[MOP] Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Ok, so first you tell us that Agility is far more important for Subtlety, but then you recommend Balanced Heartseeker as the better offhand. How come? Personally I see Doomspike or even BH as better options, despite the 0.1 AS loss.

Two main reasons for BH in OH.

1. You want to keep a decent amount of PURE crit even if you focus mostly on Agil as Sub.
2. BH has 1.7 speed --> In MoP, poisons proc more frequently from a fast weapon. You'll probably say, yeah, but poisons are now normalized. Well, rather than changing the PPH poisons to a PPM, they changed the PPM to a PPH.

What's PPH and PPM?

PPH = the percent chance of a proc occurring each hit. PPH benefits greatly from faster hits.
PPM = Procs per minute.

The PPH calculations formula is as follows: PPH = Weapon speed * PPM / 60
The PPM calculations formula is as follows: PPM = Base Proc Rate * 60 / Weapon Speed

@Hash, Dawnblade has very nice speed but you lose too much in terms of beneficial stats for just a faster way of applying poisons. I won't advice using it, ever.

 

[dunkelheity]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

But what about Wicked Dagger then? Is the 0.1 extra speed really worth sacrificing the bonus damage, the 1 agility, the 3 stamina and the 1 crit? (having in mind you are hit capped)

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Since we're talking about the OH, we already know that direct dmg is reduced, so from my pov, yeah, worth sacrificing 1 agi and 1 crit for a slight faster chance of poinson apply.

 

[Sundusk]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Awesome guide!

I think it is worth mentioning though that Flying Tiger Goggles are in fact better for your Horde head gear list than Weather-Beaten Fishing Hat, but aren't mentioned. Regardless, everything else looked solid

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Awesome guide!

I think it is worth mentioning though that Flying Tiger Goggles are in fact better for your Horde head gear list than Weather-Beaten Fishing Hat, but aren't mentioned. Regardless, everything else looked solid

P.S. Thanks for your addon list, been looking for the BG timer addon.

Thanks, im glad you liked the guide. I didnt mention Flying Tiger Goggles because i'd want that every rogue use Alchemy/Herb for Switfness. Since you can't use those engi googles after you drop engineering, they were not fit for my guide.

PS: Even if you drop Engi with Googles equipped, you will lose the stats, making them worthless.

 

[Poparms]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Combat rogue is not unviable in the slightest

sinister strike hits pretty hard
eviscerate hits really hard
insane white damage with snd up( more than arms warrior hits)
poison does more damage with the scaled ap

now it may not have the highest instantaneous burst it definatley can put the hurt in some situations

ambush- revealing strike -sinister strike(proc double cp) -eviscerate

insane damage

also

maybe talk about strafe jumping to get away( keeping face toward melee character while jumping away)

maybe how to sap mage arcane explosion spam

and when to use snd and when not to use snd ( snd when fighting mail wearing melee classes)

nice guide, very organised!

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Combat rogue is not unviable in the slightest

sinister strike hits pretty hard
eviscerate hits really hard
insane white damage with snd up( more than arms warrior hits)
poison does more damage with the scaled ap

now it may not have the highest instantaneous burst it definatley can put the hurt in some situations

ambush- revealing strike -sinister strike(proc double cp) -eviscerate

insane damage

Too many situationals and like i said, in this bracket all is about burst. Provide me some Video footage of the insane dmg you output with your Combat rogue.

But nevermind, i see on your sig you're playing Sub also, or maybe you have another rogue?

LE: In this bracket you need to be fast and deadly, no time waiting for rng procs of CP's from SS. Also, i admit, i'm against Combat myself, always was, no matter of bracket, i don't find it Rogueish at all, if it was for me to decide, i'd remove that spec from the game. But, if you can provide me some solide theorycrafting to prove i'm wrong, i'm waiting.

Thanks in advance

 

[dunkelheity]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

What do you think about swapping to a Sword/Axe/Mace after Ambush and if you use it what do you think is better?
Shadowfang, Axe of the Enforcer or Venerable Mass of McGowan?
What about if you are an orc (a.k.a. axe expertise)?

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

What do you think about swapping to a Sword/Axe/Mace after Ambush and if you use it what do you think is better?
Shadowfang, Axe of the Enforcer or Venerable Mass of McGowan?
What about if you are an orc (a.k.a. axe expertise)?

Just answered this situation in a post above, i'll requote here what i've said on the subject:

Also, switching weapons in combat isn't an option either. At least for me. Why? Because it resets your swing timer and also triggers GCD and that's a loss in DPS, a loss you can't afford at this lvl at least.

if you use it what do you think is better?
Shadowfang, Axe of the Enforcer or Venerable Mass of McGowan?

The slower one with the best DPS, i don't have access atm at wowhead to see exactly what dps and speed they have.

 

[dunkelheity]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Just answered this situation in a post above, i'll requote here what i've said on the subject:





The slower one with the best DPS, i don't have access atm at wowhead to see exactly what dps and speed they have.

Shadowfang
Item Level 24
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Sword
29 - 56 Damage Speed 2.70
(15.8 damage per second)
+6 Agility
Chance on hit: Sends a shadowy bolt at the enemy causing 32 Shadow damage.


Axe of the Enforcer
Item Level 25
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Axe
29 - 56 Damage Speed 2.60
(16.3 damage per second)
+5 Agility
+3 Stamina
(+1% expertise for orc)

Venerable Mass of McGowan
Item Level 1
Binds to Battle.net account
One-Hand Mace
31 - 58 Damage Speed 2.80
(16.0 damage per second)
+3 Agility
+4 Stamina
+2 Critical Strike (0.62% @ L20)
+2 Haste (0.87% @ L20)

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Shadowfang
Item Level 24
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Sword
29 - 56 Damage Speed 2.70
(15.8 damage per second)
+6 Agility
Chance on hit: Sends a shadowy bolt at the enemy causing 32 Shadow damage.


Axe of the Enforcer
Item Level 25
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Axe
29 - 56 Damage Speed 2.60
(16.3 damage per second)
+5 Agility
+3 Stamina
(+1% expertise for orc)

Venerable Mass of McGowan
Item Level 1
Binds to Battle.net account
One-Hand Mace
31 - 58 Damage Speed 2.80
(16.0 damage per second)
+3 Agility
+4 Stamina
+2 Critical Strike (0.62% @ L20)
+2 Haste (0.87% @ L20)

Here is an indepth theorycrafting made by someone on Shadowfang vs BoE Mace:

Shadowfang > Heirloom
--------------------------Mathematical Elaboration and Conclusion----------------------------

z= 42 (constant because it applies to both SF and McGowan
x= Weapon DPS 15,56 / 15
y= Weapon Speed 2,7 / 2,8
Average Melee Swing Damage (with complete disregard for additional stats)
Venerable Mass of McGowan: (29,4+54,6)/2 = 42 (in MH)
Shadowfang: (29+55)/2 = 42 (in MH)
Now taking into account additional stats:
1 agility = 1,88 AP; 0,078% Crit = (0,0714*1,88)+(x*0,00078) = 0,14636 (SF) / 0,14598 (McGowan) DPS
1 AP = 0,0714 DPS (Is added to both MH and OH not shared however the OH damage reduction does apply)
1 Crit = 0,3375% Crit = (x*0,003375) = 0,0525 (SF) / 0,0506 (McGowan) DPS
1 Haste = 0,473% Haste = (z/(y*(1-0,00473)))-x = 0,069 (SF) / 0,071 (McGowan) DPS
"Shadowy Bolt" now i did some testing and hit the same player 200 times and shadowy bolt procced 11 times now i see a pattern emerging so i round it off 50 5% chance which seems pretty accurate. It caused average of 19 - 20 depending on amount of resilience gear.
Given said proc chance:
(0,05*19,5)/2,7 = 0,361 DPS

--------THE CONCLUSION---------

Shadowfang:
15,56 DPS
+
6 Agility (6*0,14636)
Shadowy Bolts (0,361)
=
16,7826DPS V 44,338/Hit

Venerable Mass of McGowan
15 DPS
+
3 Agility (3*0,14598)
2 Haste (2*0,071)
2 Critical Strike (2*0,0506)
Energy Regeneration (0,10/s) roughly 0,3 DPS considering hemorrhage or the monk equivalent Keg Smash would cost 40 energy.
=
15,981 DPS V 43,907 / Hit

So with regard to marginals in all aspects shadowfang has a substantial DPS lead and despite it's swifter speed it hit's with a greater potency nonetheless and hence not even abilities that benefit from weapon damage should be considered a valid argument in favor of McGowan. I calculated the DPS of Shadowfang myself because the label contradict aforementioned speed and average damage. Venerable Mass of McGowan provides but more stamina.

That makes Shadowfang BiS, BoA 2nd place and Axe 3rd place.

LE: I don't have them all so i can't test this myself.

 

[Sabzep]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue Guide

[...]
Now since we’re clear about Agility/Crit we should focus on our most important stat that we need to focus first always! This is Hit. We need to get hitcapped(3% or 5% to counter the nasty Night Elfs) [...]

I don't understand what dodge has to do with hit rating. The only way to counter dodge is expertise. Expertise reduces the chance to be dodged. Hit ratiing reduces the chance to "miss" not "dodged".
AFAIK

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue Guide

I don't understand what dodge has to do with hit rating. The only way to counter dodge is expertise. Expertise reduces the chance to be dodged. Hit ratiing reduces the chance to "miss" not "dodged".
AFAIK

I don't see dodge into Hit Equation, don't know where you got that. Maybe you're mixing things and you forget about

Quickness - passive
Reduces the chance that melee and ranged attackers will hit you by 2%.

 

[Drayner]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Great job on this guide [MENTION=2465]Achmed[/MENTION]

Any tips for my 21 rogue?
Drayner @ Azuremyst - Community - World of Warcraft

I choose to stay at 21 rather than 22 for gouge because of the item scaling btw.

 

[Sabzep]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

My argument is, that quickness gives you a 2% dodge. The sentence is unclear because it reduces the chance to be hit in the sense that you dont get "hit" when you dodge. It has however nothing to with the hit/miss mechanic. That is at least my understanding.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Great job on this guide Achmed

Any tips for my 21 rogue?
Drayner @ Azuremyst - Community - World of Warcraft

I choose to stay at 21 rather than 22 for gouge because of the item scaling btw.

Thanks.

Well, 1st of all, i won't play swords/maces/axes as Sub spec. The dmg output of Ambush and Hemmo is lower.
2nd, i would get the WC Chest if i were you instead of that BoA.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

My argument is, that quickness gives you a 2% dodge. The sentence is unclear because it reduces the chance to be hit in the sense that you dont get "hit" when you dodge. It has however nothing to with the hit/miss mechanic. That is at least my understanding.

No, you are right, my apologies. In patch 5.1.0 it changed from 2% hit to 2% dodge according to some websites on the internet. Dunno why my tooltips are fucked up. Gonna fix this asap, thank's for pointing this out, was a bit slow at getting to it since im very tired from work.

 

[Tobinofear]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Maybe you can add Touch of the Grave to the undead race. Provides a small heal (that also deals the amount healed as dmg) @ 20% proc chance.

 

[Achmed]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

Maybe you can add Touch of the Grave to the undead race. Provides a small heal (that also deals the amount healed as dmg) @ 20% proc chance.

I believe this doesn't apply to melee dmg, it's for spells only.

 

[Soldjah]

Re: Hathôr's 5.4 F2P Comprehensive Rogue PVP Guide

I believe this doesn't apply to melee dmg, it's for spells only.

It does work for melee.