Goesid
Twink Info Legend
Yey you made a good point. Gratz man.
Xpoff can que bgs now. What 29 twink you making?
- Thread starter Spockstar
- Start date
Rhaellia
Has Been
Look, you play whatever you want but you're wrong.
F2Ps didn't kill every other bracket; separate queues did.
Most twinks don't want to fight other twinks, that's why every other bracket except for the expansion cutoff bracket (currently 50s, which is easily more broken than 20s) and 20s are all dead. If it wasn't for 50s and 20s, all twink brackets on retail would be dead. It's that simple.
What's the driving factors for both active retail brackets:
20s
Fast queues.
Fairly accessible.
Gear advantage.
Community.
50s
Fast-ish queues (at least it was before I leveled my 50)
Heavy gear advantage (lots of gf'd OP gear).
Community? (Look, I barely played 50s, sorry)
Jeez, why do people play in these brackets... must be those queue times. Yes, of course, a good chunk of people are drawn to the fast pops. But I think the majority of people are looking for that advantage, not all twinks but most twinks. For me personally, it's always been about logging in, not having to regrind gear every few months and playing some games with the bois.
Chops
Soccer Dad
Because I assume their desire is to inject some consistency in their game design. When the NPCs were introduced, they were expressly to protect twinks from BG XP. But over the years after twinking more-or-less died, whenever theyd be mentioned, the designers started saying things like "we know some people really enjoy specific eras of WoW and want to retain that experience and we'd like to let them" so they were kept in. You know, your 60, 70, 80, 85s and so on.
Which is good!
But now with universal zone scaling, you can enjoy those various eras of content regardless of level. The NPCs are now vestigial. A relic of a bygone era. So I'm rather shocked that they didnt just look at that and go "yea, get rid of those NPCs while we're at it". Which, good. I like 10s. I like 39s. Im glad theyre around.
Kaxle
OG
Making one post here then muting the thread since no one is actually trying to actually understand anything
For people who are legitimately new and just trying to find somewhere with active queues then yeah its understandable. You have no attachment to the bracket or 20s community and probably ignorant to its history as an isolated pocket and it not really being part of the 20-29 community at large. So people asking you to roll 20 instead of 29 sounds absurd why wouldn't you make your toon at the top of the bracket? Cant really fault you for doing so as they get it, they really don't like it, but they get it. The 20s can/should definitely be much less abrasive and rude in the discussion but I also get that as they've been defending and left to pick up the pieces of their community back up after the 24/29s are done playing with it for years now.
The old 60/70s: Don't think anyone is really begrudging yall for busting out your old toons as long as you aren't saying shit like this
TL;DR:
-20s just want the upper levels to show some sort of respect for the community they built by themselves for once
-20s should try to give people a chance before getting defensive
inb4 "lolpoor"
A lot of what seems to be interpreted as entitlement from long time 20s is them trying to defend their subcommunity which started and thrived completely independent of 21-29 who by themselves are incapable of maintaining a scene. All the validations and reasons people have been using in this thread are the same ones the 24s used in cata/mop after they found out the 20s had built themselves a nice community with extremely active pops. They've been hearing "lol poor" "just sub" "I just wanna pvp without gimping myself" from people just trying to exploit and abuse the community they built for over a decade at this point. Everytime Blizz changes things around so 20s have to go back to playing with 24/29 its the same song and dance, to dismiss that is to deny history. They are understandably upset when the 29s come back in to the 20s house with muddy shoes after they burned down their own for the umpteenth time throwing their hands up like they don't know why the 20s are upset at them.
For people who are legitimately new and just trying to find somewhere with active queues then yeah its understandable. You have no attachment to the bracket or 20s community and probably ignorant to its history as an isolated pocket and it not really being part of the 20-29 community at large. So people asking you to roll 20 instead of 29 sounds absurd why wouldn't you make your toon at the top of the bracket? Cant really fault you for doing so as they get it, they really don't like it, but they get it. The 20s can/should definitely be much less abrasive and rude in the discussion but I also get that as they've been defending and left to pick up the pieces of their community back up after the 24/29s are done playing with it for years now.
The old 60/70s: Don't think anyone is really begrudging yall for busting out your old toons as long as you aren't saying shit like this
TL;DR:
-20s just want the upper levels to show some sort of respect for the community they built by themselves for once
-20s should try to give people a chance before getting defensive
inb4 "lolpoor"
Rhaellia
Has Been
Kaxle.
You okay, bud? You must've hit your head and forgot where you are...
This is xpoff.com
You're being far too reasonable!
I personally welcome our level 25 brothers and sisters; we can be farmed together. We shall unite against the scum that will bubble to the top of our beautiful majestic battlefields we call home, and we will drive back these foul demons, from winch they came, Bobby Kotick's foul festering greed fueled womb. Together in victory and together in... the graveyard. Forever in perpetuity. Fratres Aeterni.
Razien
Legend
That was literally just a joke but go off I guess.
Warglave
Veteran
Welcome to every old 60/70s argument against X9 and X4 (when the brackets went to 5 levels). Same shit, different decade.
Goesid
Twink Info Legend
74s and 79s were probably shitters too?
Bambucea
Veteran
Ok, then let me as a question I have not yet seen being asked on al these posts post-merge.
How does the bracket thrive going forward?
Most 20s are not happy with the change but want to keep playing they beloved toons without paying for a sub, while most 25-29s are happy with the change (i guess) since now they finally get PvP queues to pop.
How does the bracket thrive going forward?
Most 20s are not happy with the change but want to keep playing they beloved toons without paying for a sub, while most 25-29s are happy with the change (i guess) since now they finally get PvP queues to pop.
Dragonstormy
Member
Well, many 20s won't bow their heads, instead they will try to maximise their gear/skill/battle strategies. People like me take this challenge as an encouragement to push their limits. 20s will be fine. Some may give up, same as some 29's will get bored. But over time, I think the community will adapt enough to the change (if permanent), to make it playable. Especially if the popularity of 25's grows and 29's could resist the urge to make fotm premades. And hey, queue time could be worse.
Chey
Legend
100% agree with you mate that people need to understand both sides and be mindful of that, when making comments.
I am one of the left overs that have been in the same situation where I can see both perspectives, coming from a 60 classic account that moved to a 70 BC account where they ended up merging us with XPoff accounts.
I disagree with you about 20s building a community when no other bracket could, 60s and 70s continued to do weekly raids for years after the PVP stopped. This was some of my most fondest memories on my 70s and where relationships were built that still continue today. I hope the same will be true for my 20 friends I have developed over the last couple of years, you and TFF included, looking forward to continue shuffles or WGs.
How many true FTP players are there? I suspect a lot of FTP also have VeTs that are in my opinion no different to the new XPoff 25+s taking a paid account to maximize their advantage, there by essentially exploiting their own community.
VETs only stayed 20 so they could still PVP.
I would also say 90% of VETs used the gift wrap artifact bug to max their weapon so they could 'compete' with the grandfathered relic twinks. I see this as the same 'concept' of making a 29 to compete. Absolutely NOT the same thing but if we are talking community and morals the difference between FTP (Non GF relic)/Leveler advantage was similar.
The amazing 20 community (which I still love) was not built from nothing either, in regards to PVP. It was simply an end result of the accounts having access to leveling Battlegrounds. Being the x0 (bottom) of the bracket just the same as 60s and 70s.
I am just saying I think people are looking at the existing 20 community with rose colored glasses.
I do however fully understand the position a lot are in right now, I would never of leveled my 70 or made a new 74/79 because it went against everything that the community had built, so I get the hostility.
My hope is that 20 is put into its own bracket (not completely unrealistic) but until then I will play my old 70s as they are. I am sure if FTP level cap became 10 for the next few years forcing a shift on the community then returned to level 20 cap combined with 10s sometime in the future, you would all go back to your 20s as well.
I feel for the true core of the 20 community especially FTP I really do, VETs I can also sympathize with having spent so much time investment and gold/IRL money on characters they considered new mains (me included) and I can also understand and appreciate people re-rolling a new 29 or even leveling an existing (crazy IMO) but they have that option and should not be labeled or judged or excluded from having an opinion because of it.
Chops
Soccer Dad
Just a quick note... dont conflate (as everyone does) disliking 29s with being unhappy with this change. It's not the best solution Blizzard could have come up with but its one of the most obvious ones and something should have been done years ago. I'm happy with the change. I've been giddy since the news dropped.
Anyway, to answer your question... How does the bracket thrive?
Well, you'll have to find a means of recruitment. Levelers getting steamrolled in BGs are your easiest and most passive form of twink recruitment but you dont have that anymore. So how are you going to replace the very natural outflow of bodies with new twinkers? Especially after the initial months when the low hanging fruit of "Vets who sigh to themselves and sub" runs dry?
You'll have to lower the barrier to entry as much as possible. This means farming, hoarding and handing out gear, enchants, profession mats and consumables to new twinks. It means writing guides and compiling bracket information for new players. It means creating and maintaining in-game communities and even guilds. A lot of that has been built for you by the 20s scene and I imagine many of the community chats and current guilds and farming groups etc will be repurposed for 29s. But a lot of it youll need to build from scratch.
You'll need a competitive outlet. We may give 29s shit for not wanting competitive games and its mostly true but there will be *some* people who roll 29s who really do fall in love with the feel of the bracket and will want to push it to the next level. They'll need an outlet. Arena tourneys, wargames, etc are going to need to be organized. Not providing this outlet is going to lead to infighting and bickering about the nature of random bgs though, this could be a good thing because...
You'll need drama. Every successful bracket needs characters. Even if its just among the people on this forum. People dont want to admit it but having a little animosity (lightly spread! not too serious) between some names you recognize fuels BGs and activity. And its an extremely careful dance around egos and personalities.
The round this all up, you're going to need community leaders. Someones going to need to step into the role of community leader and guide 29s forward. Which is a tough sell. It's a brand new bracket with no real history thats a mash up of old 60s, old 70s, new 29s and former vets (which were themselves old 19s, old 20s, old 29s, old 39s etc). There's going to be a lot of people with very different understandings of bracket culture and who will have different expectations and definitions of what a successful bracket looks like. And it will could all be for naught. There's nothing saying this change is permanent (history tells us its not) and so it could all get taken away in a patch.
Sure, the bracket will lurch forward under its own initiative for a while and may even survive without much more input than punching the random BG que button. But thrive? Thats gonna require a lot of thankless work from a number of people.
Godspeed.
glancealot
Legend
is there a class that can consistently get out of snare and heal like paladin?
i am gonna roll a 29 but just want to know my options.
i am gonna roll a 29 but just want to know my options.
AntiVaxx
Member
A
A druid maybe
Destur
Member
Paladin gets freedom in the 20's, Monks can talent Tiger's lust
Hard to beat a Druid for breaking snares, their healing is still lacking based on the one I've seen
Shaman is probably the closest to paladin in healing style