What would you give up, for Blizzard to recombine PvP queues?

[Kirise]

Rank II of the crafters mark. That you would use to make dragonling.
Mop crafting has alot of pvp crafted sets with socket slots.

Ah, got it! ...Looking that up on WoWhead, there's some really good ilvl 28 MoP crafter gear in there (using the crafter's mark), including two double-socket pieces. Balance that out with no sockets in the crafted wrists, and such a gearset would rival a well-geared 20.

If a leveler twink's reasonable stats ceiling is the same as a 20 vet or F2P, I think that works fine. A well-geared 29 will still land 15% ahead of both 20s and levelers via ilvl 37 pieces, and a 15% PvP instance buff could bring the 20s and levelers on par with the 29. Beyond that, the 20 and the 29 have room to really polish their sets another 5% if they want that edge.

 

[Goesid]

Ye, theyre good sets used alot of for timewalking. Theres also some non crafters mark gear like the 22 dark Iron pulverizer. But no. And ye 15% is nowhere close, maybe for some classes but for some... The biggest impact items would still be the Spellfire set for 27+ and the Whitemane set if its reeactivated again. Assuming youre willing to dole out the 100 something thousand gold to make it. With the 5% primary stat buff starting at I think lvl 27 aswell. Any melee except 2x pulverizer fury warrior would be worthless playing. Destro warlocks with Havoc would be able to 1 shot 2 people at once. Even survival hunter would be unplayable.

MM hunter would get Careful Aim talent increasing their Aimed Shot dmg by 50%. I dont know if youve seen Aimed Shot damage but it does not require a 50% buff.

Disc priests will burn you down in a penance. Youd have to burn cc to stop a psyfiend from tearing you to shreds.

Arcane Missiles hitting harder than an arms warrior.

That whirly thing the demo pet does hitting like an Onyxia Tail Swipe.

Resto druids would be back to their bfa days of just dotting an entire team with moonfire and Sunfire.

For shit classes it might be 15% stronger than a 20.
But a decked out 29 destro warlock? Probably closer to 200%.

Theres alot of viable clases and specs right now, probably more than ever. That wouldnt be the case if 29s were allowed.

Templates would absolutly be needed for a merge to happen.

I dont think you understand just how much damage its going to be.

 

[Razien]

If the concern is "wont someone think of the levelers" then it might be time for us, as a community, to think about not queing random BGs at all.

I don't believe that a "community" really exists in any organized way like that. Sure there's people here on XPOff who play together but in the end I am certain that most people won't give up PvP for the sake of "sparing levelers".

If XPOff decides to quit queueing for "the greater leveler good" I can all but guarantee that many people won't be part of that "movement".

accept that our existence alongside levelers is... pretty scummy.

I don't think that it's scummy at all that someone who gathers gear and enchants in an MMORPG; where gear progression is the very core and center of the concept of the genre itself, will be far stronger in PvP than someone who refuses to get gear before they enter PvP.

It's almost a law of nature and the gap between Levelers/Casuals/Bad players and High-endgame / hardcore players will always remain. It is simply how MMORPGs work and trying to change it is to work against the very genre itself, imo.

Also, a history lesson for the SL twinks saying that 29s would kill 20s: they've never killed 20s before and they wouldn't kill 20s this time either

I'm not sure what PvP you've been playing but when I could queue for PvP at 25 in Shadowlands pre-patch (I think it was?) ..I absolutely obliterated lv20s.

Surely 29s would have done the same.

 

[toskosa]

I hated WOD scaling because it lead to a situation where BIS was some level 5 quest reward that gave +2 str, +1 stm or some shit but when it scaled up in BGs gave like 1.5x the stats of other gear. So all those quest rewards you threw out while you were leveling 5 years ago? Tough shit man, theyre BIS. New twinks get BIS twinks and everyone else either has to reroll or be in bad gear. And then its just ugly when you que into a BG and have to put on a bunch of gear thats shitty as hell but because of scaling is actually BIS for the next half hour. And it didnt really solve the gear disparity issue. Levelers still wore whatever quest rewards they had most recently got while twinks went and found those overstatted level 6 quest items and wore those.

Fair enough, but I also think with socket gear playing such a large roll I doubt some random green quest gear from the barrnes would be bis now. I was also looking at this from a lvlers perspective on getting twinks back into ques, power would have to be taken from twinks to do that.

 

[Razien]

To be more on-topic however, I would never give anything up. I find it absolutely ridiculous that we'd have to lose something for good changes to happen.

Instead, the way that I would go about it would be to incentivize people gearing their characters up when doing low level PvP.

If I were Blizzard, I would add a disclaimer for any low level trying to enter PvP that would read something along the lines of; "Participating in PvP matches is dangerous without proper equipment, therefore you will be rewarded with [currency] that you can exchange for equipment and gems at ___ & ___ (vendor) in Orgrimmar or Stormwind!"

The current gear rewards from the PvP boxes are pathetic however, so then I would remove those and instead implement a vendor that sells proper PvP gear (Basically just Greens that you get from the PvP boxes currently, but instead they have socket slots on them; 3 slots on helm/chest/legs, two on gloves/belt/boots/weapons, one on neck/cloak/bracers/rings, none on trinkets).

This gear would also work similar to heirlooms (only in PvP), in the sense that it will always scale to the max level of the current bracket that you're in. (even if you level out of the bracket and into the new one e.g. gear obtained at lv15 is still usable at lv26 after you've leveled out of the 10-19 bracket).

I would then remove the PvP boxes entirely and instead make PvP reward a fair amount of the aforementioned currency so that levelers can buy a piece of gear (or [3] sockets) every time they win a PvP match.

Losing a match would not give enough currency for a piece of gear, but you'd be able to buy [1] socket.

This alone should be enough to put levelers on a fairer level playing field when they face twinks.

Yes, BiS twinks will still be stronger. As they SHOULD be, as BiS twinks have done more difficult content outside of PvP and worked far harder to obtain their gear.

The aim here is that the levelers are incentivized to gear up and have them not be total pushovers anymore.

This system would be perfect as it sets the leveler up for Endgame PvP as well, as this is the exact gearing method used at max level; At Endgame to get in to PvP you need to farm a full set of honor gear first. Well, this is similar however gear in leveling brackets is far cheaper, quicker and easier to obtain.

Another point that I am trying to make here is that it's better to raise up the levelers than it is to nerf the twinks.

Why piss off one group when you can make both happy? ..and it doesn't even require that much development either.

 

[ohti]

I'm not sure what PvP you've been playing but when I could queue for PvP at 25 in Shadowlands pre-patch (I think it was?) ..I absolutely obliterated lv20s.

Surely 29s would have done the same.

I came back to the bracket in Legion when they were merged and 29s had a considerable advantage over 20s and I and many others still played 20s.

I never said 29s didn't have an advantage over 20s, I said 29s (or 24s) have never killed 20s nor would they ever.

Playing the bracket during SL prepatch because you had no other choice after being squished from 60 is anecdotal. During that time, plenty of people still played 20s, so I'm not sure what pvp you were playing.

 

[Chops]

I don't think that it's scummy at all that someone who gathers gear and enchants in an MMORPG; where gear progression is the very core and center of the concept of the genre itself, will be far stronger in PvP than someone who refuses to get gear before they enter PvP.

This only holds at end game. And I absolutely agree with you that people with better gear and higher level characters should out perform people in worse gear and on lower level toons. I said as much.

But twinks being in random BGs with levelers is... scummy. Sorry buddy. The difference between our brackets and end game is that the sheer accumulation of bis in every slot on a low level toon just isnt possible in that "core way an MMO should work" kind of way. In the process of accumulating that gear, we should level out. But thanks to starter/vet account hijinks and Blizzards own stupidity via XP-off npcs, we don't.

This is our endgame and we are geared as such. But its the beginning of the game for most everyone else and they're just trying to level. We're the weirdos, man. We arent supposed to be there. But we've found a way to do it and to an extent, the bracket relies on ruining the casual good time of levelers to exist. That is scummy. There's no real way around it. We still do it, the difference is that some of us at least recognize and own it.

You can soothe your ego by telling yourself "ah but I worked so very hard for this gear, I deserve to crush these kids. PVP is about winning!" and yea you're right, Walter. But you're still an asshole. You're the extremely sweaty guy at the church softball game going spikes up into 2nd because "this is a game and if you're gonna play, its for keeps!"

 

[Razien]

I never said 29s didn't have an advantage over 20s, I said 29s (or 24s) have never killed 20s nor would they ever.

I don't get what you're trying to say with "29s will never kill 20s" -- are you just that sure of your strength xD?

Playing the bracket during SL prepatch because you had no other choice after being squished from 60 is anecdotal. During that time, plenty of people still played 20s, so I'm not sure what pvp you were playing.

The PvP I was playing was me fighting lv20 twinks. I had no trouble killing them at all, so I don't see how a 29 twink would not be able to kill a lv20 if they were to face off in bgs either.

..Am I missing something here?

The difference between our brackets and end game is that the sheer accumulation of bis in every slot on a low level toon just isnt possible in that "core way an MMO should work" kind of way. In the process of accumulating that gear, we should level out.

I see what you're saying, that's why I proposed, in my second post, to give levelers an easier time gearing up. I firmly believe that the answer to everyone's problem lies in raising up the levelers rather than ruining or banning Twinks.

The solution could just be as simple as just giving the levelers an easy and quick way to gear up and be on-par with, at least, the "average random twink".

This is our endgame and we are geared as such.

The amount of absolute BiS twinks with insane gear such as scaled BoE world epics, gf'd enchants and all that are the minority. From what I've seen the 20-29 bracket seems to be about 75% people with green socket gear, 20% players with some best in slot items and maybe 5% max BIS Twinks. Nevermind the people who only play f2p and are usually even weaker than a regular twink.

While I obviously have no concrete basis for these random numbers, my point is that the "average twink" is not max best in slot. True BiS players are a rarity.. for good reason, of course.

Therefore giving levelers the ability to get a full set of socket gear from the start (even if said gear just has a crit/haste stat layout) just from doing bgs or sending the currency from their mains to their alt, Having that gear which also scales with them as they level up would already be enough to raise them up to be at least strong enough to compete with the "average twink".

We also don't really live in a world where even a BiS twink can one-shot entire groups of players at the snap of a finger as you could do back in Classic / Tbc / Wrath, with the exception being obvious outliers as Hunters (eww) and Destruction Warlocks, but I still maintain that that is more of a class balancing issue than it is Twink related, since I still could one-shot people as a non-twink hunter when I was leveling one two weeks ago.

At the very least I believe that this is something they should at least give a try. For all we know it could just be this simple.

You can soothe your ego by telling yourself "ah but I worked so very hard for this gear, I deserve to crush these kids. PVP is about winning!" and yea you're right, Walter. But you're still an asshole. You're the extremely sweaty guy at the church softball game going spikes up into 2nd because "this is a game and if you're gonna play, its for keeps!"

While a funny anecdote, I never sought to soothe anyone's ego or to downplay the situation. I also never stated that "I deserve to crush these kids", since I've always been in favor of everyone having a shot.

Again, I merely believe that we should be raising levelers up, not banning or nerfing Twinks and thus making the game even more bland, so your last paragraph seems to strike me as nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, tbh.

 

[ohti]

..Am I missing something here?

Yeah. This entire convo is about the state of the bracket in a world where queues are merged, not whether or not your level 25 can beat a level 20 in a dual

 

[Razien]

Yeah. This entire convo is about the state of the bracket in a world where queues are merged, not whether or not your level 25 can beat a level 20 in a dual

I am thinking in exactly those terms. If you'd like we can do a few wargames and see exactly how a 20 compares to a lv25.

 

[ohti]

I am thinking in exactly those terms. If you'd like we can do a few wargames and see exactly how a 20 compares to a lv25.

That's not what we're talking about lmfao

 

[Razien]

That's not what we're talking about lmfao

That's what I meant with am I missing something? Because if the brackets were to be re-merged like how the thread suggests then the result would be me fighting 20s in random bgs, same as how it would be with doing a wargame, correct?

 

[Goesid]

the point hes trying to make is that the people who level up beyond 20 are shit and thats the reason they lvl up, and they get smashed up because theyre still garbage even 9 levels wont save them, and thats been true historically but idk about the future.

 

[ohti]

That's what I meant with am I missing something? Because if the brackets were to be re-merged like how the thread suggests then the result would be me fighting 20s in random bgs, same as how it would be with doing a wargame, correct?

Holy shit, no. Once again, as I've already stated twice now, I'm NOT saying that higher levels DON'T have a disadvantage, they do. This entire convo, which you inserted yourself into, was about the state of 20s in a world where the queues are merged. In a world where the queue is merged, both levelers and twinks alike get into the same BGs (like they did in Legion), so it would be a mix of 20s, 29s, and levelers.

The debate is whether or not the presence of 29s would stop people from playing 20s, aka 'killing 20s', which the answer to is: it would discourage tourists, but the real 20s that have been there the whole time will remain. In other words: no

Nobody is arguing whether a 29 is stronger than a 20 or not.

 

[CigNus]

the point hes trying to make is that the people who level up beyond 20 are shit

I have a weird feeling this only exists in the 20s bracket because of the F2P Mentality. pre-wrath(? 3.3.5 right?) everyone was x9... no one twinked at level 20 because it was "cooler" right? was it not because "that would give me the most advantage and gear" ???

 

[ohti]

I have a weird feeling this only exists in the 20s bracket because of the F2P Mentality. pre-cata everyone was x9... no one twinked at level 20 because it was "cooler" right? was it not because "that would give me the most advantage and gear" ???

It exists and thrives solely because it's a free way to play the game

 

[Goesid]

I have a weird feeling this only exists in the 20s bracket because of the F2P Mentality. pre-cata everyone was x9... no one twinked at level 20 because it was "cooler" right? was it not because "that would give me the most advantage and gear" ???

ehm, theres like a whole subforum dedicated to level 10s, some of them have been around awhile. Like way longer than 20s.

 

[Razien]

The debate is whether or not the presence of 29s would stop people from playing 20s, aka 'killing 20s', which the answer to is no.

Nobody is arguing whether a 29 is stronger than a 20 or not.

Oh my god you're so vague.

You could've just said "No I didn't mean kill them in a fight, I meant 'killing the bracket' if we had to fight 29s", and I would've understood what you were talking about from the start.

But got'cha now XD

 

[Chops]

You could've just said "No I didn't mean kill them in a fight, I meant 'killing the bracket' if we had to fight 29s", and I would've understood what you were talking about from the start.

um...

Yeah. This entire convo is about the state of the bracket in a world where queues are merged, not whether or not your level 25 can beat a level 20 in a dual

 

[Razien]

I have a weird feeling this only exists in the 20s bracket because of the F2P Mentality. pre-cata everyone was x9... no one twinked at level 20 because it was "cooler" right? was it not because "that would give me the most advantage and gear" ???

Free to Play has always been a thing. I'm not sure since when but.. it's been a few years. As far as I'm aware it's always been lv20 too.