What would you give up, for Blizzard to recombine PvP queues?

[toskosa]

f Blizzard removed enchants/procs/effects/set bonuses etc from PVP we'd actually be pretty balanced down here

I don't think they need to even do that to balance things out though, like my above post mentions those changes are imo all we need to make the lvling brackets very balanced ( outside of class balancing of course) I can't really think of any enchants or trinkets that are so overpowering they are mandatory that cant be obtained fairly easily by any one lvlers included. The only enchant that even comes to mind is crusader which was nerfed down to 40 str.

Like my general idea is to have wod gear scaling back ( at 20-29 all gear scales to ilvl 34, a lvl 29 blue item including gear that goes over that ilvl) up until maybe the 50-59 bracket. One of the biggest issues lvlers have is that they cant keep pieces of gear near there lvl, which hurts overall. Why would you enchant a pair of gloves if you might replace it in 3-4 lvls? this method gives an incentive to enchant gear Because you can use it until the 50s.

I don't want to see things like enchants/trinkets removed it just removes another aspect of the rpg. the set bonuses we have currently though should be removed to keep them in line with all the others though. I can't imagine that's intentional. game knowledge should be rewarded not punished. New players can learn just like the rest of us did they are not invalids that being said the power gap could def be reduced and I believe my post is a great way to do so while also leaving the rpg aspects of the game intact.

tldr go back to wod gearing let me keep my trinkets/enchants nerf outliers like gems/sockets.

 

[Ivo]

I'm not talking about 20s vs 29s. It's the levelers that will get stomped. Even among twinks it will be pretty unplayable with the stun hammer, sp gear and consumables. You see how strong some classes are right now with the scaled down stats, imagine with full stats at 29 and extra spells.

 

[Goesid]

also 25 talent on classes like mm and destro, is gonna increase their one shot ability by alot, and they already have a pretty good one shot ability.

 

[Chops]

It's the levelers that will get stomped.

oh, i thought you were saying 29 twinks would kill 20s altogether.

Levelers get stomped anyway. Like, right now levelers might as well just be mobs. And its kinda always been that way. If the concern is "wont someone think of the levelers" then it might be time for us, as a community, to think about not queing random BGs at all. But until we're willing to do that, we gotta at least own the fact that twinks v levelers is always going to be toxic and accept that our existence alongside levelers is... pretty scummy.

Whether we're one shotting them now for 3k chaos bolts or one shotting them in a hypothetical future for 5k chaos bolts their experience is the same. They're merrily running along, eager to cap a flag, then a big green booger hits them and theyre watching a rez timer. Not entirely sure they care how much it overkilled them for.

I happen to be of the opinion that stat templates are a bit too much and just think if they remove enchants, proc effects and set bonuses, it would be fine. Those are the biggest contributors to twink power level. And if I'm being real honest, they should probably level gate epic gems.

Sure, a level 29 twink is gonna have some stat advantage via socket gear and whatnot but thats as it should be. It's an MMO after all, not a MOBA. People with better gear on higher level toons should be performing better (assuming equal skill, etc yadda yadda lemme make sure I get all my qualifiers in so Goesid doesnt yell at me)

Like my general idea is to have wod gear scaling back

I hated WOD scaling because it lead to a situation where BIS was some level 5 quest reward that gave +2 str, +1 stm or some shit but when it scaled up in BGs gave like 1.5x the stats of other gear. So all those quest rewards you threw out while you were leveling 5 years ago? Tough shit man, theyre BIS. New twinks get BIS twinks and everyone else either has to reroll or be in bad gear. And then its just ugly when you que into a BG and have to put on a bunch of gear thats shitty as hell but because of scaling is actually BIS for the next half hour. And it didnt really solve the gear disparity issue. Levelers still wore whatever quest rewards they had most recently got while twinks went and found those overstatted level 6 quest items and wore those.

See above but I'm of the opinion that the game should work in a reasonably predictable manner. If you go into a BG at level X4, you should expect to be underpowered compared to someone at X9. They (in theory) have better gear than you, they have better stats and they have more abilities. If people expect to compete on a level playing field regardless of character level or gearing, theyre playing the wrong genre.

 

[Goesid]

Its also worth noting that US has far more levelers than EU and the Russians have far less than EU, if you only played vs Russians you would become oil before you got bloodthirsty.

 

[Ivo]

Isn't RU alliance dead lately?

 

[Goesid]

Isn't RU alliance dead lately?

nah they pop often and are usually stacked with hunters and theres no levelers there.

 

[Ivo]

nah they pop often and are usually stacked with hunters and theres no levelers there.
View attachment 21023

What would you rather play against? Korean or russian premade?

 

[Goesid]

What would you rather play against? Korean or russian premade?

koreans are annoying because its usually 10 man with more drums than Neil Peart playing YYZ but after seeing some korean 5 mans I kinda get why the 10 man is needed. Russians play like rating is on the line. Either way the depending factor is probably what the horde team is.

 

[Ivo]

So I guess it's safe to say you like koreans more. Loyalty noted.

 

[Chops]

more drums than Neil Peart playing YYZ

I get that reference!

 

[ohti]

Legion temps. We still farmed 29s anyways, 20s would do it again, no biggie

Also, a history lesson for the SL twinks saying that 29s would kill 20s: they've never killed 20s before and they wouldn't kill 20s this time either

 

[CigNus]

Legion temps. We still farmed 29s anyways, 20s would do it again, no biggie

Also, a history lesson for the SL twinks saying that 29s would kill 20s: they've never killed 20s before and they wouldn't kill 20s this time either

you dont think that if SL gearing/BG Scaling/brackets remained the same, but they combined the queues (xpoff + on) that people wouldn't abandon their 20s for 29s?

 

[Chops]

that people wouldn't abandon their 20s for 29s?

some people would. cool people wouldnt

always and forever #Fuck29s

 

[CigNus]

some people would. cool people wouldnt

there are so many un-cool people though

 

[ohti]

you dont think that if SL gearing/BG Scaling/brackets remained the same, but they combined the queues (xpoff + on) that people wouldn't abandon their 20s for 29s?

I came back to the bracket in Legion when they were merged and 29s had a considerable advantage over 20s and I and many others still played 20s. Hell, even during the first 6 months of BFA when queues were merged and templates were off.

As long as an account without gametime is able to participate in PvP, I guarantee that 20s aren't going anywhere.

Tourists will go elsewhere or reroll 29s (as they do, hence the name) but they have never been what keeps 20s alive.

 

[Kirise]

Lotta good input here -- thank you, all!

At first, I was leaning toward debuffing twinks, but people made a good point that doing so runs counter to the whole concept of min/maxing in a game like this. The joy of twinking for most people comes from min/maxing, and it feels better to not contradict this fundamental aspect of the game.

In that same vein, I'm recalcitrant to nerf or slap level requirements on gems and enchants. Yes, a lot of power comes from those, but so does customization. Shadowlands is the first time I've twinked seriously since early WoD (with a brief stint in BfA), and the customization for twinks currently sits at an all time high. Never before have we seen so many options. Beyond that, choosing between consistent stats, on-use procs, and semi-random procs makes for more exciting gameplay, which is why crit and abilities with cooldowns exist in the first place.

Therefore, let's come at it from the other direction. Buff levelers, like we do in dungeons. I don't know if 15% is the right number, but that's a dial Blizzard could play with and not confuse levelers in the process, while still giving twinks plenty of room to specialize.

I like this approach especially for capped brackets (20s and 50s), because technically their XP is still "on", giving 20s room to compete with the inevitably appearing/returning 29s, and 50s the opportunity to get merged into a 50-59 bracket and retain a stat edge.

Yes, people can make leveler twinks to take advantage of the buff, but dialed in right, a PvP instance stats buff will make the amount of time and effort required too much to be worthwhile. Moreover, a stats buff will lessen the gap between twink levelers and regular levelers. Stat inflation always brings the greatest relative benefit to the worst-geared characters.

Twinking became detrimental to battlegrounds and arenas in BfA because the sheer power disparity between twinks and levelers dissuaded levelers from playing that aspect of the game. That same gulf exists now in the capped brackets in Shadowlands. Close the power gulf between twinks and levelers, and twinks could return to a more aspirational role. Yes, that would run counter to why most people twink i.e. to beat up on levelers with gear advantage alone, but I would consider that a healthy pruning.

 

[Ivo]

Yes, people can make leveler twinks to take advantage of the buff, but dialed in right, a PvP instance stats buff will make the amount of time and effort required too much to be worthwhile.

Try using mop crafter gear for lvl 23 with gems and enchants. With a bit of setup, you'll have enough items for multiple leveling twinks in no time. You can exit BGs before they end to prevent some XP gain then log a second leveling twink so you can avoid the 15m deserter.
It gets kind of close to a real 29 twink although there is a lot of room for improvement.

 

[Kirise]

Try using mop crafter gear for lvl 23 with gems and enchants.

Level 23 MoP crafter gear? I'm not familiar -- would you point me in the right direction?

 

[Goesid]

Level 23 MoP crafter gear? I'm not familiar -- would you point me in the right direction?

Rank II of the crafters mark. That you would use to make dragonling.
Mop crafting has alot of pvp crafted sets with socket slots.