Your place to QQ about Prot Warriors.

SS is making our bracket bearable. Well.... fun for me.

If Im getting bothered by a rogue/hunt in a group fight, it only takes a well timed SS to blast me back to the gy. Then our next healer falls.... domino effect.... game changed.

This business of fights lasting for 5 mins and longer is crap. Being able to kill other players is why we play.

Thank god for SS.
 
Fine, I'll play ball.

[...]and anyone who disagrees is, in my opinion, being dishonest or being a troll (looking at you on that one, DV).

Fortunately I--like most people on this forum--respect your opinion, unfortunately the bracket does not. For some reason, people are flocking to prot warriors.

People roll the class they perceive as OP, and for 70% of this bracket that means fotm and this 'month' that is warrior. They do this for good reason, the vast majority of individuals will improve their contribution to the battleground by rolling fotm. In this case, fotm is prot warrior. Never mind the fact that they could roll druid, hunter, or pally and have a much bigger impact--provided they can push more than two buttons.

Apparently everyone has their own definitions of OP. IMO the OPness of a class, is both a function of that classes' potential and the capabilities of the player to execute on that potential. Most players in this bracket will find warriors OP. For some reason, people want to only consider a classes' potential while completely disregarding the players ability.

I play a good mage, but a bad hunter. My ability to reach the hunters potential is nowhere near my ability to reach a mages potential. It wouldn't be fair for me to tell everyone that mages and locks are the most OP classes in this bracket--barring spell hit obviously--and actually expect them to do anything with it. We can form committees on TI and soundly proclaim the relative OPness of various classes, but for what purpose? We can have interesting discussions on these topics--unless ppl just call each other trolls and dismiss them--but what is gained?

Every reasonably skilled player already knows that warriors are not 'OP' compared to the other classes THEY could be playing. But it is perfectly reasonable that for most of the bracket, warriors are the most OP class that they can handle.

The fact there are people posting here at all is why I have it, if I can get them to flame more here than in other threads than I call that a win.

Exactly this, redirection is the best way to either diffuse things or at least throw it at someone with a tough skin. I would rather take the heat for calling warriors OP, then let someone else--who in their experience 'knows' warriors are OP--take the heat. Others try to diffuse with humor, but it takes two serious sides to do this dance. And if that is the case, take me.
 
Warlock: Ill say what I know but it isnt much, due to the fact I dont have a geared warlock and you dont see many warlocks in bg's. It seems that warlocks have a good amount of damage, and each spec has a slow/ way of getting away from melee dps class's. (Demonic Leap, Hand of Gul'dan, Conflagrate) All of which are a death trap for most warriors, as all you need to do is fear them, and do as much damage as possible in those fears/ keep up your slows or use your leap. If you are getting low, ie 1 to 2 Shield Slam's later you can always use your cd's. I have seen Locks get back to full health after being at 100hp in seconds by using Dark Regeneration+ Healthstone+ Drain Life. ( had been thinking about it for a while, if I was fighting myself on a equally geared warrior and lock, I think my lock would win)


lock will use fear, Jump(10sec cd), snare(2charges) to keep the distance, while warrior will use use charge + a stun to close the gap
just fear and go the opposit direction of the warrior.
there also voidwalker disarm(1min cd) 8 sec duration, not share dr with fear.

lock do get to full health one click macro healthstone+dark regen+other but only if healthstone crit heal...
i'm not sure which talent most warrior prefer? 3sec stun? double charge?

warlock win warrior? warrior hit hard, its possible, maybe uphill battle and need to take terrain advantage
need to keep mobile, kite him, so drain life/shadowbolt is not adviseable, maybe with 8sec full fear(warrior trinket in cd) then you drain.
haven't got real chance to solo 1 in bg, warlock keep aggro everything in bg, even resto druid would go catform and attack lock.
 
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DV you make some interesting points, and I appreciate you taking the time to put them into words.

Although I can't go point-by-point on what you said, and indeed I do agree with a number of the points you made, I did want to emphasize two quick comments, both on the subject of perception.

First, you make the valid point that I agree with that more FOTM players are flocking to prot warrior because of the -perception- that they are OP... regardless of whether they actually are. This is an important distinction I think, and speaks a lot to the motivations of the majority of players. As you said, for most players if they think the "point" of playing (in quotations for as much as any game can be said to have a "point") is to make the biggest booms, then they'll be attracted to whatever class and spec seems to have the biggest boom tool at that time.

However if the "point" of playing is seen as maximizing your honor points per hour--a very pragmatic perspective, I admit--then a class or spec's place on the OP Scale would be seen by how they contribute to that effort, and how out of balance their contribution is. I've often said, damage is certainly not the most important attribute in a battleground, it's just the most visual one. When I'm on my hunter for example, I spend the BG peeling and CCing and generally supporting the war effort, and while I certainly don't have top KBs or damage to brag about at the end, I always sort the scoreboard by Honor Gained, and if there's more blue on top than red, I feel like we have "won".

My frustration lately with warriors--by which I mean all warriors, not just prot--is that they contribute so little to that war effort other than damage, as compared with other classes. And let's be honest: plenty of other classes can do as much or more damage per minute than any spec of warrior, it's just that shield slam offers the greatest burst which is good for making people dead despite healers. However I don't think that ability turns games nearly as often as being able to heal a FC without losing health or mana, or to run the flag across the field effectively immune to CC. In other words, while prots can do a lot of instant damage, so what? It doesn't affect the outcome of the game nearly as much. And note that to this day I still haven't one-shotted anyone.

My second point on the subject of perception addresses the very original assertion itself, which is that people are "flocking" to prot warriors because of the perception that they are OP. What if the very idea that people are flocking is itself a misperception? Are there really that many more than there were before, or is it possible that this is a trick of perspective? Sort of like when you get a new model of car, you start noticing how many other of the same model are on the road... you just didn't possess the perspective to notice them before.

There was an interesting study many years back in the Pacific Northwest regarding a mysterious force--some believed it to be rampant acid rain--that was damaging people's windshields. An article had run about a person who had noticed micro-pits in their windshield's glass, and the article speculated that it was due to an increase in the local rain's acidity. The story caught fire, and thousands of citizens started reporting that their windshields had the same damage, and they collectively demanded an investigation into the cause. The truth, of course, was that such damage to windshields is perfectly normal from sand and dirt from normal driving, but nobody's attention had been drawn to it before, so for years they literally looked right through it.

I have seen games with 7 hunters in them before during Cata (and no, I was never one of them) and more currently I have seen games with 6 or 7 paladins. I have yet to see a game with 7 warriors.

And most importantly? If there -were- a game with 7 warriors in it, that side would lose. Terribly. Sure they might be able to get several kills by tag teaming SS's with another warrior, but a warriors abysmal mobility and crowd control would allow the opposition to 3-cap in short order.

In conclusion, I don't think there's a lot of difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying. Essentially, good players know that many warriors = bad for the business of winning. I think we're just reaching different conclusions about what it all means, and about what impact they are having on the game.

For myself, it feels more constructive to continuously break down the illusion of a prot warrior's OP-ness, from a game-winning and honor-earning perspective, so as to set a good example for other players, perhaps lurking board members, to consider. That's my gig, other people's interests may certainly vary.

Apparently, I had a lot of words in my head that wanted out.

Edit: Here is a link to the perception incident I mentioned above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Windshield_Pitting_Epidemic
 
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I played a prot warrior through out the recent WSG CTA. My verdict..... Not OP, just annoying. But they're annoying because they niche they occupy can be very effective with zero skill required. It's amusing to hit someone for 1.2k. Especially when it's a noob with 1.3k health. And let's be honest..... Getting a 1.8k crit on a resto druid (with 6 stacks + zerking) is sooooooo deeply satisfying.
 
Prot warriors were OP as FCs even before this last patch. Now they just get some offensive ability to go along with it.
 
TLDR: warriors are walking bane of doom crits on 6 second ticks rather than 15, coordinate your dps accordingly.

[...]
Apparently, I had a lot of words in my head that wanted out.

Perception is an interesting beast.

If my children claim they see a monster in the closet I do not refute it or brush it aside. Instead I examine the idea with them in a curious manner, generally let them discover what the 'monster' really was. I don't offer suggestions anymore than something like, "Hmm, this piece of cloth looks a little funny." or "When we go to the zoo, the animals have an odor... but for some reason it smells like fresh laundry in here." Eventually, they put the pieces together and learn how to examine their problems--perceptions--at the same time. They have learned how to solve problems, rather than simply receiving the answer.

It is my opinion that presenting a unified front that claims 'position X' is true and people have no right to disagree is fundamentally opposed to learning, and creates a culture of individuals that will always ask for and submit to the 'expert' answer. If the 'experts' seem to disagree on the subject then an individual is more likely to seek more information, and perhaps even try to find the answer themselves.

There is another issue here sometimes referred to as filter bubble. There are a number of individuals that will only hear the opinions of certain people and ignore all others. The forums are a filter in this same way, filtered by it's postership--which doesn't necessarily match its readership. Besides, I'm sure there are a number of individuals that already ignore my posts anyways.

On the topic of warriors specifically: to be fair, I don't play WoW much. I might play 1 or 2 bgs in a day, which is limited to confirming spell hit problems. When I do play more it is for data collection and generally the top of the collected damage shows warriors with ss being their highest contributor--Individual strikes are ~500-1800. Additionally, there is a [post=632011]screenshot here[/post] showing 7 warriors recently--7 hunters were not very common in cata either.

However, it is nearing the end of the month and I'm sure some people are becoming aware of the limitations of warriors. I would go so far as to say that most people would probably not have experienced warrior gameplay if it wasn't for the perception of 'OP-ness'. I could spend all day 'talking' about the metagame too but it would probably make more sense in video format.


A world constructed from the familiar is a world in which there’s nothing to learn ... (since there is) invisible autopropaganda, indoctrinating us with our own ideas.
—Eli Pariser in The Economist, 2011
 
Very interesting conversation this turned out to be. I'm a combination biology / education major now, and what you're describing with your children is what we would call fine-grained constructivism. We may be drifting off topic here, and have probably said all that there is to say on the topic, but I just wanted to say cheers for the in-depth conversation; they're relatively rare.
 
I like how the community managed to write out such wonderful and educational posts recently!

/highfive !
 
Oh no, they made Warriors viable!!111one!!! This is an outrage, Blizzard! I want my boring Druid/Rogue/Prot Paladin games back!!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!111!!.

Oh an an angry smiley face. >: (
 
I have recently seen alot of QQing about warriors lately with the release of patch 5.2, specifically qq about that of the Protection warrior.


Let me start with a few things:


I do not believe Shield Slam is overpowered, I believe it was poorly managed by Blizzard, ie the way Blizzard reworked it in 5.2 was incompetent.


Please don't bring up baseless coments in here, this is the same reason my Super Prot Damage thread was derailed so badly, as well as LolipopF2P's Video was as well (Partially and inadvertently my fault and my apologies to him/her). (“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ` Christopher Hitchens)


RAW NUMBERS:

Here is one big part of why I dont think Prot warrior damage is very overpowered. (keep in mind most of these comments will be comparisons to other class's)

Lets just look to wowhead for our damage numbers...

Shield Slam according to wowhead hits for "473-497" damage per hit (not including attackpower) and is on a 6 second couldown.

Avenger's Shield hits for "280-342" per hit, is on a 15 second cooldown, hits 3 targets total, and silences the target for 3 seconds.

I choose Protection Paladin to compare against warrior damage, because I think they are the closest to each other in alot of ways. (Both are mail wearing tanks)

If we where not even to equate in spellpower or attack power bonus's to these abilities (Shield Slam would not be benefited in doing so), Shield Slam has already lost.

In terms of raw damage Shield Slam does more damage to a single target, and has a shorter cd... but look at avengers shield... if it does hit 3 targets, and assuming non of those 3 hits are criticals, by wowheads numbers, it will be hiting for 840-1026 BASE damage. To put more iceing on the cake, it silences the target for 3 seconds, which is op on its own, but if you add in Hammer of Justice, this means that for some class's they will not be able to do ANTHING for 9 seconds... where as Shield Slam does not even have its dispell affect anymore, and pretty much its only benefit is generating rage for the warrior.

This is also not considering other overpowered damaging abilities... ie Aimed Shot, which crits if the target is above 75% health, and is known to crit for 1k, or Ferocious Bite which can crit for 700+ easily and gives benefits to the druid (A druid will have to enlighten me on that one) not to mention rogues, well... not to mention rogue damage in general.



SEMANTICS/ "REAL PVP SITUATIONS":

This is to show that there are plenty of reasons that Shield Slam is not overpowered, as there are ways to counter its "OP" damage pretty easily.

Mage: If you time blink right, the warrior shouldn't even be hitting you at all (can blink while they are charging towards you), so you should never blink unless it is to escape a charge. It seems like most mages are rolling Frost this patch (most viable for pvp by FAR), meaning they get a extra freeze and if they play it right can kite the warrior indfinetly as most warrior's roll Warbringer this patch, meaning they can only get to you every 20 seconds, while your Blink is up every 15 seconds...

Rogue: So easily countered on a rogue... 1 ability.. Evasion, if Shield Slam cant even hit, then how can it be OP? If that is on cd, just keep facing the warrior, as rogues seem to in general have pretty high dodge this patch, and Crippling Poison is beyond op vs a warrior, it means you have complete control over what he does, and if you wanted to, you could stay 2-4 yards away from him the entire fight and just let Deadly Posion do all the work for you. (Not suggested but is a possibility)

Shaman: If you go against a warrior, just use Water Shield and shock kite him, you can heal indefinetly, and as long as you keep healing yourself you will win no questions asked on any shaman spec.

Warlock: Ill say what I know but it isnt much, due to the fact I dont have a geared warlock and you dont see many warlocks in bg's. It seems that warlocks have a good amount of damage, and each spec has a slow/ way of getting away from melee dps class's. (Demonic Leap, Hand of Gul'dan, Conflagrate) All of which are a death trap for most warriors, as all you need to do is fear them, and do as much damage as possible in those fears/ keep up your slows or use your leap. If you are getting low, ie 1 to 2 Shield Slam's later you can always use your cd's. I have seen Locks get back to full health after being at 100hp in seconds by using Dark Regeneration+ Healthstone+ Drain Life. ( had been thinking about it for a while, if I was fighting myself on a equally geared warrior and lock, I think my lock would win)

Druid: Pretty much self explanatory, rejuvenation spam. The only spec that I can consistently beat on my warrior is Feral, and most likely Gaurdian, but you dont see it that often. With that being said there are still plenty of ways to beat a prot warrior on a feral/ gaurdian druid, but I am not so enlightened to them as I dont play druid that much. (enlighten me druids :) )

Pally: Dont think it is really worth a explanation, any warrior who has played more than a day knows Paladins are just better than warriors in every aspect. Ie they have a silence (prevents you from casting thunderclap), a stun, healing (Overpowered in my opinion), and pretty much equal, if not higher damage output.

Hunter: Kite. Kite. Kite. Kite. Kite. Kite. Kite. Its nothing new for hunters, if you can prevent the warrior form attacking you all together than you will win, not much to it. A mistake that I do see however is wasted Disengages, you should use it when the warrior is ontop of you/ if he has already charged, if you use it then he charges... that defeats the entire purpose. Another is not keeping Concusive Shot up, or not using it off the bat, you can keep it up on the target for as long as you want, so I am not sure why some hunters dont use it.

Priest: Even with shield slam crits, I am only doing about 30-100 damage on a priest after blowing through their Bubble, which is on a 6 second cd, 15 if you use it on yourself, and can now crit... so just keep healing yourself, and keep shadow word pain up, and you will simply outlast the warrior.

All of these strategies are based on the same concept, that you can win as long as you keep the warrior out of Execute range, which is easy for most healing class's.



BRIEF OVERVIEW:

So do I think that Shield Slam is op? No. Do I think it needs to be changed? YES. As I have said before the way that Blizzard buffed Shield Slam is by increasing its base damage by 50%, and reducing its benefit from attack power by 10%... when they should have done it the otherway around, decreasing or keeping the base damage the same, and increasing the bonus from attack power by 50%, that way only if a warrior is speced properly will they be doing alot of damage on their slams.

Just look at warrior as a whole. They have no movement speed increasers, no healing (other than Victory Rush), no debuffs (other than Sunder Armor, which is not super effective, and the slow from Warbringer, which lasts a whooping 8 seconds and is only usable if you spec into it), no consistent source of damage, and no real utility to speak of (Charge is about it, and is problematic because if go Warbringer you cant stay on your target as much and the stun fits into diminishing returns, or go with the normal charge with less of a cd, and risk not being able to have much of a impact on your target). Warriors in general are just outdone in every aspect for this bracket, and the one scrap that they are thrown is being qq'd beyond belief. I have been playing my f2p warrior as prot since wrath... because I like it, but I have had to roll arms alot more recently because of this kind of garden variety incompetence that believes prot warriors are some how op... laughable.


This thread was made for a variety of reasons, however the main reason is to stop the derailing of threads by the resent qq about prot warriors... so if you run into a problem where your thread is being derailed by such comments, just link this thread, I am hoping that this thread can be a place where people can flame about warriors and have their comments rebutted, rather than seeing alot of thread be derailed by this issue.


I would like to thank The Saint who was part of my inspiration for creating this thread, thank you for 'forcing my hand into making it', I believe it will benefit this forum.

can you answer a simple question without the eight feet of text please....

oh yes i asked for it. but before you post a page full of numbers, remember idc. i want to know why an ability with a 6sec cd, hits as hard as a 24 fully enchanted rogues ambush, comes from a tank spec, and isn't op.

if you can do that /bow. and i don't want to know about mobility or healing, i want to know about SS...

please dont give me the A counters B argument..... i stopped 95% of cata hunters on my disc priest, would you say they wasn't OP.

fyi: i asked about shield slam. if you want my opinion on warriors, apart from fcing they are awful. they just burden healers without being able to peel for them.

edit: thank you for telling us prot pally is OP, we didn't know that...
 
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I agree that prot is OP, but only to an extent, and no more so than Paladins or Druids. I do agree that an under geared prot warrior critting 1k is ridiculous, but aside from that a geared warrior hitting that is absolutely fine with the amount of buffs to healing, this coupled with a 6 second cooldown and no real damage to alternate in between AND melee range attacks with no run speed buffs (which would be helpful) makes it relatively balanced. But I do agree with base damage reduction and attack power increasing, asides from that every class has had it's time, give warriors a chance! Even more so when relatively most classes have a snare, run speed buff or disengage it's perfectly fair to have a strong burst capability.
 

Druid: Pretty much self explanatory, rejuvenation spam. The only spec that I can consistently beat on my warrior is Feral, and most likely Gaurdian, but you dont see it that often. With that being said there are still plenty of ways to beat a prot warrior on a feral/ gaurdian druid, but I am not so enlightened to them as I dont play druid that much. (enlighten me druids :) )

5cp rip put rake up and leg it. IF SS dont 2 shot you (the point of my agument). but why am i telling you this....

understand I know more than you and you dont want to embarrass yourself with any kind of rebuttal to this :( .

....
 

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