:
For as many times as I've seen someone in these threads say they have one or more active subscriptions while continuing to play their 20, I'd say you're off the mark on this one. The ability to pvp without having to maintain a sub is precisely why there are so many people playing 20s. There's no other possible reason, outside of the novelty of making a character this way.
Bwappo said:
F2Ps have only been around since the end of Cata. That's not very long, tbh. Not compared to other brackets that started in Vanilla/TBC. On top of that, the majority of F2Ps never participated in the efforts to bring arena activity on Korgath or Aerie Peak. Their 'rich history' would only be a chapter in a book about twinking.
Bwappo said:
You're right, it makes very little sense for these players to balk at the presence of higher level players in a bracket that allows for it. My only guess is there's some extremely fuzzy logic at work here to try and justify continuing to queue up with such a disadvantage (and yes, there really is one, even amongst the equally skilled 20s/29s). As I've tried to point out several times in these threads, I'm not even against F2Ps doing their thing. I've spent the last two years mostly ignoring them and just playing 29s with my close group of friends, which is something I'll continue to do in the future.
My only reason for posting here now is because these F2Ps feel the need to whine about us being in their games, even going so far as to insult us for it.
Bwappo said:
I really don't think I can stress this enough: the F2P bracket does not exist within the same parameters as other brackets. Just to prove my point, let's try out a thought experiment. Let's say that tomorrow Blizzard hotfixes all starter accounts to have a 7 day time limit again. Within a week, the F2P bracket would be dead, to significant outrage by players who can't even post about it on the Wow forums. But if Blizzard changed the starter account level cap, say to 30, 60, or even 90 (rolling starter accounts into the battle chest), the F2P bracket would become level 30, 60, or 90.
People would not stay at level 20 to twink if that happened. They would go wherever the natural cap takes them for free. Quality of games has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of this bracket. I hope I've made that point well enough.
Twinking might happen on a boundary, but it doesn't happen because of boundaries. Twinking happens because players want to get the most from their characters. Because those players want to see what happens when they encounter other like-minded players. Because players like to build model cars and crash them into each other. The problem with the F2P bracket is that it's not a natural boundary. It doesn't line up with the level cap of any existing bracket. It's an anomaly running counter paradigmatic to the rest of the game. Starter accounts exist for one purpose only: to give new players an opportunity to try out the game and decide whether or not they want to invest in Blizzard's product. That's why the cap is level 20, why other restrictions severely limit what a F2P can actually do, and why we are even having this conversation in the first place.
Starter accounts were never designed or intended to be used by twinks. It was never a thought in Blizzard's mind to accommodate players with a complimentary account by which to twink with. So long as they remain a profitable company with Wow as their cash generating bovine, starter accounts will exist for the sole purpose of getting new players to buy the game. That's why the restrictions exist. They are put in place to give players the incentive to upgrade to the full game. Unable to use the AH, mailbox, or talk to other players? Just pay $19.99 + $14.99 a month and you can unlock those features! (internet connection required, Blizzard Entertainment is not responsible for fees associated with internet connectivity).
Yet we have a whole community of players who happily accepts these restrictions and views the bracket as a challenge to overcome, completely oblivious of what they've done to the rest of the twink community.
Bwappo said:
I mostly agree with this. The parts I don't agree with are the paused queues having a negative impact (it's no big deal to get a skirmish pop, finish the skirm, and resume your queue in BG). I've even had BGs pop for me the instant I get out of my 4th or 5th skirmish. The system seems to be working as intended.
You should be much more worried about the fact that there's such a significant population of people playing F2Ps that it takes away from other brackets ability to exist at all. The slogan for mid brackets is literally 'Too busy to answer the phone, leave a message I might get back to you at some point in the future.' How does one even generate interest for 39s, 49s, or 59s? We'd have to convince ~30 people from the F2P bracket to roll characters for one of those brackets, then organize game nights around their participation, which would inevitably die off as the broad spectrum of player ability, commitment, preference, and experience would get in the way of what would otherwise be great games.
This is what we've been fighting against for the last two years. I'd love to blame wild imbalance for dead midbrackets, but F2Ps have had wild imbalance sandwiched between 'surprise buttsex' and 'level 24 rogues' I'd love to blame the quality of games, but again, F2Ps have a monopoly on what can only be described as Spam twinking. This game literally doesn't get worse than the F2P bracket. Even leveling through BGs is more enjoyable.
Sorry for the wall o text.
Upswag said:
Yet I somehow managed to hit 1800 in rated BGs on 3 characters just playing with randoms in Oqueue. Try to imagine how many fucks I give when a carry team steamrolls the glorified pug I was just playing with to get my weekly cap. Try really, really hard, man.
Also, 'me and Daks' play with a larger group of people (including Loli), far more often than once every three months. Is it an active bracket with hundreds of players? Nope. It is a close knit group of friends getting together weekly/bi weekly for a couple hours of wargames where much effort is put into balanced teams and everyone just does their best to have fun - you know, the spirit of playing any multiplayer game.
The next closest thing I can compare to the time I've had with Daksa & co, are the summers I spent as a teenager mashing the N64 controller through countless rounds of Mario Kart, Goldeneye, and Perfect Dark with the friends I grew up with. I know it's difficult to understand having fun unless there's a rating attached, but we manage to do it quite often. You should try it sometime.
Upswag said:
Of course all brackets died in Cata. Some of them also came back. Of the two years Cata lasted, 29s were active probably 8 months of that. Of the ~2 years MoP has lasted, both 29s and 39s have come back at least twice each. Me and my close friends have been doing wargames the entire duration of MoP. It's too bad you weren't invited, maybe you'd have more respect for your peers.
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Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Shaket
Legend
Except, you haven't played all the brackets I have as long as I have. Jay(loli) didn't come into 49s until fairly late in the scene, so if you came into 49s after loli, thats quite late, indeed. I've been in 39s since before RBGs existed, so, if as you say, you made a 39 after doing RBGs with them, then, again, you came to the scene later. Enough of your bullshit.
willix
Legend
Shaket said:
I don't think we need to split hairs with him on that subject. I've played 29s/39s since TBC. I've played 19s/70s since Wotlk. I've played 49s since Cata. Whether or not I've played a specific bracket longer or more often than someone else is largely irrelevant than what that bracket experience has generally been. Since 3.2, the experience for brackets who are not naturally capped has been extremely rough. Some brackets have been dead since 3.2. Other brackets have had explosive activity for a few weeks here and there that inevitably dies down just as quickly.
But most people don't acknowledge brackets they don't care about or have a vested interest in playing. Why would someone care about another bracket when they can just show up anytime they want and enjoy 24/7 pops in a bracket they don't have to pay $15 a month for? This is why our conversation thus far has turned out this way. F2Ps can't be bothered caring about other brackets. Anyone who doesn't conform to their standards is a hindrance to their way of life. Their free, 24/7 pops way of life. That's the key here.
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